The Case Against Julio Cesar Chavez

[El Kabong]

I think Salvador Sanchez was probably going to end up fighting JC but unfortunately that never happened.

It's a brave post to start, but I respect it and it's an original post as well so big props for that

[Violent Demise]

Chavez is a first ballot Hall of Famer. It's moronic to say otherwise. The points provided are not even points. It's what happens when one just hates and doesn't really know the sport.

1, Whitaker beat a lot of fighters. No shame losing to him. But not only was Chavez past his prime. He was fighting 2 weight classes above his best.

2, Chavez ruined Taylor. There was no immediate rematch cuz Taylor wasn't even physically clear to fight till 3 months after the first Chavez fight. At which point Taylor elected to move up in weight rather than face Chavez again.

3, Chavez benefited from a moronic WBC rule in the 2nd fight. A rule that was in place way before the fight. That can't be held against him. Randall was shot in the 3rd fight. Ok. Like Chavez wasn't

4, He was 36, fighting against a bigger, stronger opponent above his best weight. He was completely shot. But decided to go toe to toe with Oscar anyway. His corner stopped the fight due to his lip damn near almost falling off.

5, You kidding me? Nelson never wanted Chavez. Nelson didn't move up to Super Featherweight till Chavez moved up to Lightweight. At which point Nelson declined AN OFFER to move up to Lightweight and faced Chavez in order to fight Jesse James Leija

6, Buddy McGirt? Your fucking kidding me. That would of been a tune-up for Chavez

7, Brown and Chavez were never even close to being in the same division at the same time. This is just stupidity to mention.

8, Your a fucking idiot. Norris spent his whole career at 154. Chavez had no business being as high as 147. And when exactly was a fight with Starling or Trinidad doable? Explain

[bchristian620]

First ballot HOFer. Losing to Sweet Pea can't even be called a "blemish". His sytle, heart and courage have been seen before him, but he may be one of the last true warriors. Sad that there were so many vultures around him sucking his blood and money....

[Spicoli]

I've always thought he quit vs Randall. Period. But he made some great adjustments in that fight in boxing Frankie who's belly must have had led in it as he took boo koo body damage. He was stunned early...saw the writing on the wall and when cut happened he milked it. Opted out.

Nelson stylistically stood better chance with JCC I believe. He went for name & network. Cannot be dismissed for going for Pernell where as it pains me to say....he was a puppet on a string. Love Nelson to death....but four,four scraps with Leija at that stage. Ugh.

Chavez vs Norris strikes me same as a much talked about Norris vs Whitaker "p4p" i.e name fight at the time....a loss for guy who had little business that high with a fellow elite.

Call me crazy... I had Haugen over Camacho twice. Touch glove or no touch glove. But yeh that was about setting records against a willing tough who could talk up a fight. But no love for Rosario in contrast? One of his best executions of a game plan. And really...Lockridge did himself proud prior to and post Chavez battle. That was a quality win should not be dismissed.

Chavez had some soft touches and became too enamored (promoter really) with reaching 100 wins in the later days. I think one thing that gets over lookes is he was pretty much a co star to Tyson as far as Showtime network and King were concerned. he was and should be a 1st ballot hall of famer.

[Manju]

1, Whitaker beat a lot of fighters. No shame losing to him. But not only was Chavez past his prime. He was fighting 2 weight classes above his best.

No shame in losing but we’re determining if he’s the cream of the cream. And I say no. “Past his prime” is argument by assertion. Chavez was undefeated, was regularly KOing the same medium-level opposition he had long made his rep on. Indeed, Haugan and Camacho (who he fought not too long b/f Sweet Pea) were among the best fighters he defeated in his career. Before the fight he was ranked #1 p4p with Sweat Pea at 2. After the fight, it was reversed. So much for the “Past his Prime” excuse.

“2 weight classes above his best” is not as specious an argument but it’s not like he was fighting Tommy Hearns at welter, or even SRL (a natural welter). He was fighting a shorter man who also came up to the welterweight class. So he gets no points for fighting above his prime-weight. His opponent did the same.

2, Chavez ruined Taylor. There was no immediate rematch cuz Taylor wasn't even physically clear to fight till 3 months after the first Chavez fight. At which point Taylor elected to move up in weight rather than face Chavez again.

I acknowledged all this in my post. His performance against a red-hot prime Taylor was his best. But this being his best is problematic, since he was outboxed and should have lost on points. So, he’s a hall of famer, just not an upper-echelon one.

3, Chavez benefited from a moronic WBC rule in the 2nd fight. A rule that was in place way before the fight. That can't be held against him. Randall was shot in the 3rd fight. Ok. Like Chavez wasn't

What is held against him is he lost, lost twice (as you concede) but did not offer the victim an immediate rematch. He failed to avenge, indeed he failed to try to avenge his loss and therefore should be demerited. Both Randal I and II count against him and the 3rd one was irrelevant b/c they both were shot, as you acknowledge.

4, He was 36, fighting against a bigger, stronger opponent above his best weight. He was completely shot. But decided to go toe to toe with Oscar anyway. His corner stopped the fight due to his lip damn near almost falling off.

I acknowledge this. The point of ODLH was that sometimes great fighters have past-their-prime moments that count toward the hall. Hearns beat Hill well past his prime. Sweat Pea had a great performance against the same ODLH. Chavez never had such a moment. No redeeming fight to counter all the dodges and evasions.

5, You kidding me? Nelson never wanted Chavez. Nelson didn't move up to Super Featherweight till Chavez moved up to Lightweight. At which point Nelson declined AN OFFER to move up to Lightweight and faced Chavez in order to fight Jesse James Leija

This sounds far-fetched. Nelson was not known for dodging. In general, you don’t dodge your biggest opportunity and biggest money fight. Everyone wanted Chavez b/c the record made him a legend.

6, Buddy McGirt? Your fucking kidding me. That would of been a tune-up for Chavez

Not physically gifted, but McGirt was a great tactical fighter. Importantly, he was a 1b-4-1b-er of the same size as Chavez and at the same time. His outboxing of Brown occurred in 1991 and catapulted his rep. By 1992, Chavez and Sweet Pea were 1,2 in the rankings with buddy mcgirt and azumah nelson right behind them (like around 5, 7 1b-4-1b) All of them were welters or maybe a ½ a division less at the time. And they were all small welters too. Simon Brown was in the mix then as well.

Every single one of these fighters, all similar size to JCC (except for Brown) and in their prime were better than any fighter Chavez ever defeated, except for Taylor…who he arguably didn’t defeat (in his prime).

7, Brown and Chavez were never even close to being in the same division at the same time. This is just stupidity to mention.

Incorrect, see above.

8, Your a fucking idiot. Norris spent his whole career at 154. Chavez had no business being as high as 147. And when exactly was a fight with Starling or Trinidad doable? Explain

I acknowledge fighting Norris would’ve been a big risk but it was a much talked about fight if JCC wanted to take a shot. That’s my gripe with Chavez. He took it easy. ODLH fought the bigger Hopkins. Trinidad too. Indeed, Pernell fought Trinidad so Chavez could’ve too. The timing wasn’t perfect but it was doable. Trinidad won the welter title in 93, when JCC was light-welter champion and undefeated. I concede Starling.

[Master]

JCC is an ATG, he beat superb fighters in Rosario and Ramirez . he also beat great fighters like Taylor and Camacho. He was exciting to watch and his boxing skills were brilliant.

Some of the other fighters you mention were at welter and he was never a welterweight, which he why King would not put him in there with Tito, that would have been a massacre.

[Taeth]

Chavez is a great fighter, but I think he gets acclaim more than his career offers. He fought a handful of great guys, but every great has, I think too many get hung up on the fact he almost went 100-0, but a lot of that was padding. No doubt he was a ATG fighter, but way further than my list than he is on others. That being said he is a for sure first ballot. The most significant mexican boxer ever... common.