How to shake free of Old School bias.

[0james0]

Interestingly, in contrast to your wealth of first hand experience of being of that era, my era is still ongoing. Right now, today.

I'm not young by any means, Freya and kids prove that. But certainly not old enough to really know Rocky and co.

Yes I've watched videos, yes I've seen the records. But for me I'll never honestly know how good these guys were and I wonder how many of my generation and moving forward the next generation will remember these guys as legends, but possibly over hyped ones?

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

I've always rated Rocky as a (modern) Cruiserweight

Jack Johnson could of probably made Light Heavyweight (although that's only if the science of making weight was ever a requirement for him).

That's why I'm happy (or maybe 'not so reluctant' would be a better turn of phrase...) to give credence to the likes of the K-Bros when talking about their historical standing in the Heavyweight division.

Simply because, I accept that the playing field has and will always change... In a number of ways.

[Spicoli]

Thinks its just ingrained in eras. We all love to believe that the ones we came up with stand above the ones prior and the ones we watch today. Familiarity...nostalgia....seeing a fighter who is infact 'complete' and therefore more easily judged and evaluated. Fans tend to live in the 'now' and its all about perspective. The weight ranges and classifications are just verbiage. You say heavyweight division and it draws visuals and historic relevance. You say 190 lbs today and you think cruiser weight so some have a hard time giving them a realistic chance vs guys today based strictly on size. Though you cannot dismiss the intangiables of fighters gone by...activity, skill and frankly grit...sort of goes hand in hand with generations too. People were 'harder' and thats just a fact compared to some pampered divas we have wearing gloves today. I give Marcianos power a chance vs many but giving weight he would not meet heavys in the ring. Rocky as an active cruiser would be on par with Holyfield giving that division life and be a nightmare for anyone. You have to play the hand your dealt. Bit of a ramble,ahh well.

Shit...while were here. Holyfield vs Marciano anyone,cruiser ? I like Holyfield

[Rantcatrat]

Holmcall, Have you read the Arc of Boxing by Mike Silver? I haven't, but I read a review and it seems like it would be up your alley.

[holmcall]

Holmcall, Have you read the Arc of Boxing by Mike Silver? I haven't, but I read a review and it seems like it would be up your alley.

Yes indeed. I know Mike very well and he was the guest speaker at the annual Ring 4 Veteran Boxers Banquet in Boston (of which I am amember) and I had the honor of sitting at the dais with him and next to Micky Ward--a real stroke oif luck--that.

I was going to review it for the site I write on, but then I saw that too many others have already reviewd it. I would have given it a glowing review although I am not nearly as Old School as Mike. But he did his research and that's what counts big for me.

He also is a nice chap.

[holmcall]

Holmcall, Have you read the Arc of Boxing by Mike Silver? I haven't, but I read a review and it seems like it would be up your alley.

Yes indeed. I know Mike very well and he was the guest speaker at the annual Ring 4 Veteran Boxers Banquet in Boston (of which I am amember) and I had the honor of sitting at the dais with him and next to Micky Ward--a real stroke oif luck--that.

I was going to review it for the site I write on, but then I saw that too many others have already reviewd it. I would have given it a glowing review although I am not nearly as Old School as Mike. But he did his research and that's what counts big for me.

He also is a nice chap.

I have now done areview on Mike's book and it is on-line on another site.

[Master]

Thinks its just ingrained in eras. We all love to believe that the ones we came up with stand above the ones prior and the ones we watch today. Familiarity...nostalgia....seeing a fighter who is infact 'complete' and therefore more easily judged and evaluated. Fans tend to live in the 'now' and its all about perspective. The weight ranges and classifications are just verbiage. You say heavyweight division and it draws visuals and historic relevance. You say 190 lbs today and you think cruiser weight so some have a hard time giving them a realistic chance vs guys today based strictly on size. Though you cannot dismiss the intangiables of fighters gone by...activity, skill and frankly grit...sort of goes hand in hand with generations too. People were 'harder' and thats just a fact compared to some pampered divas we have wearing gloves today. I give Marcianos power a chance vs many but giving weight he would not meet heavys in the ring. Rocky as an active cruiser would be on par with Holyfield giving that division life and be a nightmare for anyone. You have to play the hand your dealt. Bit of a ramble,ahh well.

Shit...while were here. Holyfield vs Marciano anyone,cruiser ? I like Holyfield

I go with Rocky at that weight.

[Spicoli]

Thinks its just ingrained in eras. We all love to believe that the ones we came up with stand above the ones prior and the ones we watch today. Familiarity...nostalgia....seeing a fighter who is infact 'complete' and therefore more easily judged and evaluated. Fans tend to live in the 'now' and its all about perspective. The weight ranges and classifications are just verbiage. You say heavyweight division and it draws visuals and historic relevance. You say 190 lbs today and you think cruiser weight so some have a hard time giving them a realistic chance vs guys today based strictly on size. Though you cannot dismiss the intangiables of fighters gone by...activity, skill and frankly grit...sort of goes hand in hand with generations too. People were 'harder' and thats just a fact compared to some pampered divas we have wearing gloves today. I give Marcianos power a chance vs many but giving weight he would not meet heavys in the ring. Rocky as an active cruiser would be on par with Holyfield giving that division life and be a nightmare for anyone. You have to play the hand your dealt. Bit of a ramble,ahh well.

Shit...while were here. Holyfield vs Marciano anyone,cruiser ? I like Holyfield

I go with Rocky at that weight.

Ya know. Given where they were at respected points in overall career development...I could see that if he goes free swinging with Rocky. Lean towards handspeed-combos carrying it though. Would have been great.

[Andre]

I think if these modern fighters went back in time Rocky would wear them all down over those long last rounds. If he came forward in time he would be disqualified for hitting with the side of the glove too often.
Tough mindedness and hard times would weigh against easier times and better food and more technical training. Some fighters are hungry for fame and a name these days but rarely would they have grown up with real hunger and having to work from the ground up. No chainsaws back then, men did 12 hours in the field or on roads then went to train in the ring later. I'll go with the old.

[Taeth]

I think people who say the guys of old are invincible are truly lost in nostalgia. I mean even the greatest ever Sugar Ray Robinson watch this fight with Lamotta.



You see brilliance in offense and his quick jab, but you also see flaws defensively. You see how his jab often falls short despite its speed, how off balance he was coming forward when he would throw those amazing combinations, if a guy were to use lateral movement who knows what would have happened. Technically we have seen the sport improve so much, but it's almost impossible to find his offensive poetry beyond Pacquiao at times, and what RJJ, Meldrick Taylor, young Mosley, Hearns and SRL did in spurts. You see Robinson look impressive, but you see him fail to capitalize on the fact that Lamotta is hunched over to his right, and Ray is often throwing his jab short despite the fact Lamotta is so slow.

[Taeth]

I think if these modern fighters went back in time Rocky would wear them all down over those long last rounds. If he came forward in time he would be disqualified for hitting with the side of the glove too often.
Tough mindedness and hard times would weigh against easier times and better food and more technical training. Some fighters are hungry for fame and a name these days but rarely would they have grown up with real hunger and having to work from the ground up. No chainsaws back then, men did 12 hours in the field or on roads then went to train in the ring later. I'll go with the old.

I'm sure a lot of the guys Mayweather fought at the point they did were more desparate than he was, but look how foolish he made them look, or RJJ was a better example of that. The truth is that heart only goes so far against superior athleticism coupled with extensive elite experience and amazing technical soundness.

IMO there is no way Marciano would have beaten either Klitschko brother, a healthy Holyfield, Lennox Lewis.

truly look how slow he was . SUre he had good power and amazing determination, but how would a guy that slow ever reach a guy like Wladimir or Vitali or Lewis? How would he be able to beat a guy like Holyfield who is bigger, faster, stronger, and has just as much heart and stamina? Or a guy like David Tua? Or Ike Ibeabuchi? He was just truly blessed to be at the right place at the right time in the greatest sense of it. Ali or Holmes would have also picked him apart, and either version of Foreman would have knocked him out. So would have Liston.

Here is the one guy of the past who I think transcends any timeperiod in boxing, and IMO is better than Ray Robinson, its just too bad he got in a plane crash

[holmcall]

Interestingly, in contrast to your wealth of first hand experience of being of that era, my era is still ongoing. Right now, today.

I'm not young by any means, Freya and kids prove that. But certainly not old enough to really know Rocky and co.

Yes I've watched videos, yes I've seen the records. But for me I'll never honestly know how good these guys were and I wonder how many of my generation and moving forward the next generation will remember these guys as legends, but possibly over hyped ones?

Well youtube and videos help, but I think it's important to remember a fight in the context in which it was held to get the full appreciation. Being 73 gives me a bit of an edge, but youtube has begun to level the playing field.

[generalbulldog]

Interestingly, in contrast to your wealth of first hand experience of being of that era, my era is still ongoing. Right now, today.

I'm not young by any means, Freya and kids prove that. But certainly not old enough to really know Rocky and co.

Yes I've watched videos, yes I've seen the records. But for me I'll never honestly know how good these guys were and I wonder how many of my generation and moving forward the next generation will remember these guys as legends, but possibly over hyped ones?

Well youtube and videos help, but I think it's important to remember a fight in the context in which it was held to get the full appreciation. Being 73 gives me a bit of an edge, but youtube has begun to level the playing field.

73? Wow, that's pretty impressive. You lived through an era when baseball and boxing were the no. 1 and 2 sports in America. Well baseball has only slipped to the no. 2 sport while boxing is almost dead from the general US public.