p4p, legacy, and resume which one takes it? PBF,Pac, RJJ

[Taeth]

Pacquiao's career in every aspect has eclipsed both of the other two's despite the fact I think mayweather is better. RJJ is one of my two favorites all time, but I don't see his career as great as these two, nor do I see him beating either one p4p. He was more talented than either, but they are nearly his equal in that regard, but they have far more determination and a much better work ethic.

If they were in the same weight class, I don't think either could win much over a few rounds against Roy Jones.

Roy Jones is the most talented fighter who ever lived. And one of the fastest.

Pacquaio has begun to dominate larger opponents these last few years like Roy used to, so I can see some comparison to Roy.

But how anyone can think Floyd is better than Roy Jones I do not know...

I mean he had a close fight with an aging Oscar Delahoya, and he lost the first Castillo fight.

He beat Oscar(at the same age Floyd is now) convincingly, and Oscar did things in that fight that would have given Roy Jones Jr a very hard time. I mean Oscar comparatively has about the same size advantage Ruiz had over Jones in comparison to Floyd. He was roughly 20 pounds heavier and 2 and a half inches taller with each pound being a lot more important at smaller weights.

Also Roy's speed doesn't mean as much when he's breaking so many rules against a guy who is a minute amount slower. Floyd has a way better jab, he's naturally taller for his weight class, he has significantly better defensive skills, and he's a more well rounded fighter. I know how the fights turned out but ROy had some difficulties against Maccallum and Virgil Hill's jabs early, or Hopkins' in their first fight because they all moved in behind the jab, and Floyd is significantly faster than any of them.

Pacquiao and Roy Jones were able to dominate guys for similar reasons. They had a special blend of power and skill, while Pacquiao uses hardwork and output, Roy had a more skills and was more elusive, but they really look good against guys who can't keep up with them. Roy was intelligent and stayed one step ahead of his opponent, while Pacuqiao is always doing something and forcing his opponent to think, but Floyd doesn't to that, he lures his opponents into mistakes and then he strikes. It's the same reason why Hopkins never looked as impressive as Roy Jones because his style was more defensive, the two reasons I don't think Hopkins would beat a prime RJJ, however I believe are the reasons Floyd would. Hopkins would lose a frustrating fight like the second bout they had, but Roy would just be a little too quick and catch him with glancing punches and rack up points with semi-meaningless flurries sort of like Calzaghe(who I thought lost), but more convincingly. Floyd has the speed and jab, which are the two things He would use to frustrate Roy that Hopkins doesn't have, FLoyd would jab to the body or start landing to the head, and he's one of the few p4p who could land a jab upstairs on Roy, but he's so smooth and quick that even Roy couldn't react effectively to his jab. FLoyd would use that jab and speed to get inside where even though Roy was pretty, he wasn't as good as Floyd on the inside, and Floyd would do some damage. Eventually Roy who never trained as hard as Floyd would wear out and the fight would become increasingly one sided in Floyd's favor. Besides speed, and power in some ways Floyd just has too many advantages in every other aspect of boxing. Even Roy's power is based on speed and unpredictability to a large extent and Floyd would see everything coming at him.

[BIG H]

We could throw 'Sweet P' into this debate aswell

[generalbulldog]

When Roy got KTFO by Tarver in the rematch and by Johnson he was 35 and when he lost to Calzaghe he was 39, not exactly what I call prime. About James Toney losing massive weight, he just defended his IBF SMW title against Charles Williams 3 1/2 months before fighting Roy so I fail to see where Toney had to lose massive weight, unless his walk around weight back then was in the 200+ range like it is today.

Pac and PBF's overall resume is better than Roy as I have said in my first post, but Roy's 2 big wins against prime and undefeated James Toney and Hopkins is better than Pac's and PBF's 2 biggest wins against anyone. Toney and Hopkins weren't old, past their prime, shot, on the decline or at a catchweight or out of their comfortable weight range, which PBF and Pac has a habit of doing. He outclass and beat them fairly easily. Roy in his prime also doesn't have controversial wins where it's debated that he lost like Pac against JMM or PBF against Castillo in the 1st fight. So yeah, I'm going by that Roy was even more dominant than those 2 when he was the p4p king.

[JazMerkin]

When Roy got KTFO by Tarver in the rematch and by Johnson he was 35 and when he lost to Calzaghe he was 39, not exactly what I call prime. About James Toney losing massive weight, he just defended his IBF SMW title against Charles Williams 3 1/2 months before fighting Roy so I fail to see where Toney had to lose massive weight, unless his walk around weight back then was in the 200+ range like it is today.

Pac and PBF's overall resume is better than Roy as I have said in my first post, but Roy's 2 big wins against prime and undefeated James Toney and Hopkins is better than Pac's and PBF's 2 biggest wins against anyone. Toney and Hopkins weren't old, past their prime, shot, on the decline or at a catchweight or out of their comfortable weight range, which PBF and Pac has a habit of doing. He outclass and beat them fairly easily. Roy in his prime also doesn't have controversial wins where it's debated that he lost like Pac against JMM or PBF against Castillo in the 1st fight. So yeah, I'm going by that Roy was even more dominant than those 2 when he was the p4p king.

Toney has long claimed that he was weight-drained for the Jones fight. Whether he was or not is immaterial, but it has the same value as RJJ's claims that he was drained for the Tarver & Road Warrior fights. Aside from that, I credit his win over Hopkins more because regardless of Hopkins being prime, I think he's a greater fighter. I don't credit a James Toney who struggled to beat a 35 year old Mike McCallum (lost imo), Reggie Johnson & Dave Tiberi (& he most certainly lost that one) as being any better than Oscar, Barrera, Mosley, Marquez or Morales. Pacquiao's first win against Barrera definitely trumps it imo.

I'll give you that RJJ doesn't have that controversial loss, but in all honesty he didn't fight opponents to give him that much of a challenge, Toney aside, but was that (at the time) any better than PBF's win over Corrales or Manny's over Cotto. Was it any less a 50/50 matchup than those.

As I've said, I think Roy is almost certainly the greatest athlete in the history of the sport, but the best find a way to look great when they are not at their peak, such as Pac-MAB 1 or PBF taking Mosley's biggest punch and coming back at him. Roy doesn't have that moment for me. When faced with adversity, he didn't have what they had, which along with my reasons above is why I rate him below.

Anyway that aside, Roy is still a great, I think the problem is when it comes to 'discrediting' wins because someone was old/shot/outweighed/weight-drained. I think it's easy to make excuses but they still have to get in there and win the fight. Of all those fights, the only one where I would possibly give some part to that excuse is Pac-Oscar where ODLH clearly looked in no fit shape to be in the ring, but still Manny had a gameplan to beat him and there's no reason that he wouldn't have had some success against a younger, stronger version. All these guys are for my money better at their peak than any of those they beat (RJJ & B-Hop is debatable, although I'd side with Roy), so there's no reason they couldn't have done it.


* Oh and no way did RJJ make Hopkins look like a bum, c'mon you're better than that kind of reckless hyperbole GB

[Ant Live]

It's RJJ for me. His speed and power was unmatched.
Floyd got speed. But little power.
Manny just started becoming this freak of nature.

RJJ was so good, he makes his resume looks like corner boys. All the while, he was just mountains of talent above anyone he fought. But he's the one fighter that you can put in any era and he would probably defeat most if not all fighters around his weight division in their primes.

Can't really say that about PBF and PAC. I can't say for sure that either of them can easily defeat, if defeat . . .
SRL, Hearns, Pryor, Sweatpea, Alexis A, Meldrick Taylor, Hagler, Willie Pep and even a prime DLH and prime Tito

[greynotsoold]

Honestly, I can't see RJJ beating Hagler, Monzon, Ray Robinson, Archie Moore, Billy Conn, Bob Foster, Jake LaMotta...Beating Tony Thornton, Clinton Woods, Jorge Vaca, even a big, dumb slow guy like John Ruiz doesn't make you a superman. Its easy to look all-everything against guys that can't fight to begin with and then come into the ring trying not to lose too bad instead of trying to win. Against guys like those mentioned above he'd be fighting boxers that were skilled, used to controlling tough opponents, and they would definitely try to win.
The key to beating Jones was to punch when he was punching, which good fighters would do, and, bottom line, I believe Jones always had a weak chin and that he lacked the heart, should he find himself in a tough fight.

[Ant Live]

Honestly, I can't see RJJ beating Hagler, Monzon, Ray Robinson, Archie Moore, Billy Conn, Bob Foster, Jake LaMotta...Beating Tony Thornton, Clinton Woods, Jorge Vaca, even a big, dumb slow guy like John Ruiz doesn't make you a superman. Its easy to look all-everything against guys that can't fight to begin with and then come into the ring trying not to lose too bad instead of trying to win. Against guys like those mentioned above he'd be fighting boxers that were skilled, used to controlling tough opponents, and they would definitely try to win.
The key to beating Jones was to punch when he was punching, which good fighters would do, and, bottom line, I believe Jones always had a weak chin and that he lacked the heart, should he find himself in a tough fight.

Maybe u right about his weak chin. He did go down once early in his career. But he showed heart and stop that guy(I think). He showed true heart and grit against Tarver in their first showdown. That's when he should have retired.
Anyway, Jones offense was his defense. No one could touch his chin. None of the 3 could throw combos like RJJ.

[IamInuit]

Honestly, I can't see RJJ beating Hagler, Monzon, Ray Robinson, Archie Moore, Billy Conn, Bob Foster, Jake LaMotta...Beating Tony Thornton, Clinton Woods, Jorge Vaca, even a big, dumb slow guy like John Ruiz doesn't make you a superman. Its easy to look all-everything against guys that can't fight to begin with and then come into the ring trying not to lose too bad instead of trying to win. Against guys like those mentioned above he'd be fighting boxers that were skilled, used to controlling tough opponents, and they would definitely try to win.
The key to beating Jones was to punch when he was punching, which good fighters would do, and, bottom line, I believe Jones always had a weak chin and that he lacked the heart, should he find himself in a tough fight.

Jones was a freak of nature. He had what I call third eye syndrome kind of like Barry Sanders or Wayne Gretzky. They know what you are going to do before you do. The key that you have described to beat Roy has a fundamental problem that is two fold. One, the opponent had no idea when Jones was going to punch and where it was coming from. Secondly, even if you could sense the “when”, he would have already landed.

Odd that you would mention the likes of Thorton, Woods and Vaca but leave out Hopkins, Toney, Hill and Griffin or his shut out of McCallum. He not only beat them but made it look pedestrian. Perhaps you’re right in that he always had a shaky chin but the problem is nobody was able to check it.

Theirs only two people on your list of guys to beat Roy that may have a shot and that’s Robinson and Hagler at 160 however I think he exploits Haglers plodding style better then Leonard did. Outside shot on Calzaghe at 168 but I see no other in the history of that division and most likely Ezzard Charles at 175.

[rjj tszyu]

Honestly, I can't see RJJ beating Hagler, Monzon, Ray Robinson, Archie Moore, Billy Conn, Bob Foster, Jake LaMotta...Beating Tony Thornton, Clinton Woods, Jorge Vaca, even a big, dumb slow guy like John Ruiz doesn't make you a superman. Its easy to look all-everything against guys that can't fight to begin with and then come into the ring trying not to lose too bad instead of trying to win. Against guys like those mentioned above he'd be fighting boxers that were skilled, used to controlling tough opponents, and they would definitely try to win.
The key to beating Jones was to punch when he was punching, which good fighters would do, and, bottom line, I believe Jones always had a weak chin and that he lacked the heart, should he find himself in a tough fight.

What about beating guys like James Toney, Bernard Hopkins, Virgil Hill and Mike McCallum?? All these were GREAT fighters and future hall of famers. You cannot knock a guy for being simply miles ahead of his competition! You cannot say he always had a weak chin either because we'll never know. He was that good that no one in his prime could touch his chin. That is the art of boxing, to hit and not be hit and Jones mastered that art!

[generalbulldog]

When Roy got KTFO by Tarver in the rematch and by Johnson he was 35 and when he lost to Calzaghe he was 39, not exactly what I call prime. About James Toney losing massive weight, he just defended his IBF SMW title against Charles Williams 3 1/2 months before fighting Roy so I fail to see where Toney had to lose massive weight, unless his walk around weight back then was in the 200+ range like it is today.

Pac and PBF's overall resume is better than Roy as I have said in my first post, but Roy's 2 big wins against prime and undefeated James Toney and Hopkins is better than Pac's and PBF's 2 biggest wins against anyone. Toney and Hopkins weren't old, past their prime, shot, on the decline or at a catchweight or out of their comfortable weight range, which PBF and Pac has a habit of doing. He outclass and beat them fairly easily. Roy in his prime also doesn't have controversial wins where it's debated that he lost like Pac against JMM or PBF against Castillo in the 1st fight. So yeah, I'm going by that Roy was even more dominant than those 2 when he was the p4p king.

Toney has long claimed that he was weight-drained for the Jones fight. Whether he was or not is immaterial, but it has the same value as RJJ's claims that he was drained for the Tarver & Road Warrior fights. Aside from that, I credit his win over Hopkins more because regardless of Hopkins being prime, I think he's a greater fighter. I don't credit a James Toney who struggled to beat a 35 year old Mike McCallum (lost imo), Reggie Johnson & Dave Tiberi (& he most certainly lost that one) as being any better than Oscar, Barrera, Mosley, Marquez or Morales. Pacquiao's first win against Barrera definitely trumps it imo.

I'll give you that RJJ doesn't have that controversial loss, but in all honesty he didn't fight opponents to give him that much of a challenge, Toney aside, but was that (at the time) any better than PBF's win over Corrales or Manny's over Cotto. Was it any less a 50/50 matchup than those.

As I've said, I think Roy is almost certainly the greatest athlete in the history of the sport, but the best find a way to look great when they are not at their peak, such as Pac-MAB 1 or PBF taking Mosley's biggest punch and coming back at him. Roy doesn't have that moment for me. When faced with adversity, he didn't have what they had, which along with my reasons above is why I rate him below.

Anyway that aside, Roy is still a great, I think the problem is when it comes to 'discrediting' wins because someone was old/shot/outweighed/weight-drained. I think it's easy to make excuses but they still have to get in there and win the fight. Of all those fights, the only one where I would possibly give some part to that excuse is Pac-Oscar where ODLH clearly looked in no fit shape to be in the ring, but still Manny had a gameplan to beat him and there's no reason that he wouldn't have had some success against a younger, stronger version. All these guys are for my money better at their peak than any of those they beat (RJJ & B-Hop is debatable, although I'd side with Roy), so there's no reason they couldn't have done it.


* Oh and no way did RJJ make Hopkins look like a bum, c'mon you're better than that kind of reckless hyperbole GB

I don't know whether or not Toney was weight drain against RJJ or not, he just got outclassed and dominated in almost every round due to Jones style and athleticism. Since he was the bigger star than RJJ then, maybe he should have argued for the fight to be taken place at a few pounds north of 168? I just fail to see it as a sign of weight drain since he did just finish defending his IBF title against Williams in a good competitive fight 3.5 months before facing Roy.

Of course RJJ didn't make Hopkins look like a bum but he did decisively beat Hopkins in that fight so long ago and that till this day no man inside that ring can claim. Even Hopkins admitted it himself that he thought he clearly lost.

The reason why I believe that RJJ's win over Hopkins and Toney are so much better than Pac's and PBF's 2 biggest wins is the status of the opponent and what they would do later in their careers. For instance some posters here like Miron Lang claims that Pac's win over MAB in '03 and JMM in '08 is better, but if one takes a look at it clearly, Toney and Hopkins with those defeats at the hands of Roy would later go on and do things that are extraordinary in the sport. Besides I feel that Hopkins is Jones greatest win because of what Hopkins would do later on in his legendary career and add to that he is clearly the better fighter in boxing history and is more accomplished than MAB in the sport, which would be Pac's biggest win. Corrales is usually cited as Floyd's biggest win but Hopkins is the better fighter more accomplished in the sport's history and is clearly an atg, Corrales is a hall of famer but not an atg and skill level isn't up there with Hopkins.

Look Floyd and Pac are great, I just feel that Roy is greater in that he was more dominant being p4p no. 1 and I felt that his 2 biggest wins were better than their 2 biggest wins. The only thing I would give those 2 is overall resume was better than Jones. If Jones had fought Benn, Eubank, McClellan, dariusz michalczewski, and Calzaghe earlier then his resume would be much better overall, but for various reasons it didn't happen, oh well.

[JazMerkin]

I don't know whether or not Toney was weight drain against RJJ or not, he just got outclassed and dominated in almost every round due to Jones style and athleticism. Since he was the bigger star than RJJ then, maybe he should have argued for the fight to be taken place at a few pounds north of 168? I just fail to see it as a sign of weight drain since he did just finish defending his IBF title against Williams in a good competitive fight 3.5 months before facing Roy.

Of course RJJ didn't make Hopkins look like a bum but he did decisively beat Hopkins in that fight so long ago and that till this day no man inside that ring can claim. Even Hopkins admitted it himself that he thought he clearly lost.

The reason why I believe that RJJ's win over Hopkins and Toney are so much better than Pac's and PBF's 2 biggest wins is the status of the opponent and what they would do later in their careers. For instance some posters here like Miron Lang claims that Pac's win over MAB in '03 and JMM in '08 is better, but if one takes a look at it clearly, Toney and Hopkins with those defeats at the hands of Roy would later go on and do things that are extraordinary in the sport. Besides I feel that Hopkins is Jones greatest win because of what Hopkins would do later on in his legendary career and add to that he is clearly the better fighter in boxing history and is more accomplished than MAB in the sport, which would be Pac's biggest win. Corrales is usually cited as Floyd's biggest win but Hopkins is the better fighter more accomplished in the sport's history and is clearly an atg, Corrales is a hall of famer but not an atg and skill level isn't up there with Hopkins.

Look Floyd and Pac are great, I just feel that Roy is greater in that he was more dominant being p4p no. 1 and I felt that his 2 biggest wins were better than their 2 biggest wins. The only thing I would give those 2 is overall resume was better than Jones. If Jones had fought Benn, Eubank, McClellan, dariusz michalczewski, and Calzaghe earlier then his resume would be much better overall, but for various reasons it didn't happen, oh well.

Hey, there's no problems with different opinions bro. We all have 'em.

I personally see Jones a few rungs below PBF or Pac, who I think are about even. The only issue I really have is that of prime. For me, Mayweather hasn't been prime since about 2005/6. I think inactivity & bad hands mean he's no longer at his peak, although there could be an argument that the time off after the Hatton fight has rejuvenated him.

Let me just be clear, I don't think Toney lost because of weight or anything, my point is you can justify every lost if you want to. The simple fact is that in 99% of cases, the better man wins on the night because he is better. I don't diminish any of Roy's wins because of it, but I don't also overlook his defeats.

I disagree on him being the most dominant no.1, I think he had a lot of comp from ODLH, B-Hop, Mosley & PBF at various points while he was p4p. I think Floyd had less from 2004-2008. Pac has never been the indisputable #1 in most eyes, as there are always those who've said Marquez/Mayweather/Martinez should be above him.

I agree Hopkins was a clear win & better than that of Corrales in hindsight, but it was not dominant was my point. Corrales was made to look like a bum, but as he showed he still had plenty left afterwards. Barrera also had decent wins after the Pac fight, while JMM has solidified ATG status since the 2nd fight.

Anyway like I say, different opinions is all it is, it would be boring if they were all the same. I also suppose that it's very difficult to really assess this properly till they've all fully retired, and we're able to look at them all more dispassionately.

[Julius Rain]

Roy was fun to watch but his wins are not as great. I think his biggest win is over James Toney at super middle weight. He fun a lot of undefeated guys but those guys were not A class fighters. I think Roy fought a lot of B class fighters. The Ruiz fight was a joke imo, and then he has a close fight with a 20-0 something Tarver. I dont even compare Roy to Floyd or Pac.

At the moment I say Pac but we should definitely see Pac vs Floyd.

Anybody saying pac reach his prime before lightweight is definitely just sticking up to the great fighters he beat up below lightweight. These are the same people who called him one dimensional but yet they are saying he was already prime?

Pac reach his prime above featherweight and p4p a welterweight Pac beats up Floyd and Roy.

[generalbulldog]

For the people that are criticizing on Roy's resume compared to Pac and PBF, you guys are right that it's overall better than Roy's but to me I go for quality over quantity. Pac and PBF 2 biggest wins don't equal Roy's 2 biggest wins. Roy made 2 atgs looked like bums which were Toney and Hopkins. Name me the 2 biggest wins on Pac and PBF's resume that are close to a prime and undefeated Toney and young Hopkins? You can't. Those 2 were atgs and one was definitely in his prime, while Hopkins wasn't in his prime niether was Roy at that stage. Remember Roy is the only guy to beat Hopkins convincingly in his career.

[greynotsoold]

RJJ won the Hopkins fight but to say he made him look like a bum is far from accurate. In fact, that fight was really disappointing on both sides. Not very impressive at all. They were fighting for a world title, then, but in 1949 (or 1939) that would have been a 6 or 8 round undercard fight.