Now some time has passed.. Your final vote on Pac's refusal...

[JazMerkin]

Bodybuilding & boxing have very different needs so putting on 'bulk' for either is a very different proposition. For example, most bodybuilders tend to burn all the fat that they can for events, whereas as a boxer you want to have some fat to fall back on because otherwise you become too weak. What Manny Pacquiao has done physically is different, but that alone is not enough to judge him. The only thing in that regard that sticks out a bit for me is that his power appeared to plateau a bit at 130, yet since moving up it's that much more explosive. Even with the lack of drain, it's still odd that he looks a more explosive puncher (not power, guys like Hearns & Robinson have carried the power up, but they've looked to lose that explosiveness with it). But, to me, that is no indicator of guilt.

What does make me doubt him is the tests. It's the fact he wanted notifications of when the tests would be. PSL's point about the PBF-Mosley testing stopping 18 days before is neither here nor there. The point was the fighters knew they could be tested & were probably expecting it. The thing that really makes me doubt it is what I hear from people in the sport themselves. What guys even very close to Pac say privately is very different from what they say publically.

But, they'll make the fight next year & this will all be forgotten.

N.B. Jones is not a good analogy when trying to proclaim Pacquiao's innocence. Most in or around the sport believe that he had some interesting 'supplements' when moving up the Light-Heavy.

you are right dude, bodybuilding and boxing are different with different goals

but bodybuilders and boxers are both human and have the same physiology or anatomy or what ever you want to call it

the argument is that pac has put on a lot of lean muscle (im not saying he has or he hasnt, thats just what we are discussing) so if a bodybuilder (who is dedicated to putting on muscle) cant achieve that without roids why should boxer be able to?

Because if Pac is on anything it's far more likely to be EPO than HGH, as his goals are different. The obsession with his body & muscle mass is a really a bit of a red herring in this debate as far as I'm concerned.

[erics44]

Bodybuilding & boxing have very different needs so putting on 'bulk' for either is a very different proposition. For example, most bodybuilders tend to burn all the fat that they can for events, whereas as a boxer you want to have some fat to fall back on because otherwise you become too weak. What Manny Pacquiao has done physically is different, but that alone is not enough to judge him. The only thing in that regard that sticks out a bit for me is that his power appeared to plateau a bit at 130, yet since moving up it's that much more explosive. Even with the lack of drain, it's still odd that he looks a more explosive puncher (not power, guys like Hearns & Robinson have carried the power up, but they've looked to lose that explosiveness with it). But, to me, that is no indicator of guilt.

What does make me doubt him is the tests. It's the fact he wanted notifications of when the tests would be. PSL's point about the PBF-Mosley testing stopping 18 days before is neither here nor there. The point was the fighters knew they could be tested & were probably expecting it. The thing that really makes me doubt it is what I hear from people in the sport themselves. What guys even very close to Pac say privately is very different from what they say publically.

But, they'll make the fight next year & this will all be forgotten.

N.B. Jones is not a good analogy when trying to proclaim Pacquiao's innocence. Most in or around the sport believe that he had some interesting 'supplements' when moving up the Light-Heavy.

you are right dude, bodybuilding and boxing are different with different goals

but bodybuilders and boxers are both human and have the same physiology or anatomy or what ever you want to call it

the argument is that pac has put on a lot of lean muscle (im not saying he has or he hasnt, thats just what we are discussing) so if a bodybuilder (who is dedicated to putting on muscle) cant achieve that without roids why should boxer be able to?

Because if Pac is on anything it's far more likely to be EPO than HGH, as his goals are different. The obsession with his body & muscle mass is a really a bit of a red herring in this debate as far as I'm concerned.

maybe maybe not, and i dunno how much muscle he has actually put on

maybe if we had similar pics of him when he fought marquez the last time maybe to when he fought cotto we could maybe see a difference

[erics44]

Of course you can. You just need to adapt the nutrition to surpass the energy requirements. Because Pacquio's enery requirements are so high, his nutritional needs will also be high - around 8,000 calories per day in his case, which is similar to Michael Phelps by the way - another extremely lean top level athlete.

The fact that he was fighting at Bantamweight doesn't actually have anything to do with that being his natural weight. It's very possible that as a younger fighter he was under-nutritioned or malnourished in an athletic sense. You can bet your bottom dollar he didn't have a 8,000 calorie a day plan when he was in his early 20's.

its highly unlikely he is eating 8000 calories a day dude, where are you getting your information from

i started a thread on a bodybuilding forum

eating 8000 calories a day and adding lean muscle - UK-Muscle Body Building Community - Bodybuilding Forum

yes these are just random people, who could know nothing but they are also people who dedicate themselves to bodybuilding and nutrician and are constantly looking for ways to gain muscle (lean or not)

[ono]

8000 calories a day for an athlete who is training for 3-5 hours per day isn't far fetched. You're gaining a lot of fat because you don't have anywhere the same activity level as Pacquiao has. You clearly don't have the activity level to support your current energy intake.

The bit where you said people over 23 don't build lean muscle isn't true. It's not true in any way shape or form. I don't understand the bit about bodybuilders taking steroids, but bulking like 'natty's. Do you mean, even steroid using bodybuilders have to increase calories intake just like a regular natural bodybuilder? If so, of course they do. That's because there is a science to putting on lean muscle. You seem to hinting at the notion that bodybuilders rely on steroids because they have exhausted all other avenues. In my experience, this is far from true.

It seems like you are arguing over a redundant point which has been peddled by some idiot who's trying to justify his own steroid cycle, over on a bodybuilding site.

i didnt say over 23s dont put on lean muscle, i said it becomes very difficult, very quickly as you get over that age, obviously it depends on the person, some sooner others later

say at 26, 27, 28 or 29 to put on anymore than 5lbs of lean muscle a year would be very difficult and there is no way you would put lean muscle on eating 8000 calories a day when you are 10 stone

i never said bodybuilders rely on steriods (please point out where i did if i did) i said both steriod users and nattys use the same methods, eat over 2500 calories a day and put on fat as well as muscle

dude eating 8000 calories is unrealistic for anyone, especially someone of 10 stone, do you know how much food that is? the only way i can think of doing it would be on a liquid diet, and it would be pointless anyway, eating all that and training so much, they would kind of offset each other

www.uk-muscle.co.uk is full of competing bodybuilders, some who bodybuild for a living and most who make it their sole purpose in life, start a thread called - could you put on lean muscle eating 8000 calories a day at 10 stone - and see what the response is, argue it is manny pac you are talking about, and see if you get any further

You said over 23's don't generally put on lean muscle.

"The second part of Ariza’s training module involves extremely high caloric intake. He has Pacquiao consuming over 7000 calories of food per day, alternating between high protein solid foods and then liquid protein shakes. Pacquiao is forced to eat at least every two hours, whether he’s hungry or not. Contrary to the myth that Pacquiao enjoys fighting at higher weights because he can eat all he wants, Ariza says the constant consumption of food actually gets to the fighter, even if he’s eating his favorite Filipino dishes."

This is taken from an interview with Pacquiao's nutritionist and the full article is on this site

http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...gime-diet.html

He doesn't give an exact figure but he mentions that it is above 7,000 cals, so for arguments sake let's settle on 7,000.

He has to eat that much because if he went much lower, he wouldn't eat enough to meet his energy requirements. His energy requirements are so high because he undertakes a very vigorous training camp.

You keep mentioning that he can't possibly put on lean muscle when his calories are so high and when he's naturally so small. I'll try and explain it differently to you mate...

If he's consuming 7,000 calories per day day, but burning off 6,500 that's an aggregate of 500 calories. Now that is the same as you consuming 2,500 and burning off 2,000. The only difference is, Manny's activity level is much much higher than yours, so he needs to up his calorie intake to compensate for it. If he didn't, he wouldn't be able to maintain his existing weight, let alone put on weight.

Are you with me so far?

Quick recap....he has to consume more calories than he is burning off. So that's why it's above 7,000. From that information you can gather he is burning around 6,000 - 6,500 calories per day through training camp.


Edit: As for his weight gain, i posted pictures of 'tale of the tapes' from his fight with Morales right up until his fight with Clottey. His weight come fight night only showed a 5lb differential. Inn other words, even at Super-Featherweight against Morales in 06, Manny weighed 144lbs on the night of the fight. Against Clottey in 2010 he weighed 149lbs. People tend to ignore this when pointing out he has moved up several divisions, but it's unfair to do so. His fight night weight is his more natural weight. His weigh-in weight will vary depending on the level of dehydration and muscle glycogen depletion. So in real terms, he's actually only 5lb heavier than he was 4 years ago.

[generalbulldog]

1 question that boggles my mind. Where is Taeth? He probably knows someone in his gym that has a PHD in bio-chemistry or sports science that attended an Ivy League University (Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Princeton, etc.) that knows more than us regular Joes do. I am waiting for his 2nd hand info to clear this up.

[Youngblood]

Of course you can. You just need to adapt the nutrition to surpass the energy requirements. Because Pacquio's enery requirements are so high, his nutritional needs will also be high - around 8,000 calories per day in his case, which is similar to Michael Phelps by the way - another extremely lean top level athlete.

The fact that he was fighting at Bantamweight doesn't actually have anything to do with that being his natural weight. It's very possible that as a younger fighter he was under-nutritioned or malnourished in an athletic sense. You can bet your bottom dollar he didn't have a 8,000 calorie a day plan when he was in his early 20's.

yes these are just brotastic weight lifting effin idiots...

fyp.

[skel1983]

8000 calories a day for an athlete who is training for 3-5 hours per day isn't far fetched. You're gaining a lot of fat because you don't have anywhere the same activity level as Pacquiao has. You clearly don't have the activity level to support your current energy intake.

The bit where you said people over 23 don't build lean muscle isn't true. It's not true in any way shape or form. I don't understand the bit about bodybuilders taking steroids, but bulking like 'natty's. Do you mean, even steroid using bodybuilders have to increase calories intake just like a regular natural bodybuilder? If so, of course they do. That's because there is a science to putting on lean muscle. You seem to hinting at the notion that bodybuilders rely on steroids because they have exhausted all other avenues. In my experience, this is far from true.

It seems like you are arguing over a redundant point which has been peddled by some idiot who's trying to justify his own steroid cycle, over on a bodybuilding site.

i didnt say over 23s dont put on lean muscle, i said it becomes very difficult, very quickly as you get over that age, obviously it depends on the person, some sooner others later

say at 26, 27, 28 or 29 to put on anymore than 5lbs of lean muscle a year would be very difficult and there is no way you would put lean muscle on eating 8000 calories a day when you are 10 stone

i never said bodybuilders rely on steriods (please point out where i did if i did) i said both steriod users and nattys use the same methods, eat over 2500 calories a day and put on fat as well as muscle

dude eating 8000 calories is unrealistic for anyone, especially someone of 10 stone, do you know how much food that is? the only way i can think of doing it would be on a liquid diet, and it would be pointless anyway, eating all that and training so much, they would kind of offset each other

www.uk-muscle.co.uk is full of competing bodybuilders, some who bodybuild for a living and most who make it their sole purpose in life, start a thread called - could you put on lean muscle eating 8000 calories a day at 10 stone - and see what the response is, argue it is manny pac you are talking about, and see if you get any further

You said over 23's don't generally put on lean muscle.

"The second part of Ariza’s training module involves extremely high caloric intake. He has Pacquiao consuming over 7000 calories of food per day, alternating between high protein solid foods and then liquid protein shakes. Pacquiao is forced to eat at least every two hours, whether he’s hungry or not. Contrary to the myth that Pacquiao enjoys fighting at higher weights because he can eat all he wants, Ariza says the constant consumption of food actually gets to the fighter, even if he’s eating his favorite Filipino dishes."

This is taken from an interview with Pacquiao's nutritionist and the full article is on this site

http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...gime-diet.html

He doesn't give an exact figure but he mentions that it is above 7,000 cals, so for arguments sake let's settle on 7,000.

He has to eat that much because if he went much lower, he wouldn't eat enough to meet his energy requirements. His energy requirements are so high because he undertakes a very vigorous training camp.

You keep mentioning that he can't possibly put on lean muscle when his calories are so high and when he's naturally so small. I'll try and explain it differently to you mate...

If he's consuming 7,000 calories per day day, but burning off 6,500 that's an aggregate of 500 calories. Now that is the same as you consuming 2,500 and burning off 2,000. The only difference is, Manny's activity level is much much higher than yours, so he needs to up his calorie intake to compensate for it. If he didn't, he wouldn't be able to maintain his existing weight, let alone put on weight.

Are you with me so far?

Quick recap....he has to consume more calories than he is burning off. So that's why it's above 7,000. From that information you can gather he is burning around 6,000 - 6,500 calories per day through training camp.


Edit: As for his weight gain, i posted pictures of 'tale of the tapes' from his fight with Morales right up until his fight with Clottey. His weight come fight night only showed a 5lb differential. Inn other words, even at Super-Featherweight against Morales in 06, Manny weighed 144lbs on the night of the fight. Against Clottey in 2010 he weighed 149lbs. People tend to ignore this when pointing out he has moved up several divisions, but it's unfair to do so. His fight night weight is his more natural weight. His weigh-in weight will vary depending on the level of dehydration and muscle glycogen depletion. So in real terms, he's actually only 5lb heavier than he was 4 years ago.

Mate let him be, Eric is right everytime in his mind when in truth he is wrong more or less everytime.

[0james0]

How old is Pac now? Mid 30's?

I think you are all forgetting about the scientific term- middle age spread.

We all get heavier as we get older. Even if he retired from boxing a long time ago, he would be heavier now than he was then.

I'm suspicious, but he's still innocent until proven guilty.

[ono]

How old is Pac now? Mid 30's?

I think you are all forgetting about the scientific term- middle age spread.

We all get heavier as we get older. Even if he retired from boxing a long time ago, he would be heavier now than he was then.

I'm suspicious, but he's still innocent until proven guilty.

But what me and Skel have pointed out is the fact that Pacquiao is naturally only around 4 or 5lbs heavier than he was in 2007 when he fought Barrera. He might have moved up 2 or 3 weight classes, but his weight hasn't really changed. He might have weighed in heavier, but his actual fight night weight has only increased from 144 (the barrera fight) to 149 (the clottey fight).

Weighing in the day before a fight doesn't give a good indication of somebody's natural weight. Getting weighed on fight night does. Eric the fitness Guru isn't having it, because him posting on muscle-talk obviously over-rides actual logic and nutritional fact.

[:::PSL:::]

"Eric the fitness guru" Lol!

[skel1983]

"Eric the fitness guru" Lol!

Move over Alex Ariza.

[erics44]

8000 calories a day for an athlete who is training for 3-5 hours per day isn't far fetched. You're gaining a lot of fat because you don't have anywhere the same activity level as Pacquiao has. You clearly don't have the activity level to support your current energy intake.

The bit where you said people over 23 don't build lean muscle isn't true. It's not true in any way shape or form. I don't understand the bit about bodybuilders taking steroids, but bulking like 'natty's. Do you mean, even steroid using bodybuilders have to increase calories intake just like a regular natural bodybuilder? If so, of course they do. That's because there is a science to putting on lean muscle. You seem to hinting at the notion that bodybuilders rely on steroids because they have exhausted all other avenues. In my experience, this is far from true.

It seems like you are arguing over a redundant point which has been peddled by some idiot who's trying to justify his own steroid cycle, over on a bodybuilding site.

i didnt say over 23s dont put on lean muscle, i said it becomes very difficult, very quickly as you get over that age, obviously it depends on the person, some sooner others later

say at 26, 27, 28 or 29 to put on anymore than 5lbs of lean muscle a year would be very difficult and there is no way you would put lean muscle on eating 8000 calories a day when you are 10 stone

i never said bodybuilders rely on steriods (please point out where i did if i did) i said both steriod users and nattys use the same methods, eat over 2500 calories a day and put on fat as well as muscle

dude eating 8000 calories is unrealistic for anyone, especially someone of 10 stone, do you know how much food that is? the only way i can think of doing it would be on a liquid diet, and it would be pointless anyway, eating all that and training so much, they would kind of offset each other

www.uk-muscle.co.uk is full of competing bodybuilders, some who bodybuild for a living and most who make it their sole purpose in life, start a thread called - could you put on lean muscle eating 8000 calories a day at 10 stone - and see what the response is, argue it is manny pac you are talking about, and see if you get any further

You said over 23's don't generally put on lean muscle.

"The second part of Ariza’s training module involves extremely high caloric intake. He has Pacquiao consuming over 7000 calories of food per day, alternating between high protein solid foods and then liquid protein shakes. Pacquiao is forced to eat at least every two hours, whether he’s hungry or not. Contrary to the myth that Pacquiao enjoys fighting at higher weights because he can eat all he wants, Ariza says the constant consumption of food actually gets to the fighter, even if he’s eating his favorite Filipino dishes."

This is taken from an interview with Pacquiao's nutritionist and the full article is on this site

http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...gime-diet.html

He doesn't give an exact figure but he mentions that it is above 7,000 cals, so for arguments sake let's settle on 7,000.

He has to eat that much because if he went much lower, he wouldn't eat enough to meet his energy requirements. His energy requirements are so high because he undertakes a very vigorous training camp.

You keep mentioning that he can't possibly put on lean muscle when his calories are so high and when he's naturally so small. I'll try and explain it differently to you mate...

If he's consuming 7,000 calories per day day, but burning off 6,500 that's an aggregate of 500 calories. Now that is the same as you consuming 2,500 and burning off 2,000. The only difference is, Manny's activity level is much much higher than yours, so he needs to up his calorie intake to compensate for it. If he didn't, he wouldn't be able to maintain his existing weight, let alone put on weight.

Are you with me so far?

Quick recap....he has to consume more calories than he is burning off. So that's why it's above 7,000. From that information you can gather he is burning around 6,000 - 6,500 calories per day through training camp.


Edit: As for his weight gain, i posted pictures of 'tale of the tapes' from his fight with Morales right up until his fight with Clottey. His weight come fight night only showed a 5lb differential. Inn other words, even at Super-Featherweight against Morales in 06, Manny weighed 144lbs on the night of the fight. Against Clottey in 2010 he weighed 149lbs. People tend to ignore this when pointing out he has moved up several divisions, but it's unfair to do so. His fight night weight is his more natural weight. His weigh-in weight will vary depending on the level of dehydration and muscle glycogen depletion. So in real terms, he's actually only 5lb heavier than he was 4 years ago.

you need to keep callories to put on muscle dude

im telling you, what you are explaining a person wouldnt put on any muscle at all

they would be extremely fit, but they wouldnt gain muscle

if you are eating 7000 callories and burning 6500 with this training routine you would struggle to maintain your weight

if this was posible then every bodybuilder in the world would be doing it

[erics44]

"Eric the fitness guru" Lol!

i know my shit dude

[erics44]

Mate let him be, Eric is right everytime in his mind when in truth he is wrong more or less everytime.

i could say the same about you bro

[Dizaster]

Basically, it's not that big of a deal. It could very easily have been achieved by any athlete who increases his nutritonal intake. The other thing people talk about is the fact that he's carried his power up. But even when you look at that, he actually is pretty much the same. Cotto and Hatton were both hurt/knocked out because they were moving forwards at the pointof impact. Diaz was ko'd after taking an absolute pummelling. Oscar and Clottey weren't really hurt because they were constantly on the back foot, both in survival mode. Pacquiao's power comes from his speed and accuracy. Mayweather has never been a knockout puncher but he ko'd Hatton because Hatton walked onto the shot. If Margarito walks onto a few, he might find himself on his arse. That's just how getting punched in the face works.

i promise you pal, its not easily achieved

like i said in the pac v marg thread, to gain anything more than a couple to 5 maybe pounds of lean muscle a year is a fantastic achievement, anymore is almost unheard of

bodybuilders generally dont build lean muscle after they are 23 years old ish

they bulk and cut, so they gain more than a couple of pounds of muscle in a year, andything upto 10 or 15 pounds but they put on masses of fat as well during a bulk, then they diet and cut the fat

you check out pics of famous bodybuilders off season

Mate, once again you're talking absolute bollocks.

The comment i have highlighted is so stupid, it deserves a special mention. Testosterone levels reach a peak around the mid 20's. After that, they start to slowly decline. That is why it is harder for a person to add muscle mass as they get older. However, to say people don't build lean muscle once they're about 23 is absolute tosh.

You don't need to promise me anything. I suggest you take the time to read through a Sport's Nutrition textbook, or read the carbohydrate section of the Sport's Nutrition Bible, which is authored by me, in the training section of this very site.

Getting back to Pacquiao. His natural weight, or his weigh-in weight has increased by around 15lbs, in 4 years. Once again, that isn't unrealistic for an athlete who is consuming 8,000 cals per day. It's also worth mentioning that the higher he goes up in weight, the less he has to deplete himself before the weigh-in. So a Pacquiao weighing at 129 isn't really a true reflection of his actual weight because he will have more han likely have been dehydrated, wheras for a fight at Welterweight, he can actually afford to be hydrated and he can afford for his muscle glycogen stores to be close to being fully loaded. This in itself will account for around 6 or 7lbs.

Like i said, he's done nothing that's even remotely out of the ordinary here.

But please, carry on with your cliched nonsense

I will second and stand 100% by that.... And we're not talking about the average Westener gym junkie hang around in gyms and online forums..
This is a Philippine athlete. The Philippine physique and genetics is already much better at keeping off the fat.. So he won't be as likely to put on the pounds of fat that some people are expecting of him in the off season or when he's trying to gain weight in any forum (bulk then cut)....
And again, this is not the average Western Gym/forum junkie,,,, this is one of the fittest peak athletes on the planet. A person who would work 10 times harder than anyone you would find on a muscle forum... He's also got expert nutritionists who work with nutrition of sports people all day every day.. That's what they get paid for... They are not people who've read articles or got some experience of themselves and then tell everyone how it is.....

As Ono said, for Pac to get down to the lower weights, that would have taken a LOT of work... Moving up less so.... He would be working just as hard in the gym, except they would have upped his calories and proteins etc to bring him up to the higher weights and maintain his muscle and ripped look...

go to weightgaintips.com to see what is possible in regards to lean muscle with the appropriate workout and diet.... And that of course doesn't represent everyone, but if someone is in the gym for a year and seriously only puts on a good 5 pounds of muscle mass in a year, then they are doing something seriously fucking wrong... Overtraining, shit diet, shit workout (high reps/low weight)... So to say it's only realistic to put on 5 pounds of muscle mass a year is just silly...

And we are talking about Manny Pacquaio, who has been known to work as hard as any boxer in history...

Nothing of his physique or gains gives me any suspicion what so ever....