America is an illegal and racist country much like Israel

[amat]

What we did to the native Americans was shit but how come you dwell so much on America all the time? What about the British empire destroying whole cultures and shooting people off of the front of cannons in India? There is soooo much bad history and bad stuff going on now but you act as if America and Israel are the worst of the world's evils. I don't believe this even if we share a lot of the blame. Why not spend some time railing against radical terrorists from time to time.

Also when you say we're a racist country, what do you mean by that? Are you talking about our history or who we are now?

[Gandalf]

I dwell on America becuase you are creating most of the worlds misery. Right now America and Israel are responsibly for much of the world's misery. If I was around 80 years ago my motives would obviously have been different. The British would have been my targets. In fact even now they are.

You talk of 'radical terrorists'..spoken like a truly uninformed American...what radical terrorists, Amat? The ones created by years of systematic abuse? Both economic and military? How many did you kill in Iraq and for what purpose exactly? Opening a Burger King in the Green Zone? Nice! Then there is Afghanistan and what about the economic invasions in countries such as Argentina, Uruguay, Poland, China, Russia and so on.

A racist country created on unhinged christian foundations. An idea that you are superior to the dark skinned people. That was how America was founded and this is how Israel is going. Take some land and take some more, because "we are able to do so". That is racist. Nobody wants to help the dark skinned people even though it is their own land.

That is a country built on racism and that is how Israel is being built today.

[amat]

I dwell on America becuase you are creating most of the worlds misery. Right now America and Israel are responsibly for much of the world's misery. If I was around 80 years ago my motives would obviously have been different. The British would have been my targets. In fact even now they are.

You talk of 'radical terrorists'..spoken like a truly uninformed American...what radical terrorists, Amat? The ones created by years of systematic abuse? Both economic and military? How many did you kill in Iraq and for what purpose exactly? Opening a Burger King in the Green Zone? Nice! Then there is Afghanistan and what about the economic invasions in countries such as Argentina, Uruguay, Poland, China, Russia and so on.
.

It's like you have your posts picked out, you know what you want to say regardless of what the responses you get are. Uninformed American? How come you feel the need to discredit every single person you argue with? Don't you realize how petty and childish this makes you look? It's fucken ridiculous.

I know full well that America has blame for the hostilities that the middle east holds toward us. However, they should still be held accountable for blowing up open markets and destroying civilians just like we should. What would you call these people who strap explosives to themselves if they aren't radical terrorists? Do you have a better word for them?

How about some accountability on these people's behalves. What do you suppose we call the organizations I refer to as radical terrorists? Freedom fighters? What is Osama Bin Laden to you?

[El Kabong]

....what miles doesn't realize is that ENGLAND created the issues in the Middle East....FACT. There's no debating it...the United States only got involved because England and BP informed then President Eisenhower that if the Shah was not restored to power that Iran would go commie.

But all that is conveniently left out of miles' posts

[amat]

We share a lot of the blame too, it's not quite that simplistic. We turned our back on the Iraqi people at the end of the first gulf war. We turned our back on the Afghans after they defeated the soviets and both of those are directly related to the hostilities people in those regions feel toward us today and why we weren't greeted as the welcome liberators U.S. intelligence thought we would be when we invaded both countries.

Still, you have to have accountability on all sides and Miles doesn't seem to realize that.

[El Kabong]

We share a lot of the blame too, it's not quite that simplistic. We turned our back on the Iraqi people at the end of the first gulf war. We turned our back on the Afghans after they defeated the soviets and both of those are directly related to the hostilities people in those regions feel toward us today and why we weren't greeted as the welcome liberators U.S. intelligence thought we would be when we invaded both countries.

Still, you have to have accountability on all sides and Miles doesn't seem to realize that.

Sure we share blame now that we are a major superpower, but it's childish to think that the US could have so much and leave everyone else alone. Our economy would not work if we were isolationist. And would any nation work against it's own intrests? So again his logic is flawed.

My main point to miles is that he cannot look at the history of the world no matter if it's the 1700's, 1800's, or whenever through the eyes of a 21st century man. Did the Indians take it on the chin when this country was built? Yes....is the US alone in doing that? NO. Judging our forefathers by the social morays of the 21st century and thinking that you can justly peg them as "good or evil" is wrong and simply put just fucking stupid.

[Gandalf]

I dwell on America becuase you are creating most of the worlds misery. Right now America and Israel are responsibly for much of the world's misery. If I was around 80 years ago my motives would obviously have been different. The British would have been my targets. In fact even now they are.

You talk of 'radical terrorists'..spoken like a truly uninformed American...what radical terrorists, Amat? The ones created by years of systematic abuse? Both economic and military? How many did you kill in Iraq and for what purpose exactly? Opening a Burger King in the Green Zone? Nice! Then there is Afghanistan and what about the economic invasions in countries such as Argentina, Uruguay, Poland, China, Russia and so on.
.

It's like you have your posts picked out, you know what you want to say regardless of what the responses you get are. Uninformed American? How come you feel the need to discredit every single person you argue with? Don't you realize how petty and childish this makes you look? It's fucken ridiculous.

I know full well that America has blame for the hostilities that the middle east holds toward us. However, they should still be held accountable for blowing up open markets and destroying civilians just like we should. What would you call these people who strap explosives to themselves if they aren't radical terrorists? Do you have a better word for them?

How about some accountability on these people's behalves. What do you suppose we call the organizations I refer to as radical terrorists? Freedom fighters? What is Osama Bin Laden to you?

I feel the need to discredit the vast bulk of a population that is forced to digest a god awful right wing media everyday. It's only in recent years that the US intelligentsia has started to come to terms with it own genocidal history. It still has some way to go considering all the romanticisation of the Wild West that emerged at the start of the 20th century through literature and cinema. It wasn't romantic, it was racist and genocidal. Again, I don't find that a controversial thing to say.

I regard the troops currently in Iraq as invaders and occupiers. Those who wish to liberate their country of such a force are obviously freedom fighters and those who argue their case through journals and articles are the resistence. We have no right to be there and the only people that have gained are those with sound investments in the military industrial complex, not Iraqi citizens who are forced to live in chaos and fear. We can all talk of liberation and freedom....but does the average Iraqi really have that today? Come on now. All this stealth and fire for a bunch of people finally snapping at all America had been doing to the world for the past 40 years?

Take the shame and move on. Don't try to bomb the rest of the world into the stone age.

[El Kabong]

Take the shame and move on. Don't try to bomb the rest of the world into the stone age.

...well I guess we can leave Afghanistan ooooh some 9 years ago

miles....I don't hate you or anything I just think you are looking at this in a flawed manner and that's below you, and the fact that you don't recognize it is just sad.

[Gandalf]

Take the shame and move on. Don't try to bomb the rest of the world into the stone age.

...well I guess we can leave Afghanistan ooooh some 9 years ago

miles....I don't hate you or anything I just think you are looking at this in a flawed manner and that's below you, and the fact that you don't recognize it is just sad.

Should never have gone there in the first place. There were other ways to go after Al Qaeda and those ways should have been exhausted before any invasion of another country. That's why we are are there 9 years later fighting who exactly?

Likewise, I don't hate you. We usually oppose each other on issues such as this, but I see no harm in pointing out the similarities in how supposedly superior cultures are allowed to steal the land of indigenous populations. Or even bomb others without due cause.

[amat]

Take the shame and move on. Don't try to bomb the rest of the world into the stone age.

...well I guess we can leave Afghanistan ooooh some 9 years ago

miles....I don't hate you or anything I just think you are looking at this in a flawed manner and that's below you, and the fact that you don't recognize it is just sad.

Should never have gone there in the first place. There were other ways to go after Al Qaeda and those ways should have been exhausted before any invasion of another country. That's why we are are there 9 years later fighting who exactly?

Likewise, I don't hate you. We usually oppose each other on issues such as this, but I see no harm in pointing out the similarities in how supposedly superior cultures are allowed to steal the land of indigenous populations. Or even bomb others without due cause.

Yeah who are we fighting? Al Qaeda and the taliban. Ohh but my guess is you think we shouldn't be fighting the Taliban, correct? Yet the Taliban are a breed of pure evil (this isn't right wing media talking, this is the truth) that people like me and you can't even begin to comprehend. Heinous, heinous people who do awful things and live life completely backwards, yet since they weren't the ones who ran the planes into the building, I guess we have no business interfering with their way of business.

But let me guess, we played a huge hand into putting them into power, that was going to be your next argument right? Why does that matter though? We have put evil people into power before and had to remove them, the Taliban need to be eradicated. This is a simple fact. I believe this with all of my heart, there is no other way to go about dealing with them.

Iraq is a cluster fuck, I know this. Our military planning going into Afghanistan kind of sucked. That's a bureaucracy problem, we are not the bad guys in Afghanistan. Iraq is more murky, we were WRONG to go in there and because of that we have the blood of a country's civil war on our hands. Still, we aren't the only bad guys their either and if you truly believe we are then you are simply detached from reality. I guess you aren't fully to blame as what you are reading is from anti-Imperialists who are actually just anti-Americans and people who have likely never stepped foot in Iraq or Afghanistan in their lives. It's made clear by your posts too.

[El Kabong]

Should never have gone there in the first place. There were other ways to go after Al Qaeda and those ways should have been exhausted before any invasion of another country. That's why we are are there 9 years later fighting who exactly?

Likewise, I don't hate you. We usually oppose each other on issues such as this, but I see no harm in pointing out the similarities in how supposedly superior cultures are allowed to steal the land of indigenous populations. Or even bomb others without due cause.

#1 NO, we should have just stayed there in the 1980's and all this Al Queda, Taliban bullshit would have been avoided had we just given the Afghani people a hand in building their country after they got rid of the Soviets.

#2 Once again my issue with the way you are viewing this is that you judge the PAST by the morals and values we have TODAY. That is a flawed logic because the way we look at things today is incredibly different than the reality of life in the past. Now if we're talking recent past then there may be a little room for you to look at those events the way you're already looking at things.