How to shake free of Old School bias.

[Spicoli]

Thinks its just ingrained in eras. We all love to believe that the ones we came up with stand above the ones prior and the ones we watch today. Familiarity...nostalgia....seeing a fighter who is infact 'complete' and therefore more easily judged and evaluated. Fans tend to live in the 'now' and its all about perspective. The weight ranges and classifications are just verbiage. You say heavyweight division and it draws visuals and historic relevance. You say 190 lbs today and you think cruiser weight so some have a hard time giving them a realistic chance vs guys today based strictly on size. Though you cannot dismiss the intangiables of fighters gone by...activity, skill and frankly grit...sort of goes hand in hand with generations too. People were 'harder' and thats just a fact compared to some pampered divas we have wearing gloves today. I give Marcianos power a chance vs many but giving weight he would not meet heavys in the ring. Rocky as an active cruiser would be on par with Holyfield giving that division life and be a nightmare for anyone. You have to play the hand your dealt. Bit of a ramble,ahh well.

Shit...while were here. Holyfield vs Marciano anyone,cruiser ? I like Holyfield

I go with Rocky at that weight.

Ya know. Given where they were at respected points in overall career development...I could see that if he goes free swinging with Rocky. Lean towards handspeed-combos carrying it though. Would have been great.

[Andre]

I think if these modern fighters went back in time Rocky would wear them all down over those long last rounds. If he came forward in time he would be disqualified for hitting with the side of the glove too often.
Tough mindedness and hard times would weigh against easier times and better food and more technical training. Some fighters are hungry for fame and a name these days but rarely would they have grown up with real hunger and having to work from the ground up. No chainsaws back then, men did 12 hours in the field or on roads then went to train in the ring later. I'll go with the old.

[Taeth]

I think people who say the guys of old are invincible are truly lost in nostalgia. I mean even the greatest ever Sugar Ray Robinson watch this fight with Lamotta.



You see brilliance in offense and his quick jab, but you also see flaws defensively. You see how his jab often falls short despite its speed, how off balance he was coming forward when he would throw those amazing combinations, if a guy were to use lateral movement who knows what would have happened. Technically we have seen the sport improve so much, but it's almost impossible to find his offensive poetry beyond Pacquiao at times, and what RJJ, Meldrick Taylor, young Mosley, Hearns and SRL did in spurts. You see Robinson look impressive, but you see him fail to capitalize on the fact that Lamotta is hunched over to his right, and Ray is often throwing his jab short despite the fact Lamotta is so slow.

[Andre]

Different weights you are talking about, different deal in my mind too.
Heavyweights are not as technical as other weights and they get worse the longer the fight goes on, (generally)speaking.
There are some modern exceptions that would have a shot like some of the talented giants we have seen but we are talking generally/overall here.

[holmcall]

I think people who say the guys of old are invincible are truly lost in nostalgia. I mean even the greatest ever Sugar Ray Robinson watch this fight with Lamotta.



You see brilliance in offense and his quick jab, but you also see flaws defensively. You see how his jab often falls short despite its speed, how off balance he was coming forward when he would throw those amazing combinations, if a guy were to use lateral movement who knows what would have happened. Technically we have seen the sport improve so much, but it's almost impossible to find his offensive poetry beyond Pacquiao at times, and what RJJ, Meldrick Taylor, young Mosley, Hearns and SRL did in spurts. You see Robinson look impressive, but you see him fail to capitalize on the fact that Lamotta is hunched over to his right, and Ray is often throwing his jab short despite the fact Lamotta is so slow.

Yes. I agree

[Taeth]

I think if these modern fighters went back in time Rocky would wear them all down over those long last rounds. If he came forward in time he would be disqualified for hitting with the side of the glove too often.
Tough mindedness and hard times would weigh against easier times and better food and more technical training. Some fighters are hungry for fame and a name these days but rarely would they have grown up with real hunger and having to work from the ground up. No chainsaws back then, men did 12 hours in the field or on roads then went to train in the ring later. I'll go with the old.

I'm sure a lot of the guys Mayweather fought at the point they did were more desparate than he was, but look how foolish he made them look, or RJJ was a better example of that. The truth is that heart only goes so far against superior athleticism coupled with extensive elite experience and amazing technical soundness.

IMO there is no way Marciano would have beaten either Klitschko brother, a healthy Holyfield, Lennox Lewis.

truly look how slow he was . SUre he had good power and amazing determination, but how would a guy that slow ever reach a guy like Wladimir or Vitali or Lewis? How would he be able to beat a guy like Holyfield who is bigger, faster, stronger, and has just as much heart and stamina? Or a guy like David Tua? Or Ike Ibeabuchi? He was just truly blessed to be at the right place at the right time in the greatest sense of it. Ali or Holmes would have also picked him apart, and either version of Foreman would have knocked him out. So would have Liston.

Here is the one guy of the past who I think transcends any timeperiod in boxing, and IMO is better than Ray Robinson, its just too bad he got in a plane crash

[Andre]

Yeah theres a few exceptions for sure. I wouldnt give him much hope against many of those that you've mentioned in the middle rounds he was a small heavy. I dont rate him either, I think he cheated with alot of his shots being off the padded area of the glove too.
Wore men down.
Generally again, I dont know how many modern fighters could continue into 15 rounds with some of the men of old either. Most look good when they are getting everything their own way but they fold much faster these days when they dont, I dont think they have as much grit put it that way.
Its a varied thing on too many levels, size, technique, rounds even the latest in footwear would have most modern fighters moving, gripping and hitting harder.

[holmcall]

Yeah theres a few exceptions for sure. I wouldnt give him much hope against many of those that you've mentioned in the middle rounds he was a small heavy. I dont rate him either, I think he cheated with alot of his shots being off the padded area of the glove too.
Wore men down.
Generally again, I dont know how many modern fighters could continue into 15 rounds with some of the men of old either. Most look good when they are getting everything their own way but they fold much faster these days when they dont, I dont think they have as much grit put it that way.
Its a varied thing on too many levels, size, technique, rounds even the latest in footwear would have most modern fighters moving, gripping and hitting harder.

Grit. Indeed.

[holmcall]

Gee, It's kind of nice being back on Saddo.