The Case Against Julio Cesar Chavez

[Manju]

JCC was In no way, no how a welterweight.

Chavez was not a WW like Pac and PBF aren't. Tito, like SRR and SRL, was a natural welter so Chavez avoiding a fight with him (and certainly Norris above him) is forgivable, as I say in my orginal post. Thats no crime and doesn't deserve a demerit.

However, doing so and doing well would earn extra-credit. Holfyield made a career fighting above his weight, as is PacMan today. Hearns was much bigger than SRL and SRL was bigger than Duran. So serious props to Duran for beating SRL in SRLs territory. JCC lacks such an accomplishment...which would mitigate against the failure to fight some of the top smaller guys.

Sweat Pea, Taylor, Azumah, McGrirt, and Randall were all the proper size for Chavez. They all fought at WW but they came up to that division and were small welters like Chavez. They all were at or around their peak roughly around when JCC was at his.

I consider this group to be the upper-echelon. (ODLH, Tito, Simon Brown, and Norris were too but they were either bigger and/or peaked when JCC was in decline. So they are discounted). At the end of the day, for someone to be a 1st ballet HOF they would have to stand out against the top available fighter of the day, IMO.

These 5 represent that. They also represent the meat of my argument. I believe, for the reasons stated, JCCs peformance against the top 5 was not impressive enough to warrant first ballet honors.

[Master]

JCC superstar was never a legitamate welerweight and was too old to fight the fighters you mentioned. His best days were below that weight, you cannot penalise him for that. It is like criticising RJJ for not fighting Lennox Lewis or Hagler for not fighting Spinks.

[Manju]

JCC superstar was never a legitamate welerweight and was too old to fight the fighters you mentioned. His best days were below that weight, you cannot penalise him for that. It is like criticising RJJ for not fighting Lennox Lewis or Hagler for not fighting Spinks.

JCC hit lightwelter in 1988 and more or less bounced between that and WW for the rest of his career. This was his peak, as he was on the 1b-4-1b lists at that time. Its plausible that he actually peaked earlier but thats getting into fine distinctions. At worst he was beginning the tail end of his peak by 1988.

It is true at 5 71/2 that he was a small welter, like PBF. But so was the aformentioned competition. Using height as a metric, Sweat Pea, McGirt, and Azumah were shorter. Taylor was equal and Randal was an inch and 1/2 taller.

He was not too old to fight these guys. In 1989, JCC was ranked #2 behind Tyson. He was fighting at lightweight-lightWelter-Welter. Pernell and Azumah were also on the 1b-4-1b lists, fighting at lightweight and on the cusp of going to welter. So Chavez had a shot at them at his alledged peak weight.

McGirt was a light-welter in 1988 and made the 1b-4-1b list in 1991 after defeating Brown. Chavez was still undefeated and was ranked #1 after Tyson lost and until his draw with Pernell in 93, after which he got demoted to 2. So McGirt was very doable as well.

Randal marked the end of JCCs peak, but since he was responsible for ending it, he still gets credit for defeating him within his peak. Anything after Randal II, was post-peak Chavez. I would not describe him as shot though.

[SEANIE]

Chavez made more WORLD TITLE DEFENCES than any other boxer in history (That's if you discount the thai who defended his wbf title six zillion times)

So if he's undeserving first time round I'll eat my hat.