Very cool video regarding Israel's defensible borders and territory negotiations.

[Gandalf]

I said I wouldn't be starting threads on controversial issues for a while (Ralph Nader and my body don't count) so I wasn't going to go and start a thread on that and regardless today is my busy day so my posting time is limited. There will be no thread starting from me today. Anyway, of course Britain was to blame and we had absolutely no right to be in Northern Ireland. Show me a thread about it and of course my views would be laid out bare.

You keep on harking back to the flotilla which we have more than covered. You have today gone into the creation of Israel a little which we have dicussed. What about the numerous and many violations commited by the Israeli's?

How about...

1. Forging international passports to commit international terrorism?
2. Destroying Palestinian farmland and infrastructure?
3. Denying planning permission for Palestinians in Israel?
4. Trying to sell nuclear weapons to apartheid South Africa?
5. Building settlements on illegally obtained lands?
6. The denial of sufficient aid shipments?
7. The denial of Gazan rights to export?
8. The routine murder of Palestinians by Israeli forces

The list could probably go beyond 20 if I could be bothered.

When I asked you about your background reading I wasn't asking you about a report on the flotilla. I was asking you about your actual knowledge of Israeli acts of aggression and resistance to peace. Nameless already recommended Finkelstein to you. The other name I would add is Chomsky. It sounds to me like you have absorbed a whole heap of Dershowitz, Israeli state propaganda and the Bible and put them into a great big melting pot. If this is how you really feel on the issue then fair enough, but if you haven't read more then you should. Likewise, I'm always open for intelligent suggestions too.

[Gandalf]

6. Was poorly worded actually. Denying of direct aid to Gaza woud have been better and also I would add in something about the draconian restrictions upon what is also allowed in. No cement= no reconstruction. Not good when a good proportion of the place is rubble.

[Gandalf]

And now my final turn to hark back on about the flotilla before heading to work. It is hardly an independant enquiry is it though? And the Irish dude is heavily pro Israeli, they have been handpicked for crying out loud. Is that satisfactory? Independant means no strings attached and Israel knows it cannot do that because it WILL be found guilty as charged. Just like in the Goldstone report which even now Israel fails to recognise because once again it was in the wrong.

I have no axe to grind with peaceful nations. How often do you see me rant against Sweden or Canada for instance? Anyway, I'm off to work, catch ya later.

[Kirkland Laing]

According to Hitchens this confirmation; "by an Israeli historian using the most scrupulous and authentic Zionist sources, at last allows us to write finis to a debate which has been going on for a quarter of a century [...] between Erskine B. Childers and Jon Kimche."
In The Spectator 12 May 1961 Dr. Childers first wrote of his bafflement about the well-known Israeli claim that the Palestinians had been urged to flee by their own leadership:
Examining every official Israeli statement about the Arab exodus, I was struck by the fact that no primary evidence of evacuation orders was ever produced. The charge, Israel claimed, was "documented"; but where were the documents? There had allegedly been Arab radio broadcasts ordering the evacuation; but no dates, names of stations, or texts of messages were ever cited. In Israel in 1958, as a guest of the Foreign Office and therefore doubly hopeful of serious assistance, I asked to be shown the proofs, I was assured they existed, and was promised them. None had been offered when I left, but I was again assured. I asked to have the material sent on to me. I am still waiting.............

Childers also investigated the claims that Monsignor George Hakim, then Greek Catholic bishop of Galilee, had reported exhortations to his flock to leave. "I hold" wrote Childers, "signed letters from him, with permission to publish, in which he categorically denied ever alleging Arab evacuation orders; he states that no such orders were ever given. He says that his name has been abused for years, and that the Arabs fled because of panic and forcible eviction."
The BBC monitored all Middle Eastern broadcasts throughout 1948, and those records, and companion ones by a U.S. monitoring unit, could be seen at the British Museum. Dr. Childers decided to go through the lot. His conclusion was:
There was not a single order, or appeal, or suggestion about evacuation from Palestine from any Arab radio station, inside or outside Palestine, in 1948. There is repeated monitored record of Arab appeals, even flat orders, to the civilians of Palestine to stay put.[2]


Blaming the Victims - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Kev]

I said I wouldn't be starting threads on controversial issues for a while (Ralph Nader and my body don't count) so I wasn't going to go and start a thread on that and regardless today is my busy day so my posting time is limited. There will be no thread starting from me today. Anyway, of course Britain was to blame and we had absolutely no right to be in Northern Ireland. Show me a thread about it and of course my views would be laid out bare.

You keep on harking back to the flotilla which we have more than covered. You have today gone into the creation of Israel a little which we have dicussed. What about the numerous and many violations commited by the Israeli's?

How about...

1. Forging international passports to commit international terrorism?
2. Destroying Palestinian farmland and infrastructure?
3. Denying planning permission for Palestinians in Israel?
4. Trying to sell nuclear weapons to apartheid South Africa?
5. Building settlements on illegally obtained lands?
6. The denial of sufficient aid shipments?
7. The denial of Gazan rights to export?
8. The routine murder of Palestinians by Israeli forces

The list could probably go beyond 20 if I could be bothered.

When I asked you about your background reading I wasn't asking you about a report on the flotilla. I was asking you about your actual knowledge of Israeli acts of aggression and resistance to peace. Nameless already recommended Finkelstein to you. The other name I would add is Chomsky. It sounds to me like you have absorbed a whole heap of Dershowitz, Israeli state propaganda and the Bible and put them into a great big melting pot. If this is how you really feel on the issue then fair enough, but if you haven't read more then you should. Likewise, I'm always open for intelligent suggestions too.

I guess this is the thread you meant. Fair enough I shall look when I have time.

I don't expect the Israeli's to be blameless in every area though, that is unrealistic of an nation including the ones we live in.

The thing is you seem to have a hatred of Isreal that exceeds every other nation on this earth, in fact you think they are the greatest threat to world peace, which to me is utterly ridiculous.

They have no aggressive intentions, they are not after military conquests or land expansion. On the contrary they are smallest nation in size in the whole middle east. They are not a tryanny or run by an evil dictator. They don't deny citizenship to any of its people, including Arabs. They don't put homosexuals to death, they don't stone women adultresses, they don't terror bomb our lands. But to you they are the worst nation on the earth because they are blockading a regime that until the blockade was shelling them with 100 rockets per day.

If you can admit that Israel, whilst having faults, are still a valuable people who have contributed much to the world, who have a vibrant healthy democracry and who treat it's citizens well, than I will concede they may have sometimes got it wrong and acted badly.

It's the irrational hatred that you and Laing have that I can't understand.

There are so many atrocities being committed all the time around the world by so many countries, but to you the Jews are worst of all. This I just cannot agree with, not even a little.

[Gandalf]

I said I wouldn't be starting threads on controversial issues for a while (Ralph Nader and my body don't count) so I wasn't going to go and start a thread on that and regardless today is my busy day so my posting time is limited. There will be no thread starting from me today. Anyway, of course Britain was to blame and we had absolutely no right to be in Northern Ireland. Show me a thread about it and of course my views would be laid out bare.

You keep on harking back to the flotilla which we have more than covered. You have today gone into the creation of Israel a little which we have dicussed. What about the numerous and many violations commited by the Israeli's?

How about...

1. Forging international passports to commit international terrorism?
2. Destroying Palestinian farmland and infrastructure?
3. Denying planning permission for Palestinians in Israel?
4. Trying to sell nuclear weapons to apartheid South Africa?
5. Building settlements on illegally obtained lands?
6. The denial of sufficient aid shipments?
7. The denial of Gazan rights to export?
8. The routine murder of Palestinians by Israeli forces

The list could probably go beyond 20 if I could be bothered.

When I asked you about your background reading I wasn't asking you about a report on the flotilla. I was asking you about your actual knowledge of Israeli acts of aggression and resistance to peace. Nameless already recommended Finkelstein to you. The other name I would add is Chomsky. It sounds to me like you have absorbed a whole heap of Dershowitz, Israeli state propaganda and the Bible and put them into a great big melting pot. If this is how you really feel on the issue then fair enough, but if you haven't read more then you should. Likewise, I'm always open for intelligent suggestions too.

I guess this is the thread you meant. Fair enough I shall look when I have time.

I don't expect the Israeli's to be blameless in every area though, that is unrealistic of an nation including the ones we live in.

The thing is you seem to have a hatred of Isreal that exceeds every other nation on this earth, in fact you think they are the greatest threat to world peace, which to me is utterly ridiculous.

They have no aggressive intentions, they are not after military conquests or land expansion. On the contrary they are smallest nation in size in the whole middle east. They are not a tryanny or run by an evil dictator. They don't deny citizenship to any of its people, including Arabs. They don't put homosexuals to death, they don't stone women adultresses, they don't terror bomb our lands. But to you they are the worst nation on the earth because they are blockading a regime that until the blockade was shelling them with 100 rockets per day.

If you can admit that Israel, whilst having faults, are still a valuable people who have contributed much to the world, who have a vibrant healthy democracry and who treat it's citizens well, than I will concede they may have sometimes got it wrong and acted badly.

It's the irrational hatred that you and Laing have that I can't understand.

There are so many atrocities being committed all the time around the world by so many countries, but to you the Jews are worst of all. This I just cannot agree with, not even a little.

I have an extreme dislike for most elites and Israeli elites are no different. The elites I have the biggest issues with are planted firmly in Washington. The US is a far bigger terrorist state than Israel and I regard Obama and most other presidents as war criminals. Of course they will never be tried as such and that's the way the power game goes. The UK is another despicable country with a history of attrocities. The thing with Israel is that it is currently on a very hot streak of despicable form and that is why it has my ire. It is only natural that all of these countries are allies.

Stop talking about 'the Jews' Bilbo and let's start referring to them as the 'elites'. I couldn't care less if they are Arab, Jew, Christian or zoo gorilla, but if the elites amongst any of them are causing problems then I will observe and potentially comment. I don't hate 'the Jews' and I am quite content with the existence of Israel, but it would be nice if the elite in Israel would simply move away from the draconian policies that have led to the current state of revulsion many are now beginning to feel about it. It is not the citizens within a country that one loathes it is the attitudes and policies of the elite. Most Israeli's are just living their lives and are no different to people in other countries, I harbour no resentment to such people. But I do resent an elite who deny Arabs living within Israeli borders planning permission and the same access to rights as other Jewish citizens. That's how apartheid comes about. A class system based upon ethnicity and religion. That's not cool. Furthermore, If they have no expansionist desires then they should push for a two state solution and allow Palestinians to control all of their own resources without fear of any consequences. Ever wondered why they resist this?

Even now after agreeing to reduce the blockage, aid agencies are saying it goes nowhere near far enough. Seems like even agreeing to a non independant enquiry is not enough to make the elite half way civilised. It's give and take and with the Israeli elite it is take, take, take and throw a little bone back in return.

[Kev]

I have an extreme dislike for most elites and Israeli elites are no different. The elites I have the biggest issues with are planted firmly in Washington. The US is a far bigger terrorist state than Israel and I regard Obama and most other presidents as war criminals. Of course they will never be tried as such and that's the way the power game goes. The UK is another despicable country with a history of attrocities. The thing with Israel is that it is currently on a very hot streak of despicable form and that is why it has my ire. It is only natural that all of these countries are allies.

Stop talking about 'the Jews' Bilbo and let's start referring to them as the 'elites'. I couldn't care less if they are Arab, Jew, Christian or zoo gorilla, but if the elites amongst any of them are causing problems then I will observe and potentially comment. I don't hate 'the Jews' and I am quite content with the existence of Israel, but it would be nice if the elite in Israel would simply move away from the draconian policies that have led to the current state of revulsion many are now beginning to feel about it. It is not the citizens within a country that one loathes it is the attitudes and policies of the elite. Most Israeli's are just living their lives and are no different to people in other countries, I harbour no resentment to such people. But I do resent an elite who deny Arabs living within Israeli borders planning permission and the same access to rights as other Jewish citizens. That's how apartheid comes about. A class system based upon ethnicity and religion. That's not cool. Furthermore, If they have no expansionist desires then they should push for a two state solution and allow Palestinians to control all of their own resources without fear of any consequences. Ever wondered why they resist this?

Even now after agreeing to reduce the blockage, aid agencies are saying it goes nowhere near far enough. Seems like even agreeing to a non independant enquiry is not enough to make the elite half way civilised. It's give and take and with the Israeli elite it is take, take, take and throw a little bone back in return.

I do agree with that sentiment to a degree, but only to a degree. First of all yes I think both the US and Great Britain have acted very badly at times out of self interest but probably no more so than other countries.

I certainly don't think Isreal have ever behaved as badly however. They didn't wipe out an entire continent or carve out a world empire, on the contrary they have been under threat of extinction and being wiped out wherever they have lived on this earth.

If you want to talk about the Israeli's ethnically cleansing the Palestinians then you HAVE to also admit to the Arabs ethnically cleansing 800,000 Arab Jews. You also HAVE to admit it's been the Arabs who have consistently attacked Israel in the past.

I'm not sure if you are aware but the Palestinians were massacering Jews before they even had a Jewish state.

You could argue they started it by massacring in cold blood 69 Jews in Hebron in 1929 and another 18 at Safed the same year. This was 20 years before the Israel was created.

A commision of enquiry at the time led by Sir Walter Shaw found amongst other things that this was ' from the beginning an attack by Arabs on Jews for which no excuse in the form of earlier murders by Jews has been established.'

In fact it goes back even further, to 1834 when again in Safed the Palestinian Arabs brutally ethnically cleasened the entire city of several thousand Jews causing them to hide in caves for a month and left destitute and homeless. Safed plunder 1834 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So the kinds of charges you are laying against Isreal, were committed upon them by the very people you say are the 'victims' now.

I guess after the Safed pogrom of 1834, the Hebron massacre of 1929, the Arab riots of 1936-39, and then the five nation combined attack in 1948 by Egypt, Syria, Lebonnon, Jordan and Iraq, the Jews were probably thinking the Arabs didn't like them very much and that trying to resaon with them probably wasn't to going to help much.

By the time the Arabs invaded again in 1967,, again with the combined forces of Egypt, Jordan and Syria, with Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Tunisia, Morocco and Algeria all providing arms and military assistance the Jews were in no real mood to negotiate at all.

Of course the Arabs were not done yet and in 1973 launced yet another suprise attack, violating cease fire lines, on Yom Kippor, the most holy day of Judaism, when everyone was fasting.

Once again Israel repelled the attack and since then has pretty much accepted that the whole Arab world hates them, that they will never recognise their right to exist and will only continue to seek to destroy and gain revenge for the previous 'great catastrophes' as they call them.

Given the level of hatred and persecution these people have had to endure, and all this after coming straight from the concentration camps I think they should be cut some slack in all honesty.

You talk about apartheid but in reality this is just not true. There are many Israeli Arabs in the Knesset, also soldiers and police force. Arab citizens get full legal rights. Meanwhile no Jews are allowed to live in Jordan or Saudi Arabia and in Egypt, Egyptians actually lose their citizenship if they marry an Isreali, that sounds more like apartheid to me!

As for the Israeli's not offering a two-state solution. It was offered to Palestine in 1936 and 1947. They were offered the West Bank and Gaza in exchange for peace after 1967 and were met with the famous 'three noes', and again more than 90 percent of the territories were offered them in 2000, to which the Palestinians responded by launching the 'Second Intifada' campaign against the Isreali's

Even as recently as 2008 Ehud Olmert tried to offer them a deal and was rejected.

Going back further into history actually Palestine used to be much bigger, incorporating most of what is now Jordan. But Winston Churchill sold 80% of the land to King Abdullah. So Jordan is actually East Palestine, and thus the Arabs WERE given a state of Palestine.

Anyway I just think your bias is incredibly short sighted. Israel have face war against the Arabs on 4 occasions and understandably want to hold onto certain territories for defence purposes as that video I put at the start of the thread clearly demonstrates.

They CANNOT concede that territory because it will just become a hotbed of terror and a launchpad from which the Arabs can attack straight into Tel Aviv itself.

The more I study about the history the more I think the Israeli's have acted with great restraint.

They now face a new rising terror campaign, this time under the guise of humanitarian aid, which that document I showed you conclusively proves, and is completely independent of the Israeli's as well.

In conclusion, the Israeli's are not elites, they are a tiny, tiny nation in the midst of an entirely hostile Arab world that seek only to see it destroyed. They will not oblige and instead choose to defend themselves, and for that you hate them.

[Gandalf]

Since the 2nd world war the US has overthrown or isolated practically dozens of regimes for the crime of not allowing US business interests a central role in the system. Many of these regimes have advocated democracy or a socialist model and instead the US has chosen to support either a military coup or support totalitarian alternatives just so long as the elite allow US investors to make their share of the wealth. The US have acted above all other nations in terms of invasion or else trying to restrict the independance of nations through subversive means. Having just read Understanding Power by Chomsky, it is astonishing how long the list of countries actually is. Give it a read, it is quite shocking. Little old Britain falls way behind in the list of shame, as does Israel too for that matter. Though Israel was used quite often by the American's as a go between for illicit arms dealing in the 3rd world in countries where America wanted to keep it's name out. Apparently this was one of the reasons America continued to fund Israel so heavily. Israel has done a lot of America's dirty work over the years, so is looked upon very favourably.

For sure I admit that the Arabs have attacked Israel in the past. Does that make it right? Absolutely not, but you have to understand that in the eyes of many the sudden appearance of a state in the middle of Palestine after how many hundreds of years, was not a natural state of affairs. It was a horribly planned mess. Look at how big America is today. Why not just give the Jews half of Texas instead or put them in Wyoming? Plenty of space and a system that supports their existence. It was bound to lead to trouble saying "right!. The Jews can have all of this land here in Arab territory and all shall be dandy!". It was always going to end in disaster.

It's all well and good going back to less civilised times and talking about isolated incidents of anti-Jewish aggression. I'm not going to defend that. It's not about being on any one side. Wrong doing is wrong doing no matter who does the wrong doing. Yes, the Arab nations have done kamikaze things, yes, the Israeli's have been nutters in return. But in the past 40 years the Israeli's have been pumped up militarily, been given the bomb and even with all the advantages they have in the region are clearly the bullies in the region. It's like the elite has become the head boy armed with a stick and actually quite likes it. I made a simple list of RECENT bully boy activities commited by the Israeli's in RECENT years and you keep going back to 80 years ago. It isn't 80 years ago, Bilbo. Times have changed, when was the last time that Arabs were a serious threat to Israel? Certainly not now. There is no good reason to be keeping the Gazan people down and referring back to a massacre commited before the state was created is no justification for the blatant oppression going on today. Two wrongs don't make a right. The Israeli elite should know better, but obviously couldn't give a damn.

I talk about apartheid and it is absolutely true. In fact your denial of this is somewhat astonishing. It's a little bit like the Israeli claim that in Gaza "there is no humanitarian problem". Quite laughable. Why would anyone follow that corny line?

Ratner on Israeli apartheid Pt.1

Ratner on Israeli apartheid Pt.2

As for the two state solution. Again you are heading way back into times long gone. Let's talk of the here and now and please don't mention any corny proposals where the Palestinians must cede all land built on illegally by Israel and further accept broader changes in the borders in Israel's favour. There has been no serious talk of a two state solution in many a year. Any solution must fall back on the maps and conditions going back to 1967. This is the only fair way to solve things. And Israel must cede all rights to Palestinian water supplies (unless they want to pay good money for them that is. And even that should be determined by the Palestinians.)

[Gandalf]

An article showing the Israeli policy of apartheid. There's even a nice list of sources for you to check to if you are interested.

Our South Africa Moment Has Arrived

[Gandalf]

And stop saying I hate them, you are twisting it. I have already made the point that I despise the right wing elite who maintain control and dominate and nothing more. By using such blanket terms you are trying to make it as though I hate everyone in Israel and that is blatantly false.

[Kirkland Laing]

You talk about apartheid but in reality this is just not true. There are many Israeli Arabs in the Knesset, also soldiers and police force. Arab citizens get full legal rights.

Four decades later, the increasingly complex world of Israel's system of classification deems Said Rhateb to be a resident of the West Bank - somewhere he has never lived - and an illegal alien for living in the home in which he was born, inside the Jerusalem boundary. Jerusalem's council forces Rhateb to pay substantial property taxes on his house but that does not give him the right to live in it, and he is periodically arrested for doing so. Rhateb's children have been thrown out of their Jerusalem school, he cannot register a car in his name - or rather he can, but only one with Palestinian number plates, which means he cannot drive it to his home because only Israeli-registered cars are allowed within Jerusalem - and he needs a pass to visit the centre of the city. The army grants him about four a year.
There is more. If Rhateb is not legally resident in his own home, then he is defined as an "absentee" who has abandoned his property. Under Israeli law, it now belongs to the state or, more particularly, its Jewish citizens. "They sent papers that said we cannot sell the land or develop it because we do not own the land. It belongs to the state," he says. "Any time they want to confiscate it, they can, because they say we are absentees even though we are living in the house."

Worlds apart | World news | The Guardian


Also. If a bunch of militant Muslim immigrants started migrating to Britain in 1880 with the stated intention of setting up a Muslim state and set up terrorist groups to kill and threaten the natives while trying to expand over as big an area as possible, with ongoing killings etc., how do you think the natives would react? That's why some Palestinians killed some Jews pre-1948.

[Nameless]

I didn't reply to this thread by lack of time but in a nutshell: Kirklang and Miles are 100% right. Bilbo, digging out from 1830 when Israel was not even existing is extremely silly, it's like if i would dislike english Canadian and would dig out the Patriot Revolts from the 1876 to justify that, it's just... a non sense.
If Israel would stop stealing lands and building their own houses on it an going back to the 1967 borders, it would be all good in a matter of a few years (because when you pile shit for half a century long, you can imagine, I hope, that you're giving incredible roots to hate). After all the arguments I, Miles and Kirkland gave you with proofs in various topic about it, I wonder why you continue your non sense crusade for Israel, either you like to stir up controversy hobbit style or you have a bit of a loose screw when it touches political-religious matter touching indirectly the bible (which doesn't make you less charming, by the way )

[amat]

(which doesn't make you less charming, by the way )

Nameless, out of you, Miles and Laing, you're the one who acts like he's trying to seduce Bilbo Very bizarre.