De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st

[killersheep]

I hate all these catchweights and wish Manny would stop playing games with them, but having said that DLH should be the last person to be criticising Manny on this.

Cotto at 145 was unfair, but Cotto should have turned it down. Likewise, I hope Marquez sees sense and stays away from Pac if it is anything above 140. It is just not worth it. At 37 he cannot handle the weight like the younger Manny can. Marquez is a naturally smaller fighter.

Was it really relevant though? Cotto only weighed 146 for his fight against Joshua Clottey.

I don't really called losing a single pound a deal breaker. I know (as AdamGB will doubtless explain to me) a certain point below which fighters cannot drop, but 145 isn't it for Cotto. He has come up from the lower weights and weighed as low as 136 against Mallignaggi in June 2006.

Cotto would have got massacred catchweight or not, and only would have weighed a pound more.

The idea that Manny always fights at catchweight is completely overblown. Oscar wasn't a catchweight, it was at 147. Hatton wasn't at catchweight, it was at junior welter, Ricky's weight class. Clottey wasn't at catchweight either, it was at welter. Margarito was at 150 lbs but I don't see how this was at a detriment to Margarito considered he weighed under 146 against Shane Mosley only two fights previously.


Critics and moaners will always exist, but what Manny has done has been sensational.

If it wasn't relevant then why was it there? I'm sure it wasn't Cotto begging to come in at 145. The fight should have been at 147 with no questions asked. WW was a weight that Cotto had grown into. They also suggested ages back that they would only fight Mosley if he could boil down to 142. As if Mosley could ever make 142.

The DLH fight was old orange faces fault, so no blame can be put at Manny's door. And I agree that the Margarito catchweight was less questionable, it was certainly no advantage for Manny. That was a strange one.

I would just like to see title fights at the correct weights. I don't really see the need for CW's and I certainly see no reason why the worlds best fighter should be looking for little short cuts so that his nights work can be even easier.

Suggesting Marquez go anywhere north of JWW is extremely arrogant and disrespectful considering that Manny was extremely lucky to get the nod in that last fight. Manny is the one with something to prove so to stop the fight with demands before it even starts is unfair. At least offer the fans something credible like with the DLH fight. Let Manny come down a division and let Marquez go up one and meet at JWW. Anything more is just being greedy and stopping the potential of a great fight before it even starts. Marquez hasn't proven he can fight at the higher weights and Manny has shown no good reason why he couldn't make JWW.

So what you are saying is that when a fighter drops weight to meet Manny, they are at a disadvantage, and when a fighter must gain weight to fight Manny they are equally disadvantaged. The only fair solution is that Manny must yoyo up and down the divisions, no catchweights to beat all his challengers, even though he is the prize and the big payday.

Maybe he should be forced to wear lead boots as well, or have one arm tied behind his back if he starts to dominate the early rounds?

Also how is Manny the one with something to prove? Since beating Marquez he has won world titles in four more weight classes and is the p4p best fighter in the world. I have never met anyone with as blinkered a view on things as you Miles. You are the most biased person I've ever met!

i dont think he said that no bro

its funny sometimes this forum

He said Manny was wrong to drag Oscar and Cotto down in weight. And it would be arrogant and disrespectful to make Marquez move up??

How did he not say that?

every situation is different dude

marquez is small COTTO IS BIG so you cant really group it together like you did, get me?

you suggested that it made no difference to bring cotto down a couple of pounds, if thats the case then why do it?

i like pacman, but id also like to see him go into a fight where there are no new rules

It's to prevent one fighter from having an unfair size advantage on fight night.

In boxing fighters don't weigh in the same day of the fight, meaning that they can dehydrate to a weight less than their actual bodyweight and then rehydrate sometimes up to 10/15 lbs more for the fight itself, meaning that Manny would be fighting a far bigger man, as was the case against Margarito, where he weighed 17 pounds less!

If you want true fairness in the sport, the weigh in should be on the same day, to prevent fighters boiling down to fight in a weight class that they do not walk around in.

By having to weight 145 rather 146 Cotto had less potential to rehydrate to a weight significantly higher than Manny by the time of the fight itself.

It's not hard to understand why this was done.

What if they would have agreed a same day weigh in? Cotto could weight 147 but the weigh in must take place in the morning of the fight? That would have been fairer, and would have helped Manny a lot more.

Then why have weight classes at all? I believe there should be no catchweights allowed in pro boxing at all, you are following the rules of a weightclass or you aren't. If you are going to move up to fight bigger men, then that's exactly what you should be doing fighting bigger men, not fighting with an asterisk. Of course, noone's going to take a stand when a 6-7 figure payday is on the line.

[Kev]

Then why have weight classes at all? I believe there should be no catchweights allowed in pro boxing at all, you are following the rules of a weightclass or you aren't. If you are going to move up to fight bigger men, then that's exactly what you should be doing fighting bigger men, not fighting with an asterisk. Of course, noone's going to take a stand when a 6-7 figure payday is on the line.

Well actually I would agree. But the bigger men are already the beneficiaries of an unfair advantage having a full 24 hours from the time of the weigh in to the fight itself.

How is that fair?

Some people moaned about Manny winning a junior middleweight title at a catchweight of 150lbs, but that weigh in was the day before the fight.

Margarito actually weighed in at 165 lbs at the time of the fight.

You can't have it both ways. Under the current system biggers guys have an unfair advantage of being able to boil down to fight in a division many pounds lighter than the weight they walk around at.

Allow Manny's opponents to weigh in at the maximum weight limit. But make sure they enter the ring at that weight.

That's surely fair. Under those circumstances Manny's advantage would be even greater.

Because of this disparity catchweights are a necessary evil. All they do is level the playing field that is already biased in favour of the naturally bigger fighter.

[killersheep]

Then why have weight classes at all? I believe there should be no catchweights allowed in pro boxing at all, you are following the rules of a weightclass or you aren't. If you are going to move up to fight bigger men, then that's exactly what you should be doing fighting bigger men, not fighting with an asterisk. Of course, noone's going to take a stand when a 6-7 figure payday is on the line.

Well actually I would agree. But the bigger men are already the beneficiaries of an unfair advantage having a full 24 hours from the time of the weigh in to the fight itself.

How is that fair?

Some people moaned about Manny winning a junior middleweight title at a catchweight of 150lbs, but that weigh in was the day before the fight.

Margarito actually weighed in at 165 lbs at the time of the fight.

You can't have it both ways. Under the current system biggers guys have an unfair advantage of being able to boil down to fight in a division many pounds lighter than the weight they walk around at.

Allow Manny's opponents to weigh in at the maximum weight limit. But make sure they enter the ring at that weight.

That's surely fair. Under those circumstances Manny's advantage would be even greater.

Because of this disparity catchweights are a necessary evil. All they do is level the playing field that is already biased in favour of the naturally bigger fighter.

I am in the minority that believes same day weigh-ins should be the norm. But the logic of having an unfair advantage by using the normal rules of a weight class is ridiculous. That would be like Qatar's soccer team play against England's but England wouldn't be allowed to have a goalie or any player to enter their own penalty box. Wait, bad example, but still you get the point. Margarito coming in heavier isn't anything out of the norm for the division, noone is forcing Pacquiao to move up in weight, if he chooses to fight there, he should fight in the terms of the division if it's too much of a disadvantage then fight in a lower weight class, that's what we have weight classes for.

[Kev]

Then why have weight classes at all? I believe there should be no catchweights allowed in pro boxing at all, you are following the rules of a weightclass or you aren't. If you are going to move up to fight bigger men, then that's exactly what you should be doing fighting bigger men, not fighting with an asterisk. Of course, noone's going to take a stand when a 6-7 figure payday is on the line.

Well actually I would agree. But the bigger men are already the beneficiaries of an unfair advantage having a full 24 hours from the time of the weigh in to the fight itself.

How is that fair?

Some people moaned about Manny winning a junior middleweight title at a catchweight of 150lbs, but that weigh in was the day before the fight.

Margarito actually weighed in at 165 lbs at the time of the fight.

You can't have it both ways. Under the current system biggers guys have an unfair advantage of being able to boil down to fight in a division many pounds lighter than the weight they walk around at.

Allow Manny's opponents to weigh in at the maximum weight limit. But make sure they enter the ring at that weight.

That's surely fair. Under those circumstances Manny's advantage would be even greater.

Because of this disparity catchweights are a necessary evil. All they do is level the playing field that is already biased in favour of the naturally bigger fighter.

I am in the minority that believes same day weigh-ins should be the norm. But the logic of having an unfair advantage by using the normal rules of a weight class is ridiculous. That would be like Qatar's soccer team play against England's but England wouldn't be allowed to have a goalie or any player to enter their own penalty box. Wait, bad example, but still you get the point. Margarito coming in heavier isn't anything out of the norm for the division, noone is forcing Pacquiao to move up in weight, if he chooses to fight there, he should fight in the terms of the division if it's too much of a disadvantage then fight in a lower weight class, that's what we have weight classes for.

I don't see how Manny has an 'unfair' advantage though? The unfairness arises out of the 24 hour window that allows fighters to fight in weight class in which they are too big.

If fighters were not allowed to enter the ring above the weight limit then it would be a whole different ball game and much better for the sport. As it stands, every bigger man has an unfair advantage every time they enter the ring thanks to not having to actually weigh on fight night what they are supposed to according to the weight limit.

I just can't see how people can't see both sides of the coin here?

If a fighter can enter the ring 10 or even 15 lbs more than the weight limit how is that fair?

By asking for a catchweight all Manny is doing is ensuring that a fighter cannot rehydrate to such a high level, thus negating the advantage they would otherwise be able to accumalate.

If having to weight 2 lbs less than the max weight limit for the fight 24 hours before is too much of a strain for the bigger man, then clearly they are fighting in a weight class that is too small for them.

When a smaller guy is moving up, a catchweight is actually a fair fight.

In the case of Miguel Cotto for example, he weighed over the 147 lb weight limit by the time he stepped in the ring with Manny. So imo it was a full welterweight fight.

Catchweights wouldn't need to exist if the sport was more fair in the first place.

[erics44]

Then why have weight classes at all? I believe there should be no catchweights allowed in pro boxing at all, you are following the rules of a weightclass or you aren't. If you are going to move up to fight bigger men, then that's exactly what you should be doing fighting bigger men, not fighting with an asterisk. Of course, noone's going to take a stand when a 6-7 figure payday is on the line.

Well actually I would agree. But the bigger men are already the beneficiaries of an unfair advantage having a full 24 hours from the time of the weigh in to the fight itself.

How is that fair?

Some people moaned about Manny winning a junior middleweight title at a catchweight of 150lbs, but that weigh in was the day before the fight.

Margarito actually weighed in at 165 lbs at the time of the fight.

You can't have it both ways. Under the current system biggers guys have an unfair advantage of being able to boil down to fight in a division many pounds lighter than the weight they walk around at.

Allow Manny's opponents to weigh in at the maximum weight limit. But make sure they enter the ring at that weight.

That's surely fair. Under those circumstances Manny's advantage would be even greater.

Because of this disparity catchweights are a necessary evil. All they do is level the playing field that is already biased in favour of the naturally bigger fighter.

I am in the minority that believes same day weigh-ins should be the norm. But the logic of having an unfair advantage by using the normal rules of a weight class is ridiculous. That would be like Qatar's soccer team play against England's but England wouldn't be allowed to have a goalie or any player to enter their own penalty box. Wait, bad example, but still you get the point. Margarito coming in heavier isn't anything out of the norm for the division, noone is forcing Pacquiao to move up in weight, if he chooses to fight there, he should fight in the terms of the division if it's too much of a disadvantage then fight in a lower weight class, that's what we have weight classes for.

I don't see how Manny has an 'unfair' advantage though? The unfairness arises out of the 24 hour window that allows fighters to fight in weight class in which they are too big.

If fighters were not allowed to enter the ring above the weight limit then it would be a whole different ball game and much better for the sport. As it stands, every bigger man has an unfair advantage every time they enter the ring thanks to not having to actually weigh on fight night what they are supposed to according to the weight limit.

I just can't see how people can't see both sides of the coin here?

If a fighter can enter the ring 10 or even 15 lbs more than the weight limit how is that fair?

By asking for a catchweight all Manny is doing is ensuring that a fighter cannot rehydrate to such a high level, thus negating the advantage they would otherwise be able to accumalate.

If having to weight 2 lbs less than the max weight limit for the fight 24 hours before is too much of a strain for the bigger man, then clearly they are fighting in a weight class that is too small for them.

When a smaller guy is moving up, a catchweight is actually a fair fight.

In the case of Miguel Cotto for example, he weighed over the 147 lb weight limit by the time he stepped in the ring with Manny. So imo it was a full welterweight fight.

Catchweights wouldn't need to exist if the sport was more fair in the first place.

dont forget Manny is fighting above his natural weight class, so they cant/shouldnt change the rules to suit him

if he wants to step out of his weight class then he will be fighting bigger fighters wouldnt he?

[Kev]

Then why have weight classes at all? I believe there should be no catchweights allowed in pro boxing at all, you are following the rules of a weightclass or you aren't. If you are going to move up to fight bigger men, then that's exactly what you should be doing fighting bigger men, not fighting with an asterisk. Of course, noone's going to take a stand when a 6-7 figure payday is on the line.

Well actually I would agree. But the bigger men are already the beneficiaries of an unfair advantage having a full 24 hours from the time of the weigh in to the fight itself.

How is that fair?

Some people moaned about Manny winning a junior middleweight title at a catchweight of 150lbs, but that weigh in was the day before the fight.

Margarito actually weighed in at 165 lbs at the time of the fight.

You can't have it both ways. Under the current system biggers guys have an unfair advantage of being able to boil down to fight in a division many pounds lighter than the weight they walk around at.

Allow Manny's opponents to weigh in at the maximum weight limit. But make sure they enter the ring at that weight.

That's surely fair. Under those circumstances Manny's advantage would be even greater.

Because of this disparity catchweights are a necessary evil. All they do is level the playing field that is already biased in favour of the naturally bigger fighter.

I am in the minority that believes same day weigh-ins should be the norm. But the logic of having an unfair advantage by using the normal rules of a weight class is ridiculous. That would be like Qatar's soccer team play against England's but England wouldn't be allowed to have a goalie or any player to enter their own penalty box. Wait, bad example, but still you get the point. Margarito coming in heavier isn't anything out of the norm for the division, noone is forcing Pacquiao to move up in weight, if he chooses to fight there, he should fight in the terms of the division if it's too much of a disadvantage then fight in a lower weight class, that's what we have weight classes for.

I don't see how Manny has an 'unfair' advantage though? The unfairness arises out of the 24 hour window that allows fighters to fight in weight class in which they are too big.

If fighters were not allowed to enter the ring above the weight limit then it would be a whole different ball game and much better for the sport. As it stands, every bigger man has an unfair advantage every time they enter the ring thanks to not having to actually weigh on fight night what they are supposed to according to the weight limit.

I just can't see how people can't see both sides of the coin here?

If a fighter can enter the ring 10 or even 15 lbs more than the weight limit how is that fair?

By asking for a catchweight all Manny is doing is ensuring that a fighter cannot rehydrate to such a high level, thus negating the advantage they would otherwise be able to accumalate.

If having to weight 2 lbs less than the max weight limit for the fight 24 hours before is too much of a strain for the bigger man, then clearly they are fighting in a weight class that is too small for them.

When a smaller guy is moving up, a catchweight is actually a fair fight.

In the case of Miguel Cotto for example, he weighed over the 147 lb weight limit by the time he stepped in the ring with Manny. So imo it was a full welterweight fight.

Catchweights wouldn't need to exist if the sport was more fair in the first place.

dont forget Manny is fighting above his natural weight class, so they cant/shouldnt change the rules to suit him

if he wants to step out of his weight class then he will be fighting bigger fighters wouldnt he?

They aren't changing the rules to suit him. Catchweights have been a feature of boxing for decades. The Gatti Ward fights were at catchweight, the second Leonard Hearns fight was at catchweight, even Oscar dragged Bernard Hopkins down to a catchweight.

As I explained above, catchweights exist for a reason. To enable a smaller man to fight a bigger man on a level playing field.

I don't understand how fight fans want to put obstacles in front of the biggest fights being made. A fighter like Manny is a phenonemon, a rare talent who is skillful enough, and brave enough to step far outside of his comfort zone and climb through more weight classes than any other fighter in history.

Because of the 24 hour weigh in rule, his size disadvantage is already compounded by ensuring that his opponents can weigh even more than the agrred maximum weight limit come fight time, so when fighting for a welter weight title, his opponents routinely weight over 150lbs and for a light middleweight crown, they can climb over the ropes weighing even more than a middleweight.

By having a fighter agree to a catchweight (and Manny has only done this twice in his career!!) that fighter has less opportunity to rehydrate far above the maximum weight limit by the time the fight takes place.

To say that Cotto and Margarito (his only ever catchweight fights) were disadvantaged is unfair. Both fighters actually weighed MORE than the 147 and 154 limits when the fights actually occurred, and neither had to lose excessive weigh in the first place.

Cotto gave up only a single pound more than he did against Clottey, and Margarito has been a career welterweight who weighed 4 lbs below 150 against Shane Mosley.

The whole argument is a complete straw man.

Manny has been tearing through guys because he really is that good (either that or PEDS if you think he's cheating), not because his opponents have been forced to drain themselves, as no fighter has ever had to step over the ropes weighing anything less than the maximum weight limit.

It's typical for people for moan and gripe, because large sections of the human race are sadly almost entirely negative, just witness the histrionics regarding the huge burden the Royal wedding will put on the poor British taxpayers for example. In fact now schools are complaining the wedding is in April as it will interrupt the poor kids as they revise for their GCSE's.

Some people will want to put a negative spin on everything, but they simply cannot see the woods for the trees.

Manny is a sensational, sensational talent. He has done what no other fighter in history has done, yet people still moan about him.

[Mar]

I still belive if you're dumb enough to fight at these catchweights and give pac the advantage that's your bad. Pac and his team are smart in their matchmaking and you can't fault the guy for that. But i am tired of seeing catchweights. It's crazy that manny can't make welter with a full stomach but he's considered champ. He's had no problem draining other fighters but won't even consider dropping to make the fight more fair with marquez. Everyone damn near shed a tear when mayweather beat up on a so called smaller guy yet people want to see pac do the same thing. This is one time i happen to agree with pac and his crew. Fight at 147 or 140 no more stupid catchweights. Same should be for pac and any of his future opponets. Should have been like that for his past one's too. Since when it comes to marquez they are so so sold on 147 or nothing then let that be the same for mosely, berto, martinez, whoever. Don't say i'll fight juan at 147 but actual 147 guys at 144 that's as silly as andre ward fighting all his fights at home. Can't knock ward for getting his opponets to agree to that crap either.......but it's getting old. If marquez and pac did fight, i still think pac would win again. Just for the record.

[erics44]

Then why have weight classes at all? I believe there should be no catchweights allowed in pro boxing at all, you are following the rules of a weightclass or you aren't. If you are going to move up to fight bigger men, then that's exactly what you should be doing fighting bigger men, not fighting with an asterisk. Of course, noone's going to take a stand when a 6-7 figure payday is on the line.

Well actually I would agree. But the bigger men are already the beneficiaries of an unfair advantage having a full 24 hours from the time of the weigh in to the fight itself.

How is that fair?

Some people moaned about Manny winning a junior middleweight title at a catchweight of 150lbs, but that weigh in was the day before the fight.

Margarito actually weighed in at 165 lbs at the time of the fight.

You can't have it both ways. Under the current system biggers guys have an unfair advantage of being able to boil down to fight in a division many pounds lighter than the weight they walk around at.

Allow Manny's opponents to weigh in at the maximum weight limit. But make sure they enter the ring at that weight.

That's surely fair. Under those circumstances Manny's advantage would be even greater.

Because of this disparity catchweights are a necessary evil. All they do is level the playing field that is already biased in favour of the naturally bigger fighter.

I am in the minority that believes same day weigh-ins should be the norm. But the logic of having an unfair advantage by using the normal rules of a weight class is ridiculous. That would be like Qatar's soccer team play against England's but England wouldn't be allowed to have a goalie or any player to enter their own penalty box. Wait, bad example, but still you get the point. Margarito coming in heavier isn't anything out of the norm for the division, noone is forcing Pacquiao to move up in weight, if he chooses to fight there, he should fight in the terms of the division if it's too much of a disadvantage then fight in a lower weight class, that's what we have weight classes for.

I don't see how Manny has an 'unfair' advantage though? The unfairness arises out of the 24 hour window that allows fighters to fight in weight class in which they are too big.

If fighters were not allowed to enter the ring above the weight limit then it would be a whole different ball game and much better for the sport. As it stands, every bigger man has an unfair advantage every time they enter the ring thanks to not having to actually weigh on fight night what they are supposed to according to the weight limit.

I just can't see how people can't see both sides of the coin here?

If a fighter can enter the ring 10 or even 15 lbs more than the weight limit how is that fair?

By asking for a catchweight all Manny is doing is ensuring that a fighter cannot rehydrate to such a high level, thus negating the advantage they would otherwise be able to accumalate.

If having to weight 2 lbs less than the max weight limit for the fight 24 hours before is too much of a strain for the bigger man, then clearly they are fighting in a weight class that is too small for them.

When a smaller guy is moving up, a catchweight is actually a fair fight.

In the case of Miguel Cotto for example, he weighed over the 147 lb weight limit by the time he stepped in the ring with Manny. So imo it was a full welterweight fight.

Catchweights wouldn't need to exist if the sport was more fair in the first place.

dont forget Manny is fighting above his natural weight class, so they cant/shouldnt change the rules to suit him

if he wants to step out of his weight class then he will be fighting bigger fighters wouldnt he?

They aren't changing the rules to suit him. Catchweights have been a feature of boxing for decades. The Gatti Ward fights were at catchweight, the second Leonard Hearns fight was at catchweight, even Oscar dragged Bernard Hopkins down to a catchweight.

As I explained above, catchweights exist for a reason. To enable a smaller man to fight a bigger man on a level playing field.

I don't understand how fight fans want to put obstacles in front of the biggest fights being made. A fighter like Manny is a phenonemon, a rare talent who is skillful enough, and brave enough to step far outside of his comfort zone and climb through more weight classes than any other fighter in history.

Because of the 24 hour weigh in rule, his size disadvantage is already compounded by ensuring that his opponents can weigh even more than the agrred maximum weight limit come fight time, so when fighting for a welter weight title, his opponents routinely weight over 150lbs and for a light middleweight crown, they can climb over the ropes weighing even more than a middleweight.

By having a fighter agree to a catchweight (and Manny has only done this twice in his career!!) that fighter has less opportunity to rehydrate far above the maximum weight limit by the time the fight takes place.

To say that Cotto and Margarito (his only ever catchweight fights) were disadvantaged is unfair. Both fighters actually weighed MORE than the 147 and 154 limits when the fights actually occurred, and neither had to lose excessive weigh in the first place.

Cotto gave up only a single pound more than he did against Clottey, and Margarito has been a career welterweight who weighed 4 lbs below 150 against Shane Mosley.

The whole argument is a complete straw man.

Manny has been tearing through guys because he really is that good (either that or PEDS if you think he's cheating), not because his opponents have been forced to drain themselves, as no fighter has ever had to step over the ropes weighing anything less than the maximum weight limit.

It's typical for people for moan and gripe, because large sections of the human race are sadly almost entirely negative, just witness the histrionics regarding the huge burden the Royal wedding will put on the poor British taxpayers for example. In fact now schools are complaining the wedding is in April as it will interrupt the poor kids as they revise for their GCSE's.

Some people will want to put a negative spin on everything, but they simply cannot see the woods for the trees.

Manny is a sensational, sensational talent. He has done what no other fighter in history has done, yet people still moan about him.

they ould be changing teh rules to suit him if they weighed in on the same day of the fight because it would be fairer for manny

so when manny steps up in weight he has to expect to fight bigger fighters doesnt he?

were these fights you talk about for world titles?

[InTheNeutralCorner]

Then why have weight classes at all? I believe there should be no catchweights allowed in pro boxing at all, you are following the rules of a weightclass or you aren't. If you are going to move up to fight bigger men, then that's exactly what you should be doing fighting bigger men, not fighting with an asterisk. Of course, noone's going to take a stand when a 6-7 figure payday is on the line.

Well actually I would agree. But the bigger men are already the beneficiaries of an unfair advantage having a full 24 hours from the time of the weigh in to the fight itself.

How is that fair?

Some people moaned about Manny winning a junior middleweight title at a catchweight of 150lbs, but that weigh in was the day before the fight.

Margarito actually weighed in at 165 lbs at the time of the fight.

You can't have it both ways. Under the current system biggers guys have an unfair advantage of being able to boil down to fight in a division many pounds lighter than the weight they walk around at.

Allow Manny's opponents to weigh in at the maximum weight limit. But make sure they enter the ring at that weight.

That's surely fair. Under those circumstances Manny's advantage would be even greater.

Because of this disparity catchweights are a necessary evil. All they do is level the playing field that is already biased in favour of the naturally bigger fighter.

I am in the minority that believes same day weigh-ins should be the norm. But the logic of having an unfair advantage by using the normal rules of a weight class is ridiculous. That would be like Qatar's soccer team play against England's but England wouldn't be allowed to have a goalie or any player to enter their own penalty box. Wait, bad example, but still you get the point. Margarito coming in heavier isn't anything out of the norm for the division, noone is forcing Pacquiao to move up in weight, if he chooses to fight there, he should fight in the terms of the division if it's too much of a disadvantage then fight in a lower weight class, that's what we have weight classes for.

I don't see how Manny has an 'unfair' advantage though? The unfairness arises out of the 24 hour window that allows fighters to fight in weight class in which they are too big.

If fighters were not allowed to enter the ring above the weight limit then it would be a whole different ball game and much better for the sport. As it stands, every bigger man has an unfair advantage every time they enter the ring thanks to not having to actually weigh on fight night what they are supposed to according to the weight limit.

I just can't see how people can't see both sides of the coin here?

If a fighter can enter the ring 10 or even 15 lbs more than the weight limit how is that fair?

By asking for a catchweight all Manny is doing is ensuring that a fighter cannot rehydrate to such a high level, thus negating the advantage they would otherwise be able to accumalate.

If having to weight 2 lbs less than the max weight limit for the fight 24 hours before is too much of a strain for the bigger man, then clearly they are fighting in a weight class that is too small for them.

When a smaller guy is moving up, a catchweight is actually a fair fight.

In the case of Miguel Cotto for example, he weighed over the 147 lb weight limit by the time he stepped in the ring with Manny. So imo it was a full welterweight fight.

Catchweights wouldn't need to exist if the sport was more fair in the first place.

dont forget Manny is fighting above his natural weight class, so they cant/shouldnt change the rules to suit him

if he wants to step out of his weight class then he will be fighting bigger fighters wouldnt he?

But no rules have been changed. Catchweights has been in existence even before Manny came into the boxing scene.

There are two sides to this debate. One is the perception that Manny's camp has been asking for the catchweight in order to have an advantage over the opponent. The other is that the catchweight is there so that the opponent does not get an advantage over Manny.

Manny can easily get someone to fight him whereas those who are in line to fight him are waiting for that once in a lifetime opportunity. A win for them will do wonders in their boxing career. Since there is a conflict in the perception above, who do you think should give in?

[LukeH]

Then why have weight classes at all? I believe there should be no catchweights allowed in pro boxing at all, you are following the rules of a weightclass or you aren't. If you are going to move up to fight bigger men, then that's exactly what you should be doing fighting bigger men, not fighting with an asterisk. Of course, noone's going to take a stand when a 6-7 figure payday is on the line.

Well actually I would agree. But the bigger men are already the beneficiaries of an unfair advantage having a full 24 hours from the time of the weigh in to the fight itself.

How is that fair?

Some people moaned about Manny winning a junior middleweight title at a catchweight of 150lbs, but that weigh in was the day before the fight.

Margarito actually weighed in at 165 lbs at the time of the fight.

You can't have it both ways. Under the current system biggers guys have an unfair advantage of being able to boil down to fight in a division many pounds lighter than the weight they walk around at.

Allow Manny's opponents to weigh in at the maximum weight limit. But make sure they enter the ring at that weight.

That's surely fair. Under those circumstances Manny's advantage would be even greater.

Because of this disparity catchweights are a necessary evil. All they do is level the playing field that is already biased in favour of the naturally bigger fighter.

I am in the minority that believes same day weigh-ins should be the norm. But the logic of having an unfair advantage by using the normal rules of a weight class is ridiculous. That would be like Qatar's soccer team play against England's but England wouldn't be allowed to have a goalie or any player to enter their own penalty box. Wait, bad example, but still you get the point. Margarito coming in heavier isn't anything out of the norm for the division, noone is forcing Pacquiao to move up in weight, if he chooses to fight there, he should fight in the terms of the division if it's too much of a disadvantage then fight in a lower weight class, that's what we have weight classes for.

I don't see how Manny has an 'unfair' advantage though? The unfairness arises out of the 24 hour window that allows fighters to fight in weight class in which they are too big.

If fighters were not allowed to enter the ring above the weight limit then it would be a whole different ball game and much better for the sport. As it stands, every bigger man has an unfair advantage every time they enter the ring thanks to not having to actually weigh on fight night what they are supposed to according to the weight limit.

I just can't see how people can't see both sides of the coin here?

If a fighter can enter the ring 10 or even 15 lbs more than the weight limit how is that fair?

By asking for a catchweight all Manny is doing is ensuring that a fighter cannot rehydrate to such a high level, thus negating the advantage they would otherwise be able to accumalate.

If having to weight 2 lbs less than the max weight limit for the fight 24 hours before is too much of a strain for the bigger man, then clearly they are fighting in a weight class that is too small for them.

When a smaller guy is moving up, a catchweight is actually a fair fight.

In the case of Miguel Cotto for example, he weighed over the 147 lb weight limit by the time he stepped in the ring with Manny. So imo it was a full welterweight fight.

Catchweights wouldn't need to exist if the sport was more fair in the first place.

Surely same day weigh-ins would just mean they wouldn't be able to make the weight, so everyone would just be fighting at a higher division rather than handicapping themselves to make the lower weights, then if Pac or anyone else wanted these fights they would have to move up to that weight anyway?

[killersheep]

Then why have weight classes at all? I believe there should be no catchweights allowed in pro boxing at all, you are following the rules of a weightclass or you aren't. If you are going to move up to fight bigger men, then that's exactly what you should be doing fighting bigger men, not fighting with an asterisk. Of course, noone's going to take a stand when a 6-7 figure payday is on the line.

Well actually I would agree. But the bigger men are already the beneficiaries of an unfair advantage having a full 24 hours from the time of the weigh in to the fight itself.

How is that fair?

Some people moaned about Manny winning a junior middleweight title at a catchweight of 150lbs, but that weigh in was the day before the fight.

Margarito actually weighed in at 165 lbs at the time of the fight.

You can't have it both ways. Under the current system biggers guys have an unfair advantage of being able to boil down to fight in a division many pounds lighter than the weight they walk around at.

Allow Manny's opponents to weigh in at the maximum weight limit. But make sure they enter the ring at that weight.

That's surely fair. Under those circumstances Manny's advantage would be even greater.

Because of this disparity catchweights are a necessary evil. All they do is level the playing field that is already biased in favour of the naturally bigger fighter.

I am in the minority that believes same day weigh-ins should be the norm. But the logic of having an unfair advantage by using the normal rules of a weight class is ridiculous. That would be like Qatar's soccer team play against England's but England wouldn't be allowed to have a goalie or any player to enter their own penalty box. Wait, bad example, but still you get the point. Margarito coming in heavier isn't anything out of the norm for the division, noone is forcing Pacquiao to move up in weight, if he chooses to fight there, he should fight in the terms of the division if it's too much of a disadvantage then fight in a lower weight class, that's what we have weight classes for.

I don't see how Manny has an 'unfair' advantage though? The unfairness arises out of the 24 hour window that allows fighters to fight in weight class in which they are too big.

If fighters were not allowed to enter the ring above the weight limit then it would be a whole different ball game and much better for the sport. As it stands, every bigger man has an unfair advantage every time they enter the ring thanks to not having to actually weigh on fight night what they are supposed to according to the weight limit.

I just can't see how people can't see both sides of the coin here?

If a fighter can enter the ring 10 or even 15 lbs more than the weight limit how is that fair?

By asking for a catchweight all Manny is doing is ensuring that a fighter cannot rehydrate to such a high level, thus negating the advantage they would otherwise be able to accumalate.

If having to weight 2 lbs less than the max weight limit for the fight 24 hours before is too much of a strain for the bigger man, then clearly they are fighting in a weight class that is too small for them.

When a smaller guy is moving up, a catchweight is actually a fair fight.

In the case of Miguel Cotto for example, he weighed over the 147 lb weight limit by the time he stepped in the ring with Manny. So imo it was a full welterweight fight.

Catchweights wouldn't need to exist if the sport was more fair in the first place.

At the end of the day boxing is all about private contracts, and fighters are going to do what they want, the commissions are willing to go along with whatever is set forth as long as they profit. HOWEVER, you can look at the rules of any commission and the rules for weighing in are currently the day before the weigh in.

WBC - section 4.6 <-- Sanctioning body for Margarito/Pacquiao
http://www.wbcboxing.com/downloads/N...FINAL_2009.pdf
"Boxers shall have the final weigh-in no less than 24 hours but not more than 30 hours before the bout"

WBA - page 21 section E.5
World Boxing Association Official Site Click on Regulations tab, then click rules
"carried out between 16 and 30 hours before the bout"

WBO - section 4
REGULATIONS
The WBO does not mandate a weigh in time at all, but does have two pages on purse bids

IBF - section 1.A
http://www.ibf-usba-boxing.com/userf...amendments.pdf
The IBF has two weigh ins, the official one that's the day before (official weight) and one the morning of the fight to make sure fighters haven't gained more than 10 lbs. over the weight limit.

You also have to keep in mind that commissions, managers and even most fighters themselves are going to want prior day weigh ins, because it's a marketing tool, it gets people out, photo ops, pre fight trash talk in public view, you wouldn't get the full effect at 5-6 in the morning day of the fight.

And again you bring up fairness, but if someone is moving into a new weightclass they should abide by the current rules of that weight class or they have no business there. It's not as if Manny isn't going to make a ton of cash regardless of who he fights.

Perhaps it would help your argument if you could show some examples within the last 20 years of some fights that have used same day weigh-ins. Otherwise we are certainly talking about a social norm under the accepted current rules of the commissions.

[Kev]

Then why have weight classes at all? I believe there should be no catchweights allowed in pro boxing at all, you are following the rules of a weightclass or you aren't. If you are going to move up to fight bigger men, then that's exactly what you should be doing fighting bigger men, not fighting with an asterisk. Of course, noone's going to take a stand when a 6-7 figure payday is on the line.

Well actually I would agree. But the bigger men are already the beneficiaries of an unfair advantage having a full 24 hours from the time of the weigh in to the fight itself.

How is that fair?

Some people moaned about Manny winning a junior middleweight title at a catchweight of 150lbs, but that weigh in was the day before the fight.

Margarito actually weighed in at 165 lbs at the time of the fight.

You can't have it both ways. Under the current system biggers guys have an unfair advantage of being able to boil down to fight in a division many pounds lighter than the weight they walk around at.

Allow Manny's opponents to weigh in at the maximum weight limit. But make sure they enter the ring at that weight.

That's surely fair. Under those circumstances Manny's advantage would be even greater.

Because of this disparity catchweights are a necessary evil. All they do is level the playing field that is already biased in favour of the naturally bigger fighter.

I am in the minority that believes same day weigh-ins should be the norm. But the logic of having an unfair advantage by using the normal rules of a weight class is ridiculous. That would be like Qatar's soccer team play against England's but England wouldn't be allowed to have a goalie or any player to enter their own penalty box. Wait, bad example, but still you get the point. Margarito coming in heavier isn't anything out of the norm for the division, noone is forcing Pacquiao to move up in weight, if he chooses to fight there, he should fight in the terms of the division if it's too much of a disadvantage then fight in a lower weight class, that's what we have weight classes for.

I don't see how Manny has an 'unfair' advantage though? The unfairness arises out of the 24 hour window that allows fighters to fight in weight class in which they are too big.

If fighters were not allowed to enter the ring above the weight limit then it would be a whole different ball game and much better for the sport. As it stands, every bigger man has an unfair advantage every time they enter the ring thanks to not having to actually weigh on fight night what they are supposed to according to the weight limit.

I just can't see how people can't see both sides of the coin here?

If a fighter can enter the ring 10 or even 15 lbs more than the weight limit how is that fair?

By asking for a catchweight all Manny is doing is ensuring that a fighter cannot rehydrate to such a high level, thus negating the advantage they would otherwise be able to accumalate.

If having to weight 2 lbs less than the max weight limit for the fight 24 hours before is too much of a strain for the bigger man, then clearly they are fighting in a weight class that is too small for them.

When a smaller guy is moving up, a catchweight is actually a fair fight.

In the case of Miguel Cotto for example, he weighed over the 147 lb weight limit by the time he stepped in the ring with Manny. So imo it was a full welterweight fight.

Catchweights wouldn't need to exist if the sport was more fair in the first place.

At the end of the day boxing is all about private contracts, and fighters are going to do what they want, the commissions are willing to go along with whatever is set forth as long as they profit. HOWEVER, you can look at the rules of any commission and the rules for weighing in are currently the day before the weigh in.

WBC - section 4.6 <-- Sanctioning body for Margarito/Pacquiao
http://www.wbcboxing.com/downloads/N...FINAL_2009.pdf
"Boxers shall have the final weigh-in no less than 24 hours but not more than 30 hours before the bout"

WBA - page 21 section E.5
World Boxing Association Official Site Click on Regulations tab, then click rules
"carried out between 16 and 30 hours before the bout"

WBO - section 4
REGULATIONS
The WBO does not mandate a weigh in time at all, but does have two pages on purse bids

IBF - section 1.A
http://www.ibf-usba-boxing.com/userf...amendments.pdf
The IBF has two weigh ins, the official one that's the day before (official weight) and one the morning of the fight to make sure fighters haven't gained more than 10 lbs. over the weight limit.

You also have to keep in mind that commissions, managers and even most fighters themselves are going to want prior day weigh ins, because it's a marketing tool, it gets people out, photo ops, pre fight trash talk in public view, you wouldn't get the full effect at 5-6 in the morning day of the fight.

And again you bring up fairness, but if someone is moving into a new weightclass they should abide by the current rules of that weight class or they have no business there. It's not as if Manny isn't going to make a ton of cash regardless of who he fights.

Perhaps it would help your argument if you could show some examples within the last 20 years of some fights that have used same day weigh-ins. Otherwise we are certainly talking about a social norm under the accepted current rules of the commissions.

It's an accepted social norm now, because like you say the television and media demands it. It's also been in operation for so long that we have all accepted it. That doesn't mean that it no longer confers on the bigger man a very real, and non skill related advantage.

It is the flip side to the catchweight argument. People will cry foul that a man is asked to weigh only 150 lbs the day before fighting for a 154 lb title, but think nothing of the advantage gained through him weighing 165 lbs during the actual fight itself.

They will then argue, how can you win a 154 lb belt fighting at 150 lbs? But the fight wasn't at 150lbs it was 148lbs vs 165 lbs.

It depends what your ultimate goal in boxing is. For the best fighters to fight the best fighters, even when they operate in different natural weight classes, or would you rather see these fighters remain pure to the their chosen divisions even if it means not fighting each other.

Personally I am massively in favour of the former approach. I couldn't care less about the weight of a fighter in all honesty, providing they are healthy to fight.

The belts have been so devalued in the sport of the boxing due to corruption and appalling paid for rankings as to be rendered virtually meaningless. The fighters are the stars of boxing, and why we watch, not the WBC, WBA, IBF belts etc.

Once a fighter has proven himself we know his worth to the sport, we don't a belt to tell us that, or a specific weight class. Some may like the fact that Marvin Hagler only ever fought as a middleweight had there been any stars at 175 lbs that would have made for interesting fights I would have loved to see him move up to a catchweight to challenge them. I don't need for a fight to be in a specific weight class for me to know it's a significant fight. The issue of weight draining is different. I don't want to see a fight kill himself to make weight. But this isn't a problem related to catchweight fights any more than regular weight classes. The only fighter who looked weight drained against Manny was Oscar, and that wasn't a catchweight fight. Ironically, had it been a catchweight fight, at say 150 lbs like when Oscar fought Steve Forbes, it would have been more competitive not less.

I just cannot see the problem. Watching Manny rise up through multiple weight classes over the past 3 years has been absolutely sensational. He has torn through some of the biggest names in three divisions, and having come all the way from flyweight to that.

Over the course of that he's had two catchweight fights, his first proper fight at welter against a genuine welter in Cotto, and his first fight at light middle, against a big tall man in Margarito.

Given the choice of these catchweight agreements being in place, or the fights not taking place at all I wholeheartedly support the catchweights.

Also, why is it only Manny who gets criticism for it.

Why did no one rain on Marquez when he got Floyd to agree to a catchweight of 145? Nobody mentioned it, because although he is the same size as Manny, and came from the same superfeatherweight divison as Manny he is not held to the same standard of perfection as Manny.

Also Floyd chose to ignore it and pay a fine instead, which I guess both Cotto and Margarito were free to do. They didn't however, as they chose to keep the honour of the sport and stick the agreement, unlike Floyd who just ignored his agreement.

[Kev]

Oh and as for abiding by the current rules of a weight class what rules has Manny broken.

As I understand it the rules for fighting for the welterweight title are 'You cannot exceed the maximum weight limit of 147 lbs'.

Where does it say 'You cannot weigh in at 145lbs?'

[GAME]

Then why have weight classes at all? I believe there should be no catchweights allowed in pro boxing at all, you are following the rules of a weightclass or you aren't. If you are going to move up to fight bigger men, then that's exactly what you should be doing fighting bigger men, not fighting with an asterisk. Of course, noone's going to take a stand when a 6-7 figure payday is on the line.

Well actually I would agree. But the bigger men are already the beneficiaries of an unfair advantage having a full 24 hours from the time of the weigh in to the fight itself.

How is that fair?

Some people moaned about Manny winning a junior middleweight title at a catchweight of 150lbs, but that weigh in was the day before the fight.

Margarito actually weighed in at 165 lbs at the time of the fight.

You can't have it both ways. Under the current system biggers guys have an unfair advantage of being able to boil down to fight in a division many pounds lighter than the weight they walk around at.

Allow Manny's opponents to weigh in at the maximum weight limit. But make sure they enter the ring at that weight.

That's surely fair. Under those circumstances Manny's advantage would be even greater.

Because of this disparity catchweights are a necessary evil. All they do is level the playing field that is already biased in favour of the naturally bigger fighter.

I am in the minority that believes same day weigh-ins should be the norm. But the logic of having an unfair advantage by using the normal rules of a weight class is ridiculous. That would be like Qatar's soccer team play against England's but England wouldn't be allowed to have a goalie or any player to enter their own penalty box. Wait, bad example, but still you get the point. Margarito coming in heavier isn't anything out of the norm for the division, noone is forcing Pacquiao to move up in weight, if he chooses to fight there, he should fight in the terms of the division if it's too much of a disadvantage then fight in a lower weight class, that's what we have weight classes for.

I don't see how Manny has an 'unfair' advantage though? The unfairness arises out of the 24 hour window that allows fighters to fight in weight class in which they are too big.

If fighters were not allowed to enter the ring above the weight limit then it would be a whole different ball game and much better for the sport. As it stands, every bigger man has an unfair advantage every time they enter the ring thanks to not having to actually weigh on fight night what they are supposed to according to the weight limit.

I just can't see how people can't see both sides of the coin here?

If a fighter can enter the ring 10 or even 15 lbs more than the weight limit how is that fair?

By asking for a catchweight all Manny is doing is ensuring that a fighter cannot rehydrate to such a high level, thus negating the advantage they would otherwise be able to accumalate.

If having to weight 2 lbs less than the max weight limit for the fight 24 hours before is too much of a strain for the bigger man, then clearly they are fighting in a weight class that is too small for them.

When a smaller guy is moving up, a catchweight is actually a fair fight.

In the case of Miguel Cotto for example, he weighed over the 147 lb weight limit by the time he stepped in the ring with Manny. So imo it was a full welterweight fight.

Catchweights wouldn't need to exist if the sport was more fair in the first place.

At the end of the day boxing is all about private contracts, and fighters are going to do what they want, the commissions are willing to go along with whatever is set forth as long as they profit. HOWEVER, you can look at the rules of any commission and the rules for weighing in are currently the day before the weigh in.

WBC - section 4.6 <-- Sanctioning body for Margarito/Pacquiao
http://www.wbcboxing.com/downloads/N...FINAL_2009.pdf
"Boxers shall have the final weigh-in no less than 24 hours but not more than 30 hours before the bout"

WBA - page 21 section E.5
World Boxing Association Official Site Click on Regulations tab, then click rules
"carried out between 16 and 30 hours before the bout"

WBO - section 4
REGULATIONS
The WBO does not mandate a weigh in time at all, but does have two pages on purse bids

IBF - section 1.A
http://www.ibf-usba-boxing.com/userf...amendments.pdf
The IBF has two weigh ins, the official one that's the day before (official weight) and one the morning of the fight to make sure fighters haven't gained more than 10 lbs. over the weight limit.

You also have to keep in mind that commissions, managers and even most fighters themselves are going to want prior day weigh ins, because it's a marketing tool, it gets people out, photo ops, pre fight trash talk in public view, you wouldn't get the full effect at 5-6 in the morning day of the fight.

And again you bring up fairness, but if someone is moving into a new weightclass they should abide by the current rules of that weight class or they have no business there. It's not as if Manny isn't going to make a ton of cash regardless of who he fights.

Perhaps it would help your argument if you could show some examples within the last 20 years of some fights that have used same day weigh-ins. Otherwise we are certainly talking about a social norm under the accepted current rules of the commissions.

It's an accepted social norm now, because like you say the television and media demands it. It's also been in operation for so long that we have all accepted it. That doesn't mean that it no longer confers on the bigger man a very real, and non skill related advantage.

It is the flip side to the catchweight argument. People will cry foul that a man is asked to weigh only 150 lbs the day before fighting for a 154 lb title, but think nothing of the advantage gained through him weighing 165 lbs during the actual fight itself.

They will then argue, how can you win a 154 lb belt fighting at 150 lbs? But the fight wasn't at 150lbs it was 148lbs vs 165 lbs.

It depends what your ultimate goal in boxing is. For the best fighters to fight the best fighters, even when they operate in different natural weight classes, or would you rather see these fighters remain pure to the their chosen divisions even if it means not fighting each other.

Personally I am massively in favour of the former approach. I couldn't care less about the weight of a fighter in all honesty, providing they are healthy to fight.

The belts have been so devalued in the sport of the boxing due to corruption and appalling paid for rankings as to be rendered virtually meaningless. The fighters are the stars of boxing, and why we watch, not the WBC, WBA, IBF belts etc.

Once a fighter has proven himself we know his worth to the sport, we don't a belt to tell us that, or a specific weight class. Some may like the fact that Marvin Hagler only ever fought as a middleweight had there been any stars at 175 lbs that would have made for interesting fights I would have loved to see him move up to a catchweight to challenge them. I don't need for a fight to be in a specific weight class for me to know it's a significant fight. The issue of weight draining is different. I don't want to see a fight kill himself to make weight. But this isn't a problem related to catchweight fights any more than regular weight classes. The only fighter who looked weight drained against Manny was Oscar, and that wasn't a catchweight fight. Ironically, had it been a catchweight fight, at say 150 lbs like when Oscar fought Steve Forbes, it would have been more competitive not less.

I just cannot see the problem. Watching Manny rise up through multiple weight classes over the past 3 years has been absolutely sensational. He has torn through some of the biggest names in three divisions, and having come all the way from flyweight to that.

Over the course of that he's had two catchweight fights, his first proper fight at welter against a genuine welter in Cotto, and his first fight at light middle, against a big tall man in Margarito.

Given the choice of these catchweight agreements being in place, or the fights not taking place at all I wholeheartedly support the catchweights.

Also, why is it only Manny who gets criticism for it.

Why did no one rain on Marquez when he got Floyd to agree to a catchweight of 145? Nobody mentioned it, because although he is the same size as Manny, and came from the same superfeatherweight divison as Manny he is not held to the same standard of perfection as Manny.

Also Floyd chose to ignore it and pay a fine instead, which I guess both Cotto and Margarito were free to do. They didn't however, as they chose to keep the honour of the sport and stick the agreement, unlike Floyd who just ignored his agreement.

So Manny can say he won world world titles in different divisions instead of saying he beat up on washed up weight drained leftovers.

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

The fairest system is to completely ban Catch weights... And then get rid of the completely TOXIC 24-hour prior weight-ins, resorting back to same day weigh-ins but then enforce and regulate rules regarding any competitors weight at various critical stages of from the lead-up, right up until the fight (starting at the date of signing or even negotiation).

That way, you wont get a bunch of Middleweights fighting at Welterweigt, some of which are straining to make lightwelterweight to fight a Welterweight