Someone needs to explain to me why Floyd doesn't deserve to be mentioned with ATGs

[Beanflicker]

I don't have a problem with Floyd being designated an ATG. But people get carried away with the comparisons. I invite people on here to obtain and watch SRL's fights against Duran, Hearns, Hagler, and Benitez. Only THEN can you pass judgement objectively. Those were glory days in boxing, and all of the above were ATGs as well. Floyd deserves the credit he's getting... but do some research before you annoint him The Greatest Ever in Boxing.

Well hell, I don't claim to be the #1 boxing historian out there, but I'm an avid collector of boxing tapes. I have career sets of just about everyone I've mentioned here (Hearns, Hagler, SRL, Duran, Pernell, Benitez, ect). I'm also a self-professed SRR FANATIC, and I think over the years I've seen just about every one of his fights that was filmed. So even though I'm not the most knowledgable guy here, I do my homework, and I'm not talking out of my ass with some fan boy Floyd nuthuggery.

All I'm saying is when I pop a Floyd fight into my DVD player, I see the same greatness that I see when I pop in the fights of other ATGs. When valuing a guy as a fighter, statistics and resume is fine, but at the end of the day it comes down to your in-ring work. And I contend that not only does Floyd match the in-ring work of a lot of these ATGs, he actually exceeds the vast majority of them.

Whenever I ask why Floyd doesn't belong in the same catagory with a guy like SRR, I always get the same answers...

"Well he ducked a bunch of guys."

Who did he duck? And pretty much every ATG (including SRR and SRL) has been accused of ducking someone or other.

"Well the old timers fought 100's of times, Floyd only fought 40 times."

Well, these guys fought before the time of multi-million dollar pay days. I doubt SRR fought several times a month because he wanted to. He was like Floyd, he was an arrogant master athlete who had a taste for fine living. Just because they had it "tougher" than today's greats does not mean necessarily that they were better.

"Those guys had better resumes than Floyd"

Maybe so. I would argue how guys like Jake LaMotta, Joey Archer and Bobo Olsen were better than guys like JLC, Hatton, Mosley, ect but thats for another thread I guess. But what is tough adversity good for other than exposing whether or not a fighter has the certain qualities that make for a champion? Qualities like heart, determination, toughness, mental composure, ability to take punishment, adapt, ect. Floyd has shown all of these qualities in battle, so what more can you ask of him?

[Beanflicker]

I think your going way over the top, just because he beat a Shane Mosley. Who has been battered by Vernon Forrest in the past, outboxed handily twice by Winky Wright, and looked less than impressive lately vs Cotto, Mayorga.

Was it a great performance ? yes but you need to just calm down, and realize what your saying. Just because he beat a 38 year old Shane Mosley, doesn't mean he beats Hearns, Leonard. Thats just crazy talk.

This isn't sparked by the win over Mosley, which went pretty much as I expected it to sans the 2nd round. It was sparked more by the fact that Floyd was badly rocked (which he hasn't been in about 6 or 7 years) and instead of folding he showed a champion's composure. A lot of people question his heart, and I think that once again he showed that he is a tough guy when he needs to be.

Hearns is also an absolute SUCKER for a counter right hand.

[El Kabong]

Beanflicker....if Hearns caught Floyd like that there would have been no need to follow up.


I will say the main thing I was disappointed in is Floyd STILL never looks like he has been in a fight!!! I want his face busted up at least, an eye swole up, a big cut, a broken jaw....SOMETHING but nope he never gets dinged up. Those wobbles were satisfying to watch though....and that is sad.

[Hunter]

Who has Mayweather ducked?

Whether he ducked opposition is subjective but it doesnt always seem that Floyd's top objective is fighting the best. He didnt fight Hatton at 140 and didnt seem in any kind of rush to fight Margarito or Cotto back a few years ago when the fans demanded those fights. Now with the demands for rigorous blood testing, Floyd, in some peoples minds will appear as though he is afraid of Pac. Personally I believe Floyd would dominate Pac and should just take the dam fight.

Why did floyd have to fight Hatton at 140? I believe Hatton needed that fight more than Floyd, Floyd was ranked no 1 P4P best in the world so why would he fight at someone elses weight? Hatton wanted to prove he was the best so he had to beat the best at their own weight. We all saw what Mosley did to Margarito, Mayweather would of beaten the shit out of him and same with Cotto. He is a different class all together. I think you can only say someone ducked a fighter when the fighter they supposedly ducked is actually a threat. How was Margarito, Hatton at 140 and Cotto a threat? What did we actually see that showed this guys could hang with floyd at all? Cotto would of been systematically dismantled and tkoed very similiar to what Floyd did to hatton.

I am not saying anyone would have beaten Floyd but if Floyd wanted respect and to be considered an ATG or the best ever he should have fought the best fighter at each division when he moved up. Hatton was the king at 140, Mayweather moved up past 140 but didnt fight Hatton, when Floyd was at 147 he fought Judah who had just lost instead of Margarito or Cottto. This is why he gets flamed in the press and people dont hail him as great. Yeah at this point I agree he would have probably dominated all of these guys because they were later exposed but imagine if Floyd would have KO'd Hatton at 140 as he moved up to Welter than beat Cotto while he was undefeated and than Beat down Margarito when he was supposedly unbeatable? Floyd would be getting alot more respect now.

[clintuk]

There's a fair point to be made on both sides really, Floyd does make a lot of todays fighters look amateurish, but sure he has ducked some fighters who, although may have been exposed now, were deemed to be the best at their weight at the time.

There's no real definite way to compare him though with SRL, SRR and co. cos he never fought them of course. Sure they fought better fighters in a better era but, styles make fights, just cos you beat one fighter doesnt mean you beat the fighter deemed less of a fighter than him. So maybe Floyd beats them all, maybe he gets found out by all the ATG's, who knows. If that makes sense at all haha.

Theres a post above me that makes a very valid point, if Floyd had fought Cotto, Margarito and co. when they were at the top of their game...I think now we would have expected him to beat them, and now, he would definitely have more of a shot at being considered an all time great.

Imagine the PPV buys for Floyd v SRL, jesus!

[JazMerkin]

Floyd already is an ATG, it's just about how high he is. I don't think anyone but the biggest Floyd hater could deny him a spot in the Top 30, and you could make a decent argument already for Top 10.

Like I said in another thread, SRR, SRL and even Duran were all accused of avoiding certain fighters (although I don't believe it's true in the case of Duran), it hasn't stopped them being considered the best there has ever been.

[ICB]

Floyd already is an ATG, it's just about how high he is. I don't think anyone but the biggest Floyd hater could deny him a spot in the Top 30, and you could make a decent argument already for Top 10.

Like I said in another thread, SRR, SRL and even Duran were all accused of avoiding certain fighters (although I don't believe it's true in the case of Duran), it hasn't stopped them being considered the best there has ever been.

I know about SRR supposedly avoiding Charles Burley, and SRL supposedly avoiding Aaron Pryor. But who did Roberto Duran supposedly avoid ? i thought he fought pretty much everyone didn't he ?

[JazMerkin]

Floyd already is an ATG, it's just about how high he is. I don't think anyone but the biggest Floyd hater could deny him a spot in the Top 30, and you could make a decent argument already for Top 10.

Like I said in another thread, SRR, SRL and even Duran were all accused of avoiding certain fighters (although I don't believe it's true in the case of Duran), it hasn't stopped them being considered the best there has ever been.

I know about suppoedly SRR avoiding Charles Burley, and SRL supposedly ducking Aaron Pryor. But who did Roberto Duran supposedly duck ? i thought he fought pretty much everyone didn't he ?

Pryor again. Like I said, I don't personally buy that he ducked him, I think Duran would have taken on anybody, but I have heard that one thrown around.

Robinson did avoid Burley like the plague and was very careful about picking his fights (hence why he reportedly never gave Jose Basora a rematch when he got a debatable draw)

Leonard really did pick his fights, certainly following his win over Hearns. Leonard & Robinson are two of my favourite fighters, but it's amazing the rose-tinted spectacles many current fans who are unaware of boxing history view them through (not accusing you of that Ice, just a lot of people on here).

[ICB]

Floyd already is an ATG, it's just about how high he is. I don't think anyone but the biggest Floyd hater could deny him a spot in the Top 30, and you could make a decent argument already for Top 10.

Like I said in another thread, SRR, SRL and even Duran were all accused of avoiding certain fighters (although I don't believe it's true in the case of Duran), it hasn't stopped them being considered the best there has ever been.

I know about suppoedly SRR avoiding Charles Burley, and SRL supposedly ducking Aaron Pryor. But who did Roberto Duran supposedly duck ? i thought he fought pretty much everyone didn't he ?

Pryor again. Like I said, I don't personally buy that he ducked him, I think Duran would have taken on anybody, but I have heard that one thrown around.

Robinson did avoid Burley like the plague and was very careful about picking his fights (hence why he reportedly never gave Jose Basora a rematch when he got a debatable draw)

Leonard really did pick his fights, certainly following his win over Hearns. Leonard & Robinson are two of my favourite fighters, but it's amazing the rose-tinted spectacles many current fans who are unaware of boxing history view them through (not accusing you of that Ice, just a lot of people on here).

Yea i agree somewhat Wilfredo Benitez, Tommy Hearns. Should of had immediate rematches, and the Marvin Hagler fight should of happened 3 years before it actually did. Aswell as avoiding some of the young guns, but i can't blame him for that.

I don't really know about SRR just alot of rumours and ETC, i heard Charles Burley sparked out SRR in sparring. But thats probably a myth, SRR also supposedly avoided another well known fighter, but his name escapes me at the moment.

But even the greatest fighters have at somepoint picked fights carefully.

[JazMerkin]

I know about suppoedly SRR avoiding Charles Burley, and SRL supposedly ducking Aaron Pryor. But who did Roberto Duran supposedly duck ? i thought he fought pretty much everyone didn't he ?

Pryor again. Like I said, I don't personally buy that he ducked him, I think Duran would have taken on anybody, but I have heard that one thrown around.

Robinson did avoid Burley like the plague and was very careful about picking his fights (hence why he reportedly never gave Jose Basora a rematch when he got a debatable draw)

Leonard really did pick his fights, certainly following his win over Hearns. Leonard & Robinson are two of my favourite fighters, but it's amazing the rose-tinted spectacles many current fans who are unaware of boxing history view them through (not accusing you of that Ice, just a lot of people on here).

Yea i agree somewhat Wilfredo Benitez, Tommy Hearns. Should of had immediate rematches, and the Marvin Hagler fight should of happened 3 years before it actually did.

I don't really know about SRR just alot of rumours or ETC, i heard he sparked out SRR in sparring. But thats probably a myth, he also supposedly avoided another well known fighter, but his name escapes me at the moment.

But even the greatest fighters have at somepoint picked fights carefully.

Exactly my point Ice, they've all done it, yet I've seen so many people dismiss Mayweather & Pacquiao as being ATGs off not fighting far less noteworthy guys than many of these greats have missed off.

I agree about the Burley sparking him out myth, although what I would say is that Robinson never did well with quicker counter-punchers. However, I think more likely Burley beat him up a bit and it became exaggerated, but the fact is he wanted none of it.

I'll give Leonard a pass on the Benitez fight, as he moved straight up to Light-Middle, and he did take on Duran & Hearns after that. But Hearns deserved a rematch sometime before 1989, and he took the piss with the shit he pulled with Hagler. Not to say he avoided anybody, but he always made sure things were favourable to him.

You won't find any fighter who's called the shots who hasn't done the same.

[Majesty]

Why did floyd have to fight Hatton at 140? I believe Hatton needed that fight more than Floyd, Floyd was ranked no 1 P4P best in the world so why would he fight at someone elses weight? Hatton wanted to prove he was the best so he had to beat the best at their own weight. We all saw what Mosley did to Margarito, Mayweather would of beaten the shit out of him and same with Cotto. He is a different class all together. I think you can only say someone ducked a fighter when the fighter they supposedly ducked is actually a threat. How was Margarito, Hatton at 140 and Cotto a threat? What did we actually see that showed this guys could hang with floyd at all? Cotto would of been systematically dismantled and tkoed very similiar to what Floyd did to hatton.

I completely agree, all of the 'Mayweather beaters' Floyd has allegedly dodged have been exposed as overrated hype products pretty much.

The way it seems to work is that Floyd beats up someone so that was clearly a handpicked opponent and the guys he hasn't fought yet are the world beaters.

There is NOBODY from superfeatherweight to welterweight who was around during Floyd's career that could have beaten him.

Look at the tests, Coralles annihilated, Hatton humiliated, Mosely schooled, these are all great fighters and the got there asses handed to them by Floyd.

Was not the case...and history will read it as mosley was 38 and got old..couldn't even do what made him shane mosley his whole career..

Because Floyd didn't allow him to. If Floyd had ran and danced away and allowed Mosley to regain himself like Mosley thought he would and fought Mosley's pace like Margarito did it would have ended the same way. Mayweather pressuring Mosley after he was stunned and into the 3rd round onwards is the reason Mosley got old.

If Mosley got old Mayweather put him in the rocking chair.

You can't say "mosley got old" in an attempt to take credit from Floyd. he sure as heck didn't look old in the second round, but Mayweather pressures him back and takes the fight away from him and its "Mosley got old" yeah like father time decided that he was gonna keep Mosley young for 2 rounds only and Mayweather had nothing to do with it. If Mosley got old, Mayweather put him there.

There was a reason he could do what made him Shane Mosley for years against Margarito yet couldn't against Mayweather.

Because Margarito fought his pace and it allowed him to, while Floyd took it away from him, simple as that. Mosley couldn't do what made him Shane Mosley because Mayweather didn't allow him to.