Very cool video regarding Israel's defensible borders and territory negotiations.

[Kirkland Laing]

Bilbo, let's assume the Israeli propaganda you got from the Jewish Virtual Library is all true and the objective assessments of Jewish and other historians and the actual historical record, the BBC monitoring radio broadcasts etc. is all wrong. Let's say the Arab armies did encourage the Palestinians to leave their homes. So what? Let's say some foreign army invades the south coast and the British government tell people living there to leave their homes as they'll be in the middle of a war zone and in great danger. So you leave your home and head north. After whatever military action is over you still own your home, right? You still own the land and the property. If that's the best excuse the Israelis have for ethnically cleansing a million Palestinians from their homes, mostly rounded up and put on trucks at gunpoint as is endlessly documented even in the memiors of former Israeli prime ministers who took part in the ethnic cleansing, then it's a pretty pathetic excuse, no?

[Kev]

Bilbo, let's assume the Israeli propaganda you got from the Jewish Virtual Library is all true and the objective assessments of Jewish and other historians and the actual historical record, the BBC monitoring radio broadcasts etc. is all wrong. Let's say the Arab armies did encourage the Palestinians to leave their homes. So what? Let's say some foreign army invades the south coast and the British government tell people living there to leave their homes as they'll be in the middle of a war zone and in great danger. So you leave your home and head north. After whatever military action is over you still own your home, right? You still own the land and the property. If that's the best excuse the Israelis have for ethnically cleansing a million Palestinians from their homes, mostly rounded up and put on trucks at gunpoint as is endlessly documented even in the memiors of former Israeli prime ministers who took part in the ethnic cleansing, then it's a pretty pathetic excuse, no?

It's the Arab's who invaded the Jews mate that caused the Palestinains to flee not the other round. The Arabs invaded on three different fronts the day after the British mandate expired. Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria all went to war with Israel and they told the Palestinians (who were on the Arab side) to get out the way whilst they wiped the Jews out.

Only they didn't, they got their asses kicked utterly by a nation only a day old. They also expelled 800,000 Jews from their own Arab lands. Israel took them in at no cost to the rest of the world whilst the Arabs left the Palestinians to rot so they could continue to use them as a propaganda campaign against Israel.

To continue your analagy further if Britain, or indeed any Western World country had a colony of settlers somewhere and then told them to move aside for a moment whilst we conquer the rest of the land for you, but then got utterly beaten, my guess is they would be legally obligated to take the colonists back and offer them homes seeing as their aggression had lost their's originally.

If they had also expelled 800,000 people who shared ancestory with the side they were fighting, and took billions of pounds worth of property and land in so doing, they would probably use that land, property and money towards rehousing their own colonists and giving them full citizenship rights in their countries, just like Israel did for the 800,00 Arab Jewish refugees the above nations made homeless and destitute.

I guess you'll continue to ignore this point however and not even address it.

[Gandalf]

Kirkland isn't the only one who misses points, Bilbo.

I gave you a very basic list covering some of the issues which are pertinent to today and you completely avoided all of them. I guess they aren't very easy for any rational person to defend, but I was sure you would find some kind of off the wall spin.

[Gandalf]

Mind you, I should have kept quiet. I almost had the last word!

[Kirkland Laing]

Bilbo, let's assume the Israeli propaganda you got from the Jewish Virtual Library is all true and the objective assessments of Jewish and other historians and the actual historical record, the BBC monitoring radio broadcasts etc. is all wrong. Let's say the Arab armies did encourage the Palestinians to leave their homes. So what? Let's say some foreign army invades the south coast and the British government tell people living there to leave their homes as they'll be in the middle of a war zone and in great danger. So you leave your home and head north. After whatever military action is over you still own your home, right? You still own the land and the property. If that's the best excuse the Israelis have for ethnically cleansing a million Palestinians from their homes, mostly rounded up and put on trucks at gunpoint as is endlessly documented even in the memiors of former Israeli prime ministers who took part in the ethnic cleansing, then it's a pretty pathetic excuse, no?

It's the Arab's who invaded the Jews mate that caused the Palestinains to flee not the other round. The Arabs invaded on three different fronts the day after the British mandate expired. Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria all went to war with Israel and they told the Palestinians (who were on the Arab side) to get out the way whilst they wiped the Jews out.

Only they didn't, they got their asses kicked utterly by a nation only a day old. They also expelled 800,000 Jews from their own Arab lands. Israel took them in at no cost to the rest of the world whilst the Arabs left the Palestinians to rot so they could continue to use them as a propaganda campaign against Israel.

To continue your analagy further if Britain, or indeed any Western World country had a colony of settlers somewhere and then told them to move aside for a moment whilst we conquer the rest of the land for you, but then got utterly beaten, my guess is they would be legally obligated to take the colonists back and offer them homes seeing as their aggression had lost their's originally.

If they had also expelled 800,000 people who shared ancestory with the side they were fighting, and took billions of pounds worth of property and land in so doing, they would probably use that land, property and money towards rehousing their own colonists and giving them full citizenship rights in their countries, just like Israel did for the 800,00 Arab Jewish refugees the above nations made homeless and destitute.

I guess you'll continue to ignore this point however and not even address it.

Only the Palestinians weren't the colony, they were the people living there for centuries. The Israelis were the colonists. And the historical record, BBC and American radio monitoring shows zero radio broadcasts were made telling the Palestinians to evacuate. And the million Palestinian refugees were caused by actual ethnic cleansing, not by people running away from their houses. Cities of 50 000 people were ordered onto trucks at gunpoint and dumped in Gaza or forced over the border into neighbouring countries.

But you're not answering my question. If your family, who have been living on the south coast for generations, are told to evacuate by the British government for their own safety because they're in a war zone, move out of their house for the duration of any military conflcit, does that mean they lose all title to their property? Bear in mind that under international law, like the people Slobodan Milosevic booted out of Bosnia and elsewhere, you'd have both the right to return to your property and the right to reclaim it if occupied.

[Kirkland Laing]

And about the 800 000 Jewish refugees. They also have the absolute right of return to their former properties and land too. The right of return of refugees is international law.

[Kev]

And about the 800 000 Jewish refugees. They also have the absolute right of return to their former properties and land too. The right of return of refugees is international law.

Oh that makes it alright then. Both sides got fucked, and both sides can legally claim but in reality do nothing about it.

To me the Palestinian plight was brought about by the Arabs. The Jews had agreed to the mandate and two nation state. It was the Arabs who rejected it and went to war. The Jews wanted (and still want) nothing more but to live in their land in peace.

The conflict persists because the Arab world will only be happy when the Jews are driven out of the middle east.

Until then there will never be peace. They will never agree to Israel being there and Isreal will never agree to commit suicide and cease to exist.

On the contrary they will do whatever they need to do to defend themselves.

Answer me this honestly, if Britian, America or indeed any other nation would be in the same place as Israel, would they act any differently?

They do what's necessary to survive in a continent where they are universally despised, not because of what they have done, but because of what they represent. The Arab world hates the Jews, they are sworn enemies as long as the human race continures.

There is no solution, or peace plan that would ever be sufficient for the Arab world other than Jewish annihilation.

[Kirkland Laing]

And about the 800 000 Jewish refugees. They also have the absolute right of return to their former properties and land too. The right of return of refugees is international law.

Oh that makes it alright then. Both sides got fucked, and both sides can legally claim but in reality do nothing about it.

To me the Palestinian plight was brought about by the Arabs. The Jews had agreed to the mandate and two nation state. It was the Arabs who rejected it and went to war. The Jews wanted (and still want) nothing more but to live in their land in peace.

The conflict persists because the Arab world will only be happy when the Jews are driven out of the middle east.

Until then there will never be peace. They will never agree to Israel being there and Isreal will never agree to commit suicide and cease to exist.

On the contrary they will do whatever they need to do to defend themselves.

Answer me this honestly, if Britian, America or indeed any other nation would be in the same place as Israel, would they act any differently?

They do what's necessary to survive in a continent where they are universally despised, not because of what they have done, but because of what they represent. The Arab world hates the Jews, they are sworn enemies as long as the human race continures.

There is no solution, or peace plan that would ever be sufficient for the Arab world other than Jewish annihilation.

Whoever brought about the plight of the Palestinians, they still have the right to return to their homes and land. And they were ethnically cleansed from them in the first place. The people who didn't flee the Jewish terrorist groups, massacres, killings, and various other tactics to get them to flee were removed from their homes and land at gunpoint anyway, so even if they had been advised to flee and remained where they were they would have still ended up being ethnically cleansed anyway.


The conflict persists because Israel are carrying out an illegal half century military occupation of another people while they colonise the 20% of historic Palestine that they didn't ethnically cleanse previously. Here's the former Israeli Attorney Genral to explain :

The Six-Day War was forced upon us; however, the war's seventh day, which began on June 12, 1967 and has continued to this day, is the product of our choice. We enthusiastically chose to become a colonial society, ignoring international treaties, expropriating lands, transferring settlers from Israel to the occupied territories, engaging in theft and finding justification for all these activities. Passionately desiring to keep the occupied territories, we developed two judicial systems: one - progressive, liberal - in Israel; and the other - cruel, injurious - in the occupied territories. In effect, we established an apartheid regime in the occupied territories immediately following their capture. That oppressive regime exists to this day.

The war's seventh day - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News


The Arabs have zero say in any peace plan. They've already offered a comprehensive peace plan to Israel but Israel won't discuss it, they're continuing the plan laid out by the Israeli AG.

Arab Peace Initiative - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Israel aren't defending themselves. They're the aggressor here. They're carrying out a half-century-long illegal military occupation of another people, like the AG also points out. They're defending themselves against the Palestinians in the same way that Germany defended itself against Poland in 1939. We did not call the Polish people resisting them terrorists, we called them freedom fighters or resistance. The right of resistance to military occupation is another right enshrined in international law. Surely the right of defence isn't only allowed to military aggressors, right? The aggressees surely should be able to defend themselves againstr aggression? International law says they have the right.

Britain and America have both carried out various military occupations over the years. Britain actually carried one out in America at one point. Obviously they've all ended with the occupied eventually booting out the occupier, as will happen eventually in Palestine.

[Kev]

And about the 800 000 Jewish refugees. They also have the absolute right of return to their former properties and land too. The right of return of refugees is international law.

Oh that makes it alright then. Both sides got fucked, and both sides can legally claim but in reality do nothing about it.

To me the Palestinian plight was brought about by the Arabs. The Jews had agreed to the mandate and two nation state. It was the Arabs who rejected it and went to war. The Jews wanted (and still want) nothing more but to live in their land in peace.

The conflict persists because the Arab world will only be happy when the Jews are driven out of the middle east.

Until then there will never be peace. They will never agree to Israel being there and Isreal will never agree to commit suicide and cease to exist.

On the contrary they will do whatever they need to do to defend themselves.

Answer me this honestly, if Britian, America or indeed any other nation would be in the same place as Israel, would they act any differently?

They do what's necessary to survive in a continent where they are universally despised, not because of what they have done, but because of what they represent. The Arab world hates the Jews, they are sworn enemies as long as the human race continures.

There is no solution, or peace plan that would ever be sufficient for the Arab world other than Jewish annihilation.

Whoever brought about the plight of the Palestinians, they still have the right to return to their homes and land. And they were ethnically cleansed from them in the first place. The people who didn't flee the Jewish terrorist groups, massacres, killings, and various other tactics to get them to flee were removed from their homes and land at gunpoint anyway, so even if they had been advised to flee and remained where they were they would have still ended up being ethnically cleansed anyway.


The conflict persists because Israel are carrying out an illegal half century military occupation of another people while they colonise the 20% of historic Palestine that they didn't ethnically cleanse previously. Here's the former Israeli Attorney Genral to explain :

The Six-Day War was forced upon us; however, the war's seventh day, which began on June 12, 1967 and has continued to this day, is the product of our choice. We enthusiastically chose to become a colonial society, ignoring international treaties, expropriating lands, transferring settlers from Israel to the occupied territories, engaging in theft and finding justification for all these activities. Passionately desiring to keep the occupied territories, we developed two judicial systems: one - progressive, liberal - in Israel; and the other - cruel, injurious - in the occupied territories. In effect, we established an apartheid regime in the occupied territories immediately following their capture. That oppressive regime exists to this day.

The war's seventh day - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News


The Arabs have zero say in any peace plan. They've already offered a comprehensive peace plan to Israel but Israel won't discuss it, they're continuing the plan laid out by the Israeli AG.

Arab Peace Initiative - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Israel aren't defending themselves. They're the aggressor here. They're carrying out a half-century-long illegal military occupation of another people, like the AG also points out. They're defending themselves against the Palestinians in the same way that Germany defended itself against Poland in 1939. We did not call the Polish people resisting them terrorists, we called them freedom fighters or resistance. The right of resistance to military occupation is another right enshrined in international law. Surely the right of defence isn't only allowed to military aggressors, right? The aggressees surely should be able to defend themselves againstr aggression? International law says they have the right.

Britain and America have both carried out various military occupations over the years. Britain actually carried one out in America at one point. Obviously they've all ended with the occupied eventually booting out the occupier, as will happen eventually in Palestine.

So you think the Israeli's should allow the Palestinians back to their homes and land? You don't think that would just lead to Israel's destruction within months, inviting in a horde of 1 million plus people who hate you and want you destroyed?

It would be one of the worst decisions I can imagine personally.

As for your other points, I think they have some merit, I don't think Israel have acted perfectly on all occasions. I do think they they have generally treated the Arab world better than the Arab wold has treated it, which is probably true of the world as a whole as well.

I'm not sure Israel even occupies Gaza any more, I thought they withdrew in 2005?

The blokcade is becoming an international crisis point now. I saw today Isreal have lifted several restrictions and are allowing more items in than before, although most nations still think this is not enough.

It seems that progress is being made, albiet slowly. I'd like to see Israel withdraw completely, we will see what happens I guess.

I saw the President of Syria is getting itchy trigger fingers today saying this could ignite another war in the middle east. The worst thing about this from Israel's point of view is that they are allowing the most despicable terror groups to take the moral high ground in the eyes of the world.

I don't understand your position regarding terrorism though, in that you regard these groups as the inevitable result of oppression, yet make no concession for Israel's actions, being that they are, the most oppressed and persecuted nation that have ever existed by far. Is it hardly suprising that they don't trust many nations or neighbours when you consider how the world has treated them since around 1500 bc?