The Case Against Julio Cesar Chavez

[ElTerribleMorales]

titofan,

your outrageous denial of chavez' accomplishments borders on lunacy! and for the millionth time, you keep harping about chavez' 40 bums. did you or did you not know that most of the all-time greats also had their big share of bums as well? why are you only targeting chavez' record? look at some of the all-time greats, like joe louis, henry armstrong, rocky marciano, and many, many others...these guys built part of their impressive records on alot of bums with losing records.

here is what i found out of chavez' record, after he won his first world title, he fought one fighter with a losing record. this is far, far less than many of the great fighters of yesteryear. but you seem to be silent on this, i wonder why?

look, you want the truth? i'll give you the god damned truth, the truth of the matter is this, the only reason why you tend to belittle chavez' accomplishments is because he has accomplished more than all your PR champions in history! i'm sorry to tell you the truth but it just had to be said, right here, right now.

i mean the envy you, morales and other PR's have for chavez is just really sad.

the way you can't get PR out your mouth says it all, i know you wish you were a part of this great island but well you're not, Titofan and me haven't disputed any of Chavez SR's accomplishments, he's a sure fire HOF'er, but just as OTHER BIGGER NAME FIGHTERS tend to be overrated well Chavez as well is overrated a hell of a lot of times

do i agree with the original post in this thread? no, using that type of deducing you can make ANY GREAT fighter look like shit when all the FACTS prove otherwise

just cause someone does guzzle down YOUR favorite fighters balls doesn't mean that their envious, but you get pissy and have a little bitch fit everytime someone doesn't agree with you, hell the whole Chavez JR thread is proof of that, Jr is utter shit and will only reach B level success, that's MY OPINION, and it's not due to envy it's because the pussy doesn't step it up at all, he fought one of the crappiest Middleweight's in the last 10 yrs (when you can't get by an ancient Campas well you know you're crap), and now he's fighting one of the smallest fighters to come out of The Pretender (and the same dude who was stomped out by Cotto in 5, hell he was even dropped by jabs), you bitch about Donaire always fighting smaller guys, yet you're ok with Chavez Jr doing the same exact thing, actually hold that, Donaire's at least fighting decent guys in Maldonado and Concepcion, unlike Chavez Jr, both guys need to pick it up but at least one guy is in talks of fighting with one of the best Bantams in the world (Montiel) and the other is fighting a bum (Gomez), you're the most biased poster on here who can never see past a fucking flag

Donaire had a good amateur career. Chavez Jr didn't. Not to mention Donaire is foolishly place on some p4p lists. More is expected of him as he's suppose to be justifying that standing. He hasn't even come close to doing that. Bad comparison/example

i agree with you completely, Donaire shouldn't be on the p4p list, his biggest win was against Darchinyan when Darchinyan himself didn't have the biggest wins of his career, but it's kinda ridiculous to keep using lack of amateur experience as an excuse for a guy to keep fighting the same level of tomato cans (granted that Chavez Jr has now jumped from fighting C Level fighters to B- Level fighters)

[Violent Demise]

titofan,

your outrageous denial of chavez' accomplishments borders on lunacy! and for the millionth time, you keep harping about chavez' 40 bums. did you or did you not know that most of the all-time greats also had their big share of bums as well? why are you only targeting chavez' record? look at some of the all-time greats, like joe louis, henry armstrong, rocky marciano, and many, many others...these guys built part of their impressive records on alot of bums with losing records.

here is what i found out of chavez' record, after he won his first world title, he fought one fighter with a losing record. this is far, far less than many of the great fighters of yesteryear. but you seem to be silent on this, i wonder why?

look, you want the truth? i'll give you the god damned truth, the truth of the matter is this, the only reason why you tend to belittle chavez' accomplishments is because he has accomplished more than all your PR champions in history! i'm sorry to tell you the truth but it just had to be said, right here, right now.

i mean the envy you, morales and other PR's have for chavez is just really sad.

the way you can't get PR out your mouth says it all, i know you wish you were a part of this great island but well you're not, Titofan and me haven't disputed any of Chavez SR's accomplishments, he's a sure fire HOF'er, but just as OTHER BIGGER NAME FIGHTERS tend to be overrated well Chavez as well is overrated a hell of a lot of times

do i agree with the original post in this thread? no, using that type of deducing you can make ANY GREAT fighter look like shit when all the FACTS prove otherwise

just cause someone does guzzle down YOUR favorite fighters balls doesn't mean that their envious, but you get pissy and have a little bitch fit everytime someone doesn't agree with you, hell the whole Chavez JR thread is proof of that, Jr is utter shit and will only reach B level success, that's MY OPINION, and it's not due to envy it's because the pussy doesn't step it up at all, he fought one of the crappiest Middleweight's in the last 10 yrs (when you can't get by an ancient Campas well you know you're crap), and now he's fighting one of the smallest fighters to come out of The Pretender (and the same dude who was stomped out by Cotto in 5, hell he was even dropped by jabs), you bitch about Donaire always fighting smaller guys, yet you're ok with Chavez Jr doing the same exact thing, actually hold that, Donaire's at least fighting decent guys in Maldonado and Concepcion, unlike Chavez Jr, both guys need to pick it up but at least one guy is in talks of fighting with one of the best Bantams in the world (Montiel) and the other is fighting a bum (Gomez), you're the most biased poster on here who can never see past a fucking flag

Donaire had a good amateur career. Chavez Jr didn't. Not to mention Donaire is foolishly place on some p4p lists. More is expected of him as he's suppose to be justifying that standing. He hasn't even come close to doing that. Bad comparison/example

i agree with you completely, Donaire shouldn't be on the p4p list, his biggest win was against Darchinyan when Darchinyan himself didn't have the biggest wins of his career, but it's kinda ridiculous to keep using lack of amateur experience as an excuse for a guy to keep fighting the same level of tomato cans (granted that Chavez Jr has now jumped from fighting C Level fighters to B- Level fighters)

On the job training is all it was. You don't like hearing about it cuz it don't suit you. But think about it. Your son and your nephew both turn pro. Your son never fought as an amateur. Your nephew on the other hand had over 100 amateur fights in different places in the world. The 2 opponents are 16-3 and 2-23. You gonna put your son in with the 16-3 fighter? No your not. Your nephew is more experience and better equipped to fight him. Your son gets the 2-23 fighter. Cuz even though there both are turning pro at the same time. There not equipped the same. You can't match them up the same.

[generalbulldog]

JCC is an atg, sure he had a few bums on his resume here and there even after a certain point, but again who doesn't? Duran is 1 of my favorite fighters ever, but after he was LW champ, he still fought some guys with shit records. After the Buchannan fight for the LW title he fought a guy that was 11-3-1 and then fought a guy that was 12-10 before he fought De Jesus, he also had a few guys that were 0-3 and 0-2 a few times, and this is a prime Duran. Marvin Hagler had a very good amateur career, fought mostly bums with shit records for his first 49 fights before facing Anterfuomo. Some really atrocious records those fighters had, and Hagler is one of the top 3 fighters in my list.

So I don't know why people are pointing this out about JCC, it's not a big deal imo.

[JazMerkin]

JCC is an atg, sure he had a few bums on his resume here and there even after a certain point, but again who doesn't? Duran is 1 of my favorite fighters ever, but after he was LW champ, he still fought some guys with shit records. After the Buchannan fight for the LW title he fought a guy that was 11-3-1 and then fought a guy that was 12-10 before he fought De Jesus, he also had a few guys that were 0-3 and 0-2 a few times, and this is a prime Duran. Marvin Hagler had a very good amateur career, fought mostly bums with shit records for his first 49 fights before facing Anterfuomo. Some really atrocious records those fighters had, and Hagler is one of the top 3 fighters in my list.

So I don't know why people are pointing this out about JCC, it's not a big deal imo.

This. I find a lot of people like to glorify the records of older fighters while more recent guys get given a lot of shit unfairly. An example would be seeing how the records of Oscar, Manny & Floyd actually stack up against those legends of the past, when you actually look at it they've got resumes that do stack up, it just doesn't suit their detractors to ackowledge it. I'll disagree about Hagler, I think he fought pretty damn good opp on the way up against guys who nobody wanted to fight, but his resume is not the beast many claim it to be if you consider that his most notable wins were against smaller guys coming up.

The rest I agree with. Even though I feel JCC gets a little overrated by some, he was actually a tremendously skilled fighter with his head movement & his work on the inside, it's just against quicker opposition (i.e. the Taylor & Oscar fights, the main ones people have seen) this wasn't always so apparent. It's like the idea that Duran was some face-first brawling pressure fighter that gets pushed around because people have only seen the Leonard & Hearns fights

As for the OP, not a 1st ballot Hall of Famer, get a grip. More than anyone else on this year's ballot (& I include Tyson in that), he deserves the first vote. Would you really have Kostya Tszyu in before him