Very cool video regarding Israel's defensible borders and territory negotiations.

[Kev]

That video seems very much to a propaganda piece too. Nobody is talking about a return to pre 1950 borders anyway. The way to broker a 2 state solution is according to the 1967 accords.

How many threads are you going to start on this topic anyway Bilbo? I think you have now overtaken me!

An open letter from the Jews to the World, including you Miles.

[Gandalf]

That video seems very much to a propaganda piece too. Nobody is talking about a return to pre 1950 borders anyway. The way to broker a 2 state solution is according to the 1967 accords.

How many threads are you going to start on this topic anyway Bilbo? I think you have now overtaken me!

An open letter from the Jews to the World, including you Miles.

All I got from that video was a self righteous rabbi trying to tell us how persecuted the Jews were and that they eventually decided to live in the Middle East, surrounded by Arabs as a way of trying to avoid all that. Okay, there was more, but it was too brief and all too one sided anyway. I don't buy into his one sided take on it all whatsover. As a historian I know not to take one point of view at face value and a simple video is never going to alter my thinking in any serious way. I've already said that Israel now has a right to exist. America commited mass genocide in wiping out up to 100, 000, 000 native indians. Do we now say America is an illegitimate state? If you go back far enough most states are illegitimate in that sense. But now it exists, progress needs to be made.

Recent goings on are not the actions of a blameless, hard done by state. They are the actions of an unhinged and heavily subsidised baby brother of the worlds major (and itself rather unhinged) superpower. Jew's have been repressed throughout history, but that doesn't relate to now. The people in control in Israel have never been bullied and have only known being the bully.

[Gandalf]

But we live in very different times to the development of America. I am in no way saying it is justifiable to wipe out the Palestinians here. We live in a global age where you can't get away with such things so obviously and easily. Israel should look for other ways to integrate into the region, wiping out Palestinians isn't the way to go. An unwelcome guest shouldn't try to further upset the party by kicking over tables and shooting other invitees. You could at least say sorry and try to move on somewhat.

[Kev]

But we live in very different times to the development of America. I am in no way saying it is justifiable to wipe out the Palestinians here. We live in a global age where you can't get away with such things so obviously and easily. Israel should look for other ways to integrate into the region, wiping out Palestinians isn't the way to go. An unwelcome guest shouldn't try to further upset the party by kicking over tables and shooting other invitees. You could at least say sorry and try to move on somewhat.

When have the Jews ever tried to wipe out the Palestinians? The have blockaded for the last few years only because Hammas was firing 100 rockets every single day into their lands.

Imagine that Miles, 100 rockets every single day. How long would any other nation tolerate that before invading their neighbour?

And also, you are completely wrong about Jewish state being created illegally.

In fact it's probably the most legitimately created state ever being a legal creation of the United League of Nations, and not just because of the holocaust but (and this is written into the document) because they are recognised by the united nations of the world as having a unique historic right to claim the land as rightfully theirs.

I can't think of any other nation in the world ever that had such backing for its inception, seeing as all other nations were taken by force.

[Gandalf]

But we live in very different times to the development of America. I am in no way saying it is justifiable to wipe out the Palestinians here. We live in a global age where you can't get away with such things so obviously and easily. Israel should look for other ways to integrate into the region, wiping out Palestinians isn't the way to go. An unwelcome guest shouldn't try to further upset the party by kicking over tables and shooting other invitees. You could at least say sorry and try to move on somewhat.

When have the Jews ever tried to wipe out the Palestinians? The have blockaded for the last few years only because Hammas was firing 100 rockets every single day into their lands.

Imagine that Miles, 100 rockets every single day. How long would any other nation tolerate that before invading their neighbour?

And also, you are completely wrong about Jewish state being created illegally.

In fact it's probably the most legitimately created state ever being a legal creation of the United League of Nations, and not just because of the holocaust but (and this is written into the document) because they are recognised by the united nations of the world as having a unique historic right to claim the land as rightfully theirs.

I can't think of any other nation in the world ever that had such backing for its inception, seeing as all other nations were taken by force.

Bilbo, it is trying having to respond to you in these topics because we seem to disagree on pretty much everything everything. When have the Jews ever tried to wipe out Palestinians? Just tally up the death ratios of Jews against Arabs and see where that gets you. Admittedly they haven't gone the US/Nazi way of entire ethnic cleansing, but they have gone the way of full on apartheid and occupation. I would prefer a pistol to the head than years of pointless struggle and oppression at the hands of imperialist bullies and that is just what the Israeli's are. The elite are a seriously nasty bunch of people. Why can't you get that through your head? Why has the world opposed Israel on so many fronts and yet nothing gets done because of the US veto? Are you telling me the entire world has it wrong on Israel? That they haven't commited acts of international terrorism? That they don't purposely oppress the people in Gaza?

You say the blockade has been going on for the past couple of years. Simply not true, it's been going on for several years. It's just that the Israeli's used the wipe out of Gaza as an excuse to go public on it. I cannot excuse the use of rockets, but likewise can you justify the building of illegal settlements, the destruction of farmland, the restricted access to water supplies and so on. Are these the actions of benevolent colonialists? Israel likes to control Palestine in part because it relies upon on the water supplies, of course they don't want to let go in such an arid part of the world.

You are twisting my words on the illegitimacy of the Israel state (after all most states are illegitimate when we go to their roots like you agree), but UN backing doesn't neccessarily mean the correct decision has been made. It just means that the power brokers have reached agreement. How many resolutions have been passed against Israel and rejected by a single veto? Does that make all of them illegitimate? Of course not. And I'm sure you are not naive enough to think so either.

[Kev]

But we live in very different times to the development of America. I am in no way saying it is justifiable to wipe out the Palestinians here. We live in a global age where you can't get away with such things so obviously and easily. Israel should look for other ways to integrate into the region, wiping out Palestinians isn't the way to go. An unwelcome guest shouldn't try to further upset the party by kicking over tables and shooting other invitees. You could at least say sorry and try to move on somewhat.

When have the Jews ever tried to wipe out the Palestinians? The have blockaded for the last few years only because Hammas was firing 100 rockets every single day into their lands.

Imagine that Miles, 100 rockets every single day. How long would any other nation tolerate that before invading their neighbour?

And also, you are completely wrong about Jewish state being created illegally.

In fact it's probably the most legitimately created state ever being a legal creation of the United League of Nations, and not just because of the holocaust but (and this is written into the document) because they are recognised by the united nations of the world as having a unique historic right to claim the land as rightfully theirs.

I can't think of any other nation in the world ever that had such backing for its inception, seeing as all other nations were taken by force.

Bilbo, it is trying having to respond to you in these topics because we seem to disagree on pretty much everything everything. When have the Jews ever tried to wipe out Palestinians? Just tally up the death ratios of Jews against Arabs and see where that gets you. Admittedly they haven't gone the US/Nazi way of entire ethnic cleansing, but they have gone the way of full on apartheid and occupation. I would prefer a pistol to the head than years of pointless struggle and oppression at the hands of imperialist bullies and that is just what the Israeli's are. The elite are a seriously nasty bunch of people. Why can't you get that through your head? Why has the world opposed Israel on so many fronts and yet nothing gets done because of the US veto? Are you telling me the entire world has it wrong on Israel? That they haven't commited acts of international terrorism? That they don't purposely oppress the people in Gaza?

You say the blockade has been going on for the past couple of years. Simply not true, it's been going on for several years. It's just that the Israeli's used the wipe out of Gaza as an excuse to go public on it. I cannot excuse the use of rockets, but likewise can you justify the building of illegal settlements, the destruction of farmland, the restricted access to water supplies and so on. Are these the actions of benevolent colonialists? Israel likes to control Palestine in part because it relies upon on the water supplies, of course they don't want to let go in such an arid part of the world.

You are twisting my words on the illegitimacy of the Israel state (after all most states are illegitimate when we go to their roots like you agree), but UN backing doesn't neccessarily mean the correct decision has been made. It just means that the power brokers have reached agreement. How many resolutions have been passed against Israel and rejected by a single veto?Does that make all of them illegitimate? Of course not. And I'm sure you are not naive enough to think so either.

You don't need to respond, in fact I would love it if you didn't. Just let me have the final say and all will be well

You can do what you would have the Israeli's do and make the first conscession.

[Gandalf]

But we live in very different times to the development of America. I am in no way saying it is justifiable to wipe out the Palestinians here. We live in a global age where you can't get away with such things so obviously and easily. Israel should look for other ways to integrate into the region, wiping out Palestinians isn't the way to go. An unwelcome guest shouldn't try to further upset the party by kicking over tables and shooting other invitees. You could at least say sorry and try to move on somewhat.

When have the Jews ever tried to wipe out the Palestinians? The have blockaded for the last few years only because Hammas was firing 100 rockets every single day into their lands.

Imagine that Miles, 100 rockets every single day. How long would any other nation tolerate that before invading their neighbour?

And also, you are completely wrong about Jewish state being created illegally.

In fact it's probably the most legitimately created state ever being a legal creation of the United League of Nations, and not just because of the holocaust but (and this is written into the document) because they are recognised by the united nations of the world as having a unique historic right to claim the land as rightfully theirs.

I can't think of any other nation in the world ever that had such backing for its inception, seeing as all other nations were taken by force.

Bilbo, it is trying having to respond to you in these topics because we seem to disagree on pretty much everything everything. When have the Jews ever tried to wipe out Palestinians? Just tally up the death ratios of Jews against Arabs and see where that gets you. Admittedly they haven't gone the US/Nazi way of entire ethnic cleansing, but they have gone the way of full on apartheid and occupation. I would prefer a pistol to the head than years of pointless struggle and oppression at the hands of imperialist bullies and that is just what the Israeli's are. The elite are a seriously nasty bunch of people. Why can't you get that through your head? Why has the world opposed Israel on so many fronts and yet nothing gets done because of the US veto? Are you telling me the entire world has it wrong on Israel? That they haven't commited acts of international terrorism? That they don't purposely oppress the people in Gaza?

You say the blockade has been going on for the past couple of years. Simply not true, it's been going on for several years. It's just that the Israeli's used the wipe out of Gaza as an excuse to go public on it. I cannot excuse the use of rockets, but likewise can you justify the building of illegal settlements, the destruction of farmland, the restricted access to water supplies and so on. Are these the actions of benevolent colonialists? Israel likes to control Palestine in part because it relies upon on the water supplies, of course they don't want to let go in such an arid part of the world.

You are twisting my words on the illegitimacy of the Israel state (after all most states are illegitimate when we go to their roots like you agree), but UN backing doesn't neccessarily mean the correct decision has been made. It just means that the power brokers have reached agreement. How many resolutions have been passed against Israel and rejected by a single veto?Does that make all of them illegitimate? Of course not. And I'm sure you are not naive enough to think so either.

You don't need to respond, in fact I would love it if you didn't. Just let me have the final say and all will be well

You can do what you would have the Israeli's do and make the first conscession.

I find so much of what you are saying on this topic to be so heavily drawn on the Israeli side, that it's difficult to imagine that you aren't Netanyahu himself. I obviously have to respond to such arguments. We all know there are two sides to every argument, but how much actual reading have you done on the other side, Bilbo?

How about an actual response to the terrible actions commited upon the Palestinian people over the years? How do you feel about such actions carried out by the Israeli elite? And how do you feel about this so called inquiry into the flotilla attack? It looks to me like the Israeli's have managed to work it so that it isn't particularly independant at all. Surely you can't agree with that too.

[Kirkland Laing]

Israeli historian Ilan Pappe, whose parents fled persecution in Nazi Germany in the 1930s, minces no words in telling the real story of Zionism's crimes against the Palestinians:

It is the horrific story of the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, a crime against humanity that Israel has wanted to deny and cause the world to forget.




For his own research, Pappé decided to debunk the Israeli myths by relying almost exclusively on declassified Israeli military archives and the memoirs of Israel's "founding fathers."

These sources leave no doubt that, in the decades before 1948, the leaders of Zionism concocted a premeditated plan to expel the native Palestinian population. Pappé details how these Israeli "heroes" executed the plan in the period from December 1947 to March 1949 through the use of massacres, rapes, demolition of villages, and forced expulsion of the native population. In doing so, he manages to vindicate and corroborate the story that the Palestinians have been trying to get out to the Western world for the past sixty years........



For example, in 1937 Ben-Gurion told the Jewish Agency Executive, the organization charged with procuring land for Jewish settlements in Palestine, "I am for compulsory transfer; I don't see anything immoral in it." Ten years later, Ben Gurion maintained his opposition to sharing Palestine with the Arabs by rejecting the UN partition plan because he believed it didn't allocate at least the majority of Palestine to the Jewish state.....


Qisarya was the first village to be expelled in its entirety, on 15 February 1948. The expulsion took only a few hours and was carried out so systematically that the Jewish troops were able to evacuate and destroy another four villages on the same day, all under the watchful eyes of British troops stationed in police stations nearby.

The people of the village of Sa'sa were among the early victims. On the night of February 15, 1948, troops from Palmach (which had the largest Zionist militias) "took the main street of the village and systematically blew up one house after another while families were still sleeping inside." Moshe Kalman, the Jewish officer in charge of the operation later recalled, rather poetically, "In the end, the sky prised open. We left behind 35 demolished houses (a third of the village) and 60-80 dead bodies (quite a few of them were children)."

Declassified Israeli military archives confirm that the Zionist militias carried out at least thirty-seven large-scale massacres in that period. Some of the worst massacres and rape cases took place in villages such as Deir Yassin on April 9, 1948, where one survivor, Fahim Zaydan, described what Jewish troops did:

They took us one after the other; shot an old man and when one of his daughters cried, she was shot too. Then they called my brother Muhammad, and shot him in front of us, and when my mother yelled, bending over him-carrying my little sister Hudra in her hands, still breastfeeding her, they shot her too.

The news about the fate of the villagers in Deir Yassin spread like wildfire across Palestine, with Jewish troops cruising through other villages promising the villagers the same fate if they didn't leave. And though more recent accurate accounts of the number of those killed in Deir Yassin suggest a figure of 170 men, women, and children, Zionist propaganda broadcast over loudspeakers in the weeks that followed the massacre claimed that they actually killed over 300, in order to elevate the panic among Arabs.

On October 28, 1948, Palmach troops committed another massacre in the village of Dawaymah, described by Pappé as more brutal than the massacre in Deir Yassin. In just a few hours, all houses were blown up and 455 people were executed, including 170 women and children. The remaining 6,000 inhabitants-who included 4,000 refugees expelled earlier that year from other villages-were forcibly expelled. According to Israeli archives, "The Jewish troops who took part in the massacre also reported horrific scenes: babies whose skulls were cracked open, women raped or burned alive in houses, and men stabbed to death."

In all those villages that were attacked, the map compiled earlier by the Arabists proved to be extremely useful. It gave the Jewish troops complete understanding of the best way to attack those villages. And with the help of paid informants, it allowed them to pick out and immediately execute all potential resisters.

By the end of the war, Zionist troops had destroyed more than 420 Palestinian villages and turned their inhabitants into refugees. The same ill fate that befell the Palestinian countryside also befell the Arab population in cities-both Arab or mixed. The campaign against the Palestinian cities was also as relentless and brutal as that against the villages.

On the first day of Passover, April 21, 1948, Jewish troops began Operation Scissors (later renamed Operation Cleansing the Leaven or Bi'ur Hametz in Hebrew) to cleanse the mixed sea-port city of Haifa in the north of its fifty thousand Arab inhabitants. The troops attacked by rolling barrel bombs from the hills onto Arab streets and using heavy artillery while loudspeakers threatened the Palestinians to leave or else. Thousands of Palestinians fled to the port, attempting to get on boats to leave, but even there, Jewish troops continued to shoot, leading to more panic with parents trampling their own children. Many drowned when overloaded fishing boats capsized. This all happened under the nose of the British forces who were still stationed in the city and didn't fulfill an earlier promise to protect the city's Palestinian inhabitants.

Another example of what Pappé calls the urbicide, (killing of cities) of Arab Palestine is the attacks on the two cities of Acre and Baysan. On May 6, 1948, Jewish troops laid siege with intensive bombardment. Loudspeakers shouted everywhere: "Surrender or commit suicide. We will destroy to the last man."

According to British doctors in the city's Lebanese Red Cross hospital, the troops also caused an outbreak of typhoid and dysentery among Arabs and even British soldiers by poisoning the water supply with germs. These germs were developed by the Biological Warfare Science Corps program, set up by Ben-Gurion himself in the 1940s and ironically known by its acronym HEMED, which means "sweetness" in Hebrew. _Exhausted, starved, and fearing more death and destruction, the Palestinian inhabitants of Acre and Baysan finally surrendered in a matter of days only to be loaded by Jewish soldiers at gunpoint onto trucks that drove them to their future refugee camps. By the end of the war most major Palestinian cities had become totally or almost totally empty of their Arab inhabitants.

By the spring of 1949, Israel had conquered up to 80 percent of historic Palestine. It expelled 800,000 Palestinians, or 75 percent of the native Arab population, from their homeland, turning them into refugees and preventing them from coming back at the end of the war. The founding fathers had finally succeeded in securing a Jewish state with a Jewish majority. Some 660,000 Jews imposed military rule on 150,000 Arabs who dug in and didn't flee. The rest of the Palestinians were dispersed as refugees in the remaining 20 percent of their own country or in neighboring Arab states-made to live as refugees for the following sixty years. Today, they number over six million....



Ilan Pappe, Israel The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by Ilan Papp book review by Mostafa Omar