Are we reaching the end days of humanity?

[Kev]

The point is that Israel always belonged to the Jews. It was plainly prophecised in the Bible that they would be returning and that no other nation should build there. It's not like the Arabs weren't aware of this, along with the rest of the world. Plus Isreal is a tiny place, no bigger than Wales. It's only the absolute inhumanity of the Arab states that offer no support or migration opportunties to the Palestinians that cause them to continue to the suffer the way they do.

You are out of your goddamn mind if you think the Bible, which has (or should have) no bearing on anything regarding the Palestinian situation, is legitimate justification for what happened to the Palestinian Arabs. Furthermore, you're even more misinformed (I'm trying to be nice here) if you think that the other Arab nation opening their borders and accepting hundreds of thousands of refugees is an acceptable or realistic solution to the problem for anyone, including the Palestinians.

I'm just going to address that last point, because your claim about Biblican justification is so outlandish that I can't believe you, someone whose intelligence and perspective I normally respect and appreciate, actually believe it. By extension, I assume you'd be fine with all manner of fucked up persecutions and laws because they are authorize by a book which was composed under dubious circumstances thousands of years ago.

First, the Palestinians don't want to be incorporated into Egypt, Syria, Iran etc. and they should not be forced to. They want the homeland that they, fairly justifiably, feel was robbed from them and is now controlled by an extremely repressive and fundamentally racist group of colonizers. That is not a practical solution, obviously, but to expect them to just lay down and accept their fate is ludicrous. Secondly, no neigboring Arab nation would ever just accept that many Palestinian refugees, with their own political agenda's and power-structures into their country; just look what happened to Jordan in the 1980s. The problem with the Palestinian - Isaeli conflict (according to myself and others much smarter than I) is that there is no readily available solution to the problem. The entire situation is a goddamn mess and it has been since the First World War. A two-state solution is the only hope for peace, but even then it is extremely doubtful that the two sides could come to any agreement, especially with Israel (largely as a result of the U.S.) holding the majority of the power.

Sorry if this came across as harsh, as I'm sure it did, but I honestly could not be more fundamentally opposed to your perspective on this manner. I tried to avoid replying, but I could not help myself.

Nah it doesn't come across as harsh mate, nothing divides more than religious opinion.

You will think I'm crazy of course but I'd actually be scared if Israel ever compromised and gave up some of their land to the Palestinians as the Bible makes it clear their borders and what was given to them by God, and commanded by him that they keep.

[Oggie]

The point is that Israel always belonged to the Jews. It was plainly prophecised in the Bible that they would be returning and that no other nation should build there. It's not like the Arabs weren't aware of this, along with the rest of the world. Plus Isreal is a tiny place, no bigger than Wales. It's only the absolute inhumanity of the Arab states that offer no support or migration opportunties to the Palestinians that cause them to continue to the suffer the way they do.

You are out of your goddamn mind if you think the Bible, which has (or should have) no bearing on anything regarding the Palestinian situation, is legitimate justification for what happened to the Palestinian Arabs. Furthermore, you're even more misinformed (I'm trying to be nice here) if you think that the other Arab nation opening their borders and accepting hundreds of thousands of refugees is an acceptable or realistic solution to the problem for anyone, including the Palestinians.

I'm just going to address that last point, because your claim about Biblican justification is so outlandish that I can't believe you, someone whose intelligence and perspective I normally respect and appreciate, actually believe it. By extension, I assume you'd be fine with all manner of fucked up persecutions and laws because they are authorize by a book which was composed under dubious circumstances thousands of years ago.

First, the Palestinians don't want to be incorporated into Egypt, Syria, Iran etc. and they should not be forced to. They want the homeland that they, fairly justifiably, feel was robbed from them and is now controlled by an extremely repressive and fundamentally racist group of colonizers. That is not a practical solution, obviously, but to expect them to just lay down and accept their fate is ludicrous. Secondly, no neigboring Arab nation would ever just accept that many Palestinian refugees, with their own political agenda's and power-structures into their country; just look what happened to Jordan in the 1980s. The problem with the Palestinian - Isaeli conflict (according to myself and others much smarter than I) is that there is no readily available solution to the problem. The entire situation is a goddamn mess and it has been since the First World War. A two-state solution is the only hope for peace, but even then it is extremely doubtful that the two sides could come to any agreement, especially with Israel (largely as a result of the U.S.) holding the majority of the power.

Sorry if this came across as harsh, as I'm sure it did, but I honestly could not be more fundamentally opposed to your perspective on this manner. I tried to avoid replying, but I could not help myself.

Nah it doesn't come across as harsh mate, nothing divides more than religious opinion.

You will think I'm crazy of course but I'd actually be scared if Israel ever compromised and gave up some of their land to the Palestinians as the Bible makes it clear their borders and what was given to them by God, and commanded by him that they keep.

Hope this doesn't lead to the thread going off course, but anyway...
I wanted to ask you Bilbo, does your faith in God and Religion come from the fact that you were raised with devotion or was it a certain event in your life that shaped your belief? Or maybe a combination of the two?
No reason for asking except curiosity by the way.

[Kev]

The point is that Israel always belonged to the Jews. It was plainly prophecised in the Bible that they would be returning and that no other nation should build there. It's not like the Arabs weren't aware of this, along with the rest of the world. Plus Isreal is a tiny place, no bigger than Wales. It's only the absolute inhumanity of the Arab states that offer no support or migration opportunties to the Palestinians that cause them to continue to the suffer the way they do.

You are out of your goddamn mind if you think the Bible, which has (or should have) no bearing on anything regarding the Palestinian situation, is legitimate justification for what happened to the Palestinian Arabs. Furthermore, you're even more misinformed (I'm trying to be nice here) if you think that the other Arab nation opening their borders and accepting hundreds of thousands of refugees is an acceptable or realistic solution to the problem for anyone, including the Palestinians.

I'm just going to address that last point, because your claim about Biblican justification is so outlandish that I can't believe you, someone whose intelligence and perspective I normally respect and appreciate, actually believe it. By extension, I assume you'd be fine with all manner of fucked up persecutions and laws because they are authorize by a book which was composed under dubious circumstances thousands of years ago.

First, the Palestinians don't want to be incorporated into Egypt, Syria, Iran etc. and they should not be forced to. They want the homeland that they, fairly justifiably, feel was robbed from them and is now controlled by an extremely repressive and fundamentally racist group of colonizers. That is not a practical solution, obviously, but to expect them to just lay down and accept their fate is ludicrous. Secondly, no neigboring Arab nation would ever just accept that many Palestinian refugees, with their own political agenda's and power-structures into their country; just look what happened to Jordan in the 1980s. The problem with the Palestinian - Isaeli conflict (according to myself and others much smarter than I) is that there is no readily available solution to the problem. The entire situation is a goddamn mess and it has been since the First World War. A two-state solution is the only hope for peace, but even then it is extremely doubtful that the two sides could come to any agreement, especially with Israel (largely as a result of the U.S.) holding the majority of the power.

Sorry if this came across as harsh, as I'm sure it did, but I honestly could not be more fundamentally opposed to your perspective on this manner. I tried to avoid replying, but I could not help myself.

Nah it doesn't come across as harsh mate, nothing divides more than religious opinion.

You will think I'm crazy of course but I'd actually be scared if Israel ever compromised and gave up some of their land to the Palestinians as the Bible makes it clear their borders and what was given to them by God, and commanded by him that they keep.

Hope this doesn't lead to the thread going off course, but anyway...
I wanted to ask you Bilbo, does your faith in God and Religion come from the fact that you were raised with devotion or was it a certain event in your life that shaped your belief? Or maybe a combination of the two?
No reason for asking except curiosity by the way.

Actually neither. My faith in God arose through wanting to study evolution. i went out and bought all the books on evolution and paleontology to try and learn about and thought, 'actually this is bollocks', and then started looking at the Bible and creationism. It just fits the world model so much better imo.

I read most of Richard Dawkins works, and thought to myself, 'hang on, there is actually no evidence for evolution here, it's just religion and philosophy'. Funnily enough in his latest book he actually agrees, saying the following

' Once again, however, these three books, although they cleared away the stumbling blocks, did not present the actual evidence that evolution is a fact. My largest book, the Ancestor's Tale, laid out the full course of the history of life, as a sort of ancestor-seeking Chauecerian pilgramage going backwards in time, but it again assumed evolution is true.
Looking back on those books, I realized that the evidence for evolution was nowhere explicitly set out, and that this was a serious gap that I needed to close..'

That was was Dawkins' own words in the preface to his latest book, 'The Greatest Show on Earth' released last to celebrate the bicentennial year of Darwins birth and the 150 th anniversary of the publication of the Origins of Species.

So even Dawkins, the world's strongest and most famous evolutionist of the last 30 years admits that up until 2009 none of his books actually contained any evidence for evolution but rather just told the story.

So his is latest book different? Did he finally give us the evidence we craved? Well I guess that's for the reader to decide, but I bought it, read it, and it just convinced me further that evolution and atheism are the rantings of deluded loons.

I'm not religious, at all, I don't go to church, I certainly don't live a Christian life, but studying both sides over the last 20 years has left me totally convinced as to the authenticity of the Bible and the absolute cluelessness of those who seek to come up with alternative theories starting from, 'In the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded...'.

[Oggie]

The point is that Israel always belonged to the Jews. It was plainly prophecised in the Bible that they would be returning and that no other nation should build there. It's not like the Arabs weren't aware of this, along with the rest of the world. Plus Isreal is a tiny place, no bigger than Wales. It's only the absolute inhumanity of the Arab states that offer no support or migration opportunties to the Palestinians that cause them to continue to the suffer the way they do.

You are out of your goddamn mind if you think the Bible, which has (or should have) no bearing on anything regarding the Palestinian situation, is legitimate justification for what happened to the Palestinian Arabs. Furthermore, you're even more misinformed (I'm trying to be nice here) if you think that the other Arab nation opening their borders and accepting hundreds of thousands of refugees is an acceptable or realistic solution to the problem for anyone, including the Palestinians.

I'm just going to address that last point, because your claim about Biblican justification is so outlandish that I can't believe you, someone whose intelligence and perspective I normally respect and appreciate, actually believe it. By extension, I assume you'd be fine with all manner of fucked up persecutions and laws because they are authorize by a book which was composed under dubious circumstances thousands of years ago.

First, the Palestinians don't want to be incorporated into Egypt, Syria, Iran etc. and they should not be forced to. They want the homeland that they, fairly justifiably, feel was robbed from them and is now controlled by an extremely repressive and fundamentally racist group of colonizers. That is not a practical solution, obviously, but to expect them to just lay down and accept their fate is ludicrous. Secondly, no neigboring Arab nation would ever just accept that many Palestinian refugees, with their own political agenda's and power-structures into their country; just look what happened to Jordan in the 1980s. The problem with the Palestinian - Isaeli conflict (according to myself and others much smarter than I) is that there is no readily available solution to the problem. The entire situation is a goddamn mess and it has been since the First World War. A two-state solution is the only hope for peace, but even then it is extremely doubtful that the two sides could come to any agreement, especially with Israel (largely as a result of the U.S.) holding the majority of the power.

Sorry if this came across as harsh, as I'm sure it did, but I honestly could not be more fundamentally opposed to your perspective on this manner. I tried to avoid replying, but I could not help myself.

Nah it doesn't come across as harsh mate, nothing divides more than religious opinion.

You will think I'm crazy of course but I'd actually be scared if Israel ever compromised and gave up some of their land to the Palestinians as the Bible makes it clear their borders and what was given to them by God, and commanded by him that they keep.

Hope this doesn't lead to the thread going off course, but anyway...
I wanted to ask you Bilbo, does your faith in God and Religion come from the fact that you were raised with devotion or was it a certain event in your life that shaped your belief? Or maybe a combination of the two?
No reason for asking except curiosity by the way.

Actually neither. My faith in God arose through wanting to study evolution. i went out and bought all the books on evolution and paleontology to try and learn about and thought, 'actually this is bollocks', and then started looking at the Bible and creationism. It just fits the world model so much better imo.

I read most of Richard Dawkins works, and thought to myself, 'hang on, there is actually no evidence for evolution here, it's just religion and philosophy'. Funnily enough in his latest book he actually agrees, saying the following

' Once again, however, these three books, although they cleared away the stumbling blocks, did not present the actual evidence that evolution is a fact. My largest book, the Ancestor's Tale, laid out the full course of the history of life, as a sort of ancestor-seeking Chauecerian pilgramage going backwards in time, but it again assumed evolution is true.
Looking back on those books, I realized that the evidence for evolution was nowhere explicitly set out, and that this was a serious gap that I needed to close..'

That was was Dawkins' own words in the preface to his latest book, 'The Greatest Show on Earth' released last to celebrate the bicentennial year of Darwins birth and the 150 th anniversary of the publication of the Origins of Species.

So even Dawkins, the world's strongest and most famous evolutionist of the last 30 years admits that up until 2009 none of his books actually contained any evidence for evolution but rather just told the story.

So his is latest book different? Did he finally give us the evidence we craved? Well I guess that's for the reader to decide, but I bought it, read it, and it just convinced me further that evolution and atheism are the rantings of deluded loons.

I'm not religious, at all, I don't go to church, I certainly don't live a Christian life, but studying both sides over the last 20 years has left me totally convinced as to the authenticity of the Bible and the absolute cluelessness of those who seek to come up with alternative theories starting from, 'In the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded...'.

That is interesting man, thanks for sharing it.
Never heard of anyone finding God through the study of evolution before, good stuff. When people think of evolution today, they always consider it a scientific fact. Well, the general Joe on the street does anyway... but it is all based on theory really. Much like everything else in life, it is just humans searching for something to believe in!

Reminds me of a quote by the comedian Dylan Moran;
"And this evolution stuff is rubbish. I mean, think about it, it doesn't sound very smart... there has to be more than just 'Bang! *Monkey sounds* Honey I'm home!' Besides, it's much more interesting if the order is reversed..."

As for myself, I'm not really a firm believer (or disbeliever) in either of them really. I'm pretty much open to all possibilities, including those we (as of yet) know nothing about! The idea of a potential afterlife is a comforting thought though.

[paddy448]

thanks for the article on 2012 andre.