Saturday's puerto rican vote

[marbleheadmaui]

Wao, this was a great Carlos Ortiz background summary. I agree with you that his name has been forgoten when we talk about great puertorrican and even great all time champions. I guess that the result was just vote of new generations that never saw Ortiz. But, as you mentioned this is a great list for such a small country and we are proud of all of them and the ones that are raising.

Hell and they didn't even inlcude Camacho as an option. It just kills me that a guy like Ortiz, who fought top guy after top guy and was the finest of a great era of lightweights somehow recedes into the fog. What a fighter!

[ElTerribleMorales]

i agree, out of the 5 i have them

1. Benitez
2. Gomez
3. Trinidad (Ortiz easily could be here)
4. Ortiz (could easily switch with Trinidad)
5. Cotto

i rank Trinidad higher due to the names he beat and apart from his fight with DLH he did so convincingly (seeing how i had DLH winning), as for Camacho well i rank all 5 higher than Macho

[marbleheadmaui]

i agree, out of the 5 i have them

1. Benitez
2. Gomez
3. Trinidad (Ortiz easily could be here)
4. Ortiz (could easily switch with Trinidad)
5. Cotto

i rank Trinidad higher due to the names he beat and apart from his fight with DLH he did so convincingly (seeing how i had DLH winning), as for Camacho well i rank all 5 higher than Macho

Respectfully who did either Tito or El Radar or Bazooka beat who were as good as Ismael Laguna or Duilio Loi or Flash Elorde or Sugar Ramos?

BTW, I LOVE Benitez. Roger Kimball was wrong. There were FIVE kings in the 1980's.

[ElTerribleMorales]

i agree, out of the 5 i have them

1. Benitez
2. Gomez
3. Trinidad (Ortiz easily could be here)
4. Ortiz (could easily switch with Trinidad)
5. Cotto

i rank Trinidad higher due to the names he beat and apart from his fight with DLH he did so convincingly (seeing how i had DLH winning), as for Camacho well i rank all 5 higher than Macho

Respectfully who did either Tito or El Radar or Bazooka beat who were as good as Ismael Laguna or Duilio Loi or Flash Elorde or Sugar Ramos?

BTW, I LOVE Benitez. Roger Kimball was wrong. There were FIVE kings in the 1980's.

Benitez was beating up grown men at the age of 14, became a world champion beating Cervantes at 17, also he holds a clear win over Duran who by many is considered the greatest lightweight of all time, he's also a 3 weight champion, without a doubt the best technical and defensive fighter to come from the island

Gomez finished his career with the record of 44 Wins only 3 losses and 42 Wins coming by KO, he had wins over the likes of Lockridge, La Porte, Pintor, Kobayashi, and Zarate just to name a few, he lost to Salvador Sanchez and Azumah Nelson by his final loss he was already battling his addiction to cocaine

Trinidad had wins against Vargas, Whitaker, DLH (although controversial), Campas, Joppy, and again a 3 weight champion, he's still today holds the record for most successful title defenses at welterweight

so i'd say that all 3 can make their case for being just as good if not better than Ortiz, who himself is an ATG

[marbleheadmaui]

i agree, out of the 5 i have them

1. Benitez
2. Gomez
3. Trinidad (Ortiz easily could be here)
4. Ortiz (could easily switch with Trinidad)
5. Cotto

i rank Trinidad higher due to the names he beat and apart from his fight with DLH he did so convincingly (seeing how i had DLH winning), as for Camacho well i rank all 5 higher than Macho

Respectfully who did either Tito or El Radar or Bazooka beat who were as good as Ismael Laguna or Duilio Loi or Flash Elorde or Sugar Ramos?

BTW, I LOVE Benitez. Roger Kimball was wrong. There were FIVE kings in the 1980's.

Benitez was beating up grown men at the age of 14, became a world champion beating Cervantes at 17, also he holds a clear win over Duran who by many is considered the greatest lightweight of all time, he's also a 3 weight champion, without a doubt the best technical and defensive fighter to come from the island

Gomez finished his career with the record of 44 Wins only 3 losses and 42 Wins coming by KO, he had wins over the likes of Lockridge, La Porte, Pintor, Kobayashi, and Zarate just to name a few, he lost to Salvador Sanchez and Azumah Nelson by his final loss he was already battling his addiction to cocaine

Trinidad had wins against Vargas, Whitaker, DLH (although controversial), Campas, Joppy, and again a 3 weight champion, he's still today holds the record for most successful title defenses at welterweight

so i'd say that all 3 can make their case for being just as good if not better than Ortiz, who himself is an ATG

c
Believe me I am taking NOTHING away from these other men. But Tito just doesn't stack up. The win over Sweet Pea was over a badly, badly faded Pete. And The Oscar fight, well, I had it a draw. But again, Tito was a force of nature at 147. I think you're wrong about title defenses. Armstrong had 18 when there was only one belt. Tito didn't even unify the division until the Oscar fight. Oscar was the lineal champ. And Tito had straps at 154 and 160, not lineal or undisputed claims. Straps mean little. Bazooka beat some awfully good fighters (Zarate most notably) but he had a losing record against HOFers. Benitez has the best argument, for all the reasons you say (although in reality he was only THE MAN at 140) The other two were straps. What a fighter. One thing to think about though is that Radar was on top for what? 5-6 years? From when he shocked Pambele to when Hamsho just pounded on him? Ortiz was on top for a decade. One other thing. Ortiz fought more fights with HOFers and won more than Benitez, Tito and Bazooka combined!

Four tremendous fighters, Puerto Rico's boxing Mount Rushmore...but Ortiz gets carved first

[ElTerribleMorales]

i agree, out of the 5 i have them

1. Benitez
2. Gomez
3. Trinidad (Ortiz easily could be here)
4. Ortiz (could easily switch with Trinidad)
5. Cotto

i rank Trinidad higher due to the names he beat and apart from his fight with DLH he did so convincingly (seeing how i had DLH winning), as for Camacho well i rank all 5 higher than Macho

Respectfully who did either Tito or El Radar or Bazooka beat who were as good as Ismael Laguna or Duilio Loi or Flash Elorde or Sugar Ramos?

BTW, I LOVE Benitez. Roger Kimball was wrong. There were FIVE kings in the 1980's.

Benitez was beating up grown men at the age of 14, became a world champion beating Cervantes at 17, also he holds a clear win over Duran who by many is considered the greatest lightweight of all time, he's also a 3 weight champion, without a doubt the best technical and defensive fighter to come from the island

Gomez finished his career with the record of 44 Wins only 3 losses and 42 Wins coming by KO, he had wins over the likes of Lockridge, La Porte, Pintor, Kobayashi, and Zarate just to name a few, he lost to Salvador Sanchez and Azumah Nelson by his final loss he was already battling his addiction to cocaine

Trinidad had wins against Vargas, Whitaker, DLH (although controversial), Campas, Joppy, and again a 3 weight champion, he's still today holds the record for most successful title defenses at welterweight

so i'd say that all 3 can make their case for being just as good if not better than Ortiz, who himself is an ATG

c
Believe me I am taking NOTHING away from these other men. But Tito just doesn't stack up. The win over Sweet Pea was over a badly, badly faded Pete. And The Oscar fight, well, I had it a draw. But again, Tito was a force of nature at 147. I think you're wrong about title defenses. Armstrong had 18 when there was only one belt. Tito didn't even unify the division until the Oscar fight. Oscar was the lineal champ. And Tito had straps at 154 and 160, not lineal or undisputed claims. Straps mean little. Bazooka beat some awfully good fighters (Zarate most notably) but he had a losing record against HOFers. Benitez has the best argument, for all the reasons you say (although in reality he was only THE MAN at 140) The other two were straps. What a fighter. One thing to think about though is that Radar was on top for what? 5-6 years? From when he shocked Pambele to when Hamsho just pounded on him? Ortiz was on top for a decade. One other thing. Ortiz fought more fights with HOFers and won more than Benitez, Tito and Bazooka combined!

Four tremendous fighters, Puerto Rico's boxing Mount Rushmore...but Ortiz gets carved first

just cause they weren't lineal champs at those weight classes doesn't mean that he wasn't champ at that weight class, if it were for that Pacquiao wouldn't hold any record and would be merely at the level of DLH if not below him, cause he just won straps at 154, 147, and 135, leaving him at 5 weight classes

if it's good for one guy it's just as good for the other

[generalbulldog]

Pac is still a 4 time lineal champ. I think Oscar was only a lineal champ only once in the 6 divisions he fought. Major difference. And hardcore boxing fans and historians care more about the lineal titles than meaningless trinkets. Any decent fighter can call themself "champ" in this era. Hell look at John Ruiz, he's consider a 2 time HW "champ."

Whitaker was a shot fighter when he fought Tito. I don't know how that is a great win. That's like saying Holmes had a great win over Ali.

[marbleheadmaui]

i agree, out of the 5 i have them

1. Benitez
2. Gomez
3. Trinidad (Ortiz easily could be here)
4. Ortiz (could easily switch with Trinidad)
5. Cotto

i rank Trinidad higher due to the names he beat and apart from his fight with DLH he did so convincingly (seeing how i had DLH winning), as for Camacho well i rank all 5 higher than Macho

Respectfully who did either Tito or El Radar or Bazooka beat who were as good as Ismael Laguna or Duilio Loi or Flash Elorde or Sugar Ramos?

BTW, I LOVE Benitez. Roger Kimball was wrong. There were FIVE kings in the 1980's.

Benitez was beating up grown men at the age of 14, became a world champion beating Cervantes at 17, also he holds a clear win over Duran who by many is considered the greatest lightweight of all time, he's also a 3 weight champion, without a doubt the best technical and defensive fighter to come from the island

Gomez finished his career with the record of 44 Wins only 3 losses and 42 Wins coming by KO, he had wins over the likes of Lockridge, La Porte, Pintor, Kobayashi, and Zarate just to name a few, he lost to Salvador Sanchez and Azumah Nelson by his final loss he was already battling his addiction to cocaine

Trinidad had wins against Vargas, Whitaker, DLH (although controversial), Campas, Joppy, and again a 3 weight champion, he's still today holds the record for most successful title defenses at welterweight

so i'd say that all 3 can make their case for being just as good if not better than Ortiz, who himself is an ATG

c
Believe me I am taking NOTHING away from these other men. But Tito just doesn't stack up. The win over Sweet Pea was over a badly, badly faded Pete. And The Oscar fight, well, I had it a draw. But again, Tito was a force of nature at 147. I think you're wrong about title defenses. Armstrong had 18 when there was only one belt. Tito didn't even unify the division until the Oscar fight. Oscar was the lineal champ. And Tito had straps at 154 and 160, not lineal or undisputed claims. Straps mean little. Bazooka beat some awfully good fighters (Zarate most notably) but he had a losing record against HOFers. Benitez has the best argument, for all the reasons you say (although in reality he was only THE MAN at 140) The other two were straps. What a fighter. One thing to think about though is that Radar was on top for what? 5-6 years? From when he shocked Pambele to when Hamsho just pounded on him? Ortiz was on top for a decade. One other thing. Ortiz fought more fights with HOFers and won more than Benitez, Tito and Bazooka combined!

Four tremendous fighters, Puerto Rico's boxing Mount Rushmore...but Ortiz gets carved first

just cause they weren't lineal champs at those weight classes doesn't mean that he wasn't champ at that weight class, if it were for that Pacquiao wouldn't hold any record and would be merely at the level of DLH if not below him, cause he just won straps at 154, 147, and 135, leaving him at 5 weight classes

if it's good for one guy it's just as good for the other

That's EXACTLY what it means. Anyone who falls for the Manny is an eight division champion is a chowderhead of the lowest order. What makes Manny special? He's the only four division lineal champion in history and he is one of the few to beat top fighters across five of the original divisions.

Please do not fall for the crap promoters try to drive down our throats about belts. If the word CHAMPION is going to mean anything, there can be at most one per division. Right now in boxing there are AT MOST six champions. Wlad, Pascal, Sergio, Segura, JMM and Wonjonkam. Everybody else is a contender with a trinket. All boxing has done is the equivalent of baseball calling division winners champions. The annual baseball king? The team that wins the World Series.

[IamInuit]

i agree, out of the 5 i have them

1. Benitez
2. Gomez
3. Trinidad (Ortiz easily could be here)
4. Ortiz (could easily switch with Trinidad)
5. Cotto

i rank Trinidad higher due to the names he beat and apart from his fight with DLH he did so convincingly (seeing how i had DLH winning), as for Camacho well i rank all 5 higher than Macho

Pretty hard to put anyone ahead of Benitez. Turned pro at what 15 but one of the most incredible things was what he did after turning pro. He beat 25 guys in a span of just over a year prior to challenging and beating Cervantes. Today 25 fights takes about 7 years lol. One can only imagine how he could of added to his outstanding legacy had he chosen a different lifestyle.