Midrange Left Hook (Question for Fran)

[HerbM]

Thanks for thinking this through with me Fran. I intend to work much of this on the bag, practicing both ways (I think that now I know something like 11 ways to "throw a hook" from reading, watching, and from my coach who will only accept ONE way <grin>).

There are three reason I thought of this:

1) Generally the "big muscles", especially the core have shorter movements or smaller ranges of motion, so if the body motion starts even with the hands the body motion tends to be "all used up", i.e., up against the stops (at the end of range of motion) before the hands get there.

2) Body/core motions tend to be more likely to commit weight and put one out of balance, especially as you mention if you miss, so saving them to the end and only committing just at or just before the strike means that you already KNOW you will hit.

3) My own hip, shoulder, and back range of motion sucks -- I have had tight ligaments and tendons my whole life, but with arthritis I am even more limited (notice that this is mostly not the painful type, just limiting in movement) so those big core motions are generally going to be even short for me before I "hit the stops".

So I have a general principle that I try to get my core into my punches "near the end" rather than "at the start".

The main disadvantages are that it requires really good timing (a lot of carefully correct practice) and it is easier to 'get lazy' and start leaving out the really powerful portion of the movement, unless I keep working the practice correctly and pay a lot of attention to getting it right constantly.

Also, by moving the leg and hip first, you set up a "wave like" or "whip like" action from bottom to top which proceed smoothly up the body to the shoulder and out through the arm finishing at the hand. This is a very natural way to release energy.

Doing it in the (partially) reversed order is not likely to be nearly as smooth.

I an not however certain that the hip later method would be slower, since I would ideally add the hip just as the arm reaches max speed and JUST BEFORE the strike so we are adding to the velocity of the arm (by turning) rather than having that hip be essentially FINISHED turning at impact (if it had started first it would have already 'used up' its rang of motion unless you overturn it and risk losing balance.)

I really like your videos and always learn a lot by watching and practicing them.

Thanks Fran.

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HerbM

[Fran@myboxingcoach]

Herb

It's an absolute pleasure to be involved in these discussions with people like you and Wayne because of the degree of thought and analysis you guys put in. As a coach, it's always good to have my thinking challenged...we all need to continually assess our understanding of our technical approach, even after 30+ years!

Take it easy Herb

Fran

[HerbM]

Thanks Fran, I enjoy reading both your posts here and your newsletter.

BTW, I have tried both methods, turning hips first, and turning hips later, and they both seem to 'work' and feel comfortable, but I haven't yet made any clear distinction about which strikes more powerfully or which is safer etc.

Moving the leg-hip first definitely makes it easy to REMEMBER to get the hips into the hook, and helps alleviate "arm punching (alone)" so as a coach this might be preferable even if there is/were a (small?) advantage to turning near to contact.

Also, my coach watched me do these both (modifications to his hook instructions) without giving me any additional push-ups, so that was good. Generally, I have done pushups for doing a simpler hip rotation late in the hook.

Oh, another thing: Although Freddie Roach teaches the hook slightly differently than you (on the Title boxing video series) he definitely has the hip turn FIRST, and the shoulder arm motion following -- he sort of makes SPACE for the hand/arm by turning this way so that he gets room to throw (almost like cocking the punch) but without first dropping his hand and without actually loading up or cocking.

I don't know if the above paragraph makes any sense -- it's like he moves his hip away from his hand, then there is more room to "swing". My coach hates this method --and i have done the push-ups to prove that.

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HerbM

[boxingbantz]

Herb and Fran, you two are a credit to this forum.

People could probably learn more on this forum than they would from a book. I've definitely learnt a heck off a lot from this forum and will be a lot of what I've learnt to the gym on Monday when I have my first 1-1 coaching session (obviously I'm gonna go with an open mind as I'm sure all coached have their own ways of teaching etc).

Keep up the good work.

[HerbM]

Thanks Koppas.

Fran is the real deal, a long time coach and boxer with many successes in both careers:

About | MYBOXINGCOACH.COM

While you are at his site, remember to book mark it and watch (all of) his videos there, and subscribe to his newsletter email articles. They have all been worth the time and effort.

As far me, I am just a newbie boxer (just over 8 months) and an old guy (58 last week) who will never get to fight in a real bout (can't pass the medical for Masters amateur apparently or I would do it.)

So consider everything you get from me to be unverified rumor until you prove it for yourself in actual practice, sparring, and combat.

The one big thing I have going is my experience in "modeling excellence" and the ability to break things down logically, plus an absolute refusal to believe even my own 'stuff' until it is proven under pressure against fully resisting opponents.

I really started boxing to continue my combat arts training CHEAPLY (the boxing gym was less expensive for MORE training than BJJ, Systema, etc) but then "got the bug" and ended up going to the gym almost everyday, while continuing to work out at Systema, BJJ, and knife defense separately.

Now, if I can just get Coach to let me do full sparring -- been bugging him for over six months, but he is very protective and has no idea that I have a head like a concrete block and a body like a water bag for absorbing blows.

This site has been an excellent source of answers (and questions*) from everyone, both directly, and also from video links like Fran's site and the ones posted by Scrap and others, as well as all the books posted by Chris Nagel.

Definitely read the books by Dempsey, Haislett, Frazier, InsideTheRing (RossBoxing archive), Champ Thomas, and others. I learned something -- a lot usually -- from every single one of those books.

*Sometimes I learn the most from other people's questions, but the answers that are offered by others to questions I never thought to ask, and from trying myself to work through and answer it logically and clearly which helped me clarify things that I had just read in the books, heard from my coach, knew from other martial arts, or picked up here on the forum.

Keep asking....I know I will.

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HerbM
Keep fighting -- God will tell you when you are dead.