Who is manny like

[Hornfinger]

Ben Johnson

[marbleheadmaui]

Ben Johnson

While I am of the belief that nearly all world class athletes are using PED's I see absolutely nothing that makes Manny jump out.

It is when people do things that have never been done before that my eyes open up. Manny hasn't as this data proves. What Manny HAS done that is unique is make technical improvements. But how the heck could drugs make his right hand or balance or footwork better?

[Rantcatrat]

Ben Johnson

While I am of the belief that nearly all world class athletes are using PED's I see absolutely nothing that makes Manny jump out.

It is when people do things that have never been done before that my eyes open up. Manny hasn't as this data proves. What Manny HAS done that is unique is make technical improvements. But how the heck could drugs make his right hand or balance or footwork better?

Three things. One, does Manny's style remind you of anyone from the past? Two, why do you think most world class athletes are using PED's? Does this include Olympic athletes? Three, the question bound to be asked, where does Floyd rank in comparison?

[marbleheadmaui]

Ben Johnson

While I am of the belief that nearly all world class athletes are using PED's I see absolutely nothing that makes Manny jump out.

It is when people do things that have never been done before that my eyes open up. Manny hasn't as this data proves. What Manny HAS done that is unique is make technical improvements. But how the heck could drugs make his right hand or balance or footwork better?

Three things. One, does Manny's style remind you of anyone from the past? Two, why do you think most world class athletes are using PED's? Does this include Olympic athletes? Three, the question bound to be asked, where does Floyd rank in comparison?

Does Manny's style remind me of guys from the past. In pieces sure, Duran, Wilde, Villa, Olivares, Pep. In totality? Not really. The sport hasn't had many blazing fast, lefty powerhouses.

A little personal history. I became friends with a trainer in the early 1990's who was on the staff of several professional sports teams. He told me around 1992 that the correct working presumption was EVERYONE at the world class level was doing something. It was nearly impossible to compete at that level clean. I told him I didn't believe that and he began dropping names. And over the years he never gave me a name where the guy wasn't later caught up in things. Over the years maybe 75-100 names. After 15 years of him being right EVERY SINGLE TIME I quit arguing.

As far as the Olympics go, there was a famous survey of Olympic Athletes done in 1972 where almost 70% of athletes admitted using steroids. Now my guess is that the figure today is FAR higher than that. Testing is a joke. You have to remember that in order to test for something, you really have to know it exists. These chemists and doctors don't give athletes something until they have a masking agent and until they run the same tests WADA runs. The folks who get caught are the folks who make mistakes in protocols, or in the case of BALCO, where someone gives the testers the drugs' formula.

In terms of sheer talent? Mayweather is one of the top 5 guys of my lifetime and probably one of the top 15-20 of all-time. In terms of what he has actually accomplished? He's a borderline top 50. For me THAT is the frustration with him. He simply hasn't done what he could have.

[Hornfinger]

For me Floyd will always have the edge over everyone simply be cuz he insisted on taking the tests. And he passed passed them. Very few athletes can say they did that.

[KananKrus]

Hard hat, lunch pail on a demolition job, looks you straight in the eye... right!

Pacquiao's Ranking Among All-Time Greats - ESPN Video - ESPN

[marbleheadmaui]

Hard hat, lunch pail on a demolition job, looks you straight in the eye... right!

Pacquiao's Ranking Among All-Time Greats - ESPN Video - ESPN

Thanks for that. Pretty dismal group in terms of insight though. I'll bet only Atlas would even recognize ATG names like Ike Williams or Eder Jofre or Jack Britton etc.

I'd LOVE to see this debate with guys like Graham Houston, Mike Silver, Mike Casey, Angelo Dundee, Dan Cuoco, Al Bernstein, Herb Goldman and Max Kellerman around the table.

[captainanddew]

Ben Johnson

While I am of the belief that nearly all world class athletes are using PED's I see absolutely nothing that makes Manny jump out.

It is when people do things that have never been done before that my eyes open up. Manny hasn't as this data proves. What Manny HAS done that is unique is make technical improvements. But how the heck could drugs make his right hand or balance or footwork better?

it isn't as if he bulked up much either. He weighs in and then only puts on a few pounds. When he gets in the ring he is the size that a junior welter normally is when entering the ring (hell, there are alot of junior welters who weigh more than the 148-149 that Pac usually weighs when he walks in the ring). Brandon Rios ballooned up in a fight in the last 6 months to more than Pac weighs and Rios is a lightweight.

The balance is amazing to me. He always had fast feet, but they weren't good. He'd get over-extended, off-balance, etc... The right hand had a nice progression. Roach worked on that for years. It really was in the last 3-4 fights where you could see that Pac's use of his right hand felt natural to him (for a while it looked like Freddie was force feeding that change into him).

[marbleheadmaui]

Ben Johnson

While I am of the belief that nearly all world class athletes are using PED's I see absolutely nothing that makes Manny jump out.

It is when people do things that have never been done before that my eyes open up. Manny hasn't as this data proves. What Manny HAS done that is unique is make technical improvements. But how the heck could drugs make his right hand or balance or footwork better?

it isn't as if he bulked up much either. He weighs in and then only puts on a few pounds. When he gets in the ring he is the size that a junior welter normally is when entering the ring (hell, there are alot of junior welters who weigh more than the 148-149 that Pac usually weighs when he walks in the ring). Brandon Rios ballooned up in a fight in the last 6 months to more than Pac weighs and Rios is a lightweight.

The balance is amazing to me. He always had fast feet, but they weren't good. He'd get over-extended, off-balance, etc... The right hand had a nice progression. Roach worked on that for years. It really was in the last 3-4 fights where you could see that Pac's use of his right hand felt natural to him (for a while it looked like Freddie was force feeding that change into him).

All great points. I first saw Manny, like most of us, in the Ledwaba fight. Then over the years I went back and watched as many of his prior 112 fights as I could find and saw all of his fights since the Ledwaba fight. About 90 seconds into the Diaz fight I was out of my chair saying to a buddy, "who the HELL is THIS? Manny's learned how to box!" It seemed like someone threw a switch!

[Mars_ax]

Not to sound like a "Pactard" but no one is quite like Manny Pacquiao, name another fighter who has moved up as many weight classes and dominated the elite fighters there.

[marbleheadmaui]

Not to sound like a "Pactard" but no one is quite like Manny Pacquiao, name another fighter who has moved up as many weight classes and dominated the elite fighters there.

LOL, did you read my original post? McLarnin and Canzoneri!

There are other guys who have done more than Manny across classes. Langford beat ATG's from 135 to heavyweight, Mickey Walker beat top guys from 147 heavyweight, Barbados Joe Walcott did the same. George Carpentier went from flyweight to heavy (but didn't really beat top guys at fly).

It is an awfully small group.

[miron_lang]

Hey marbleheadmaui


Let me borrow this thread ok? Thanks