Putting BHOP in Perspective

[marbleheadmaui]

I think it should be pointed out that "lineal/legitimate" doesn't necessarily mean BEST.

For instance - Roy Jones doesn't get a mention amongst the legit holders yet he comfortably beat Hopkins at middleweight before moving up in weight. Hopkins became the MAN at middleweight, but during his time there was clearly a fighter that had proved himself better than him.

Hopkins was arguably already the lineal lightheavy champ when he beat Tarver. Which of course stems from a line through Roy Jones. And, of course, Jones had beaten Tarver.

Hopkin's legitimate title wins came against Tito (160) and Pascal (175). They are two excellent wins, but are they the best fighters he's faced? Tito was definitely an A-lister. But his pomp was at welterweight. Although he succesfully moved to middleweight before the Hopkins fight, beating Joppy, no-one believes this was his best division, right?

Pascal has never been P4P rated or an A-lister. He established himself as no.1 at lightheavy and is clearly a world-class fighter. But he'll never be considered "great."

So - is a legitimate claim to being the MAN more important than actual individual victories?

Yes. It is the core of the sport. Now don't get me wrong individual victories can be incredibly important, but they aren't a way of organizing the sport. The desire to be THE MAN and the fights that desire engenders is.

Does that make sense?

It makes sense for boxing fans because it makes things easier to follow/understand.

However, is a legitimate title win against an inferior opponent more important than a non-title win over an apparently superior fighter?

At the end of the day - the title should always come second to the actually quality of the match. No?

No.

It is the "apparently" where I think your case falls down (at least a little). No one has ever been able to define for me the terms "better" or "best" in a boxing sense in a way that helps me think about the sport. BHOP beats Pavlik who beats Taylor who beats BHOP, so who is "the best" of those four? Who was a "better" fighter, Tommy Hearns or Iran Barkely who beat him twice? By what criteria in those cases does one determine who is better or best?

The only organizing principle I can come up with that makes debates like those solvable is by asking who is the most accomplished? THAT approach allows for at least some level of objectivity. The history of the sport is the history of true championships changing hands.

In my view, for the sport to make any sense, the "best" guy at a given weight, at a given moment, is BY DEFINITION the champion (if there is one). Now does that mean the champ is always a favorite? Nope. But until he is actually beaten (and assuming he is resonably active), he gets full credit for being the man.

Let me try a specific example. Many claim Floyd's win over Baldomir isn't that meaningful. They are dead wrong. Why? First because Baldomir had beaten the champion to become champion. THAT is what the sport really revolves around, Second Floyd pursued the champion, what we should want all fighters doing, climbing, or trying, to the top of the mountain.

[Fenster]

Marble,

Here's an example -

Foreman reigns as lineal (THE MAN) heavyweight champion between 1994-97 after stopping Moorer. He defends the LINEAL title against Axel Schulz, Crawford Grimsley and Lou Savarese before losing to Briggs.

During this time - Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis and Tyson are active. As well as Mercer, Morrison, McCall, Ruddock, Bruno, etc.

So, Foreman was without doubt THE man, but was he the no.1 heavyweight in the world? And were his lineal title defences more important than these other top guys facing off?

[marbleheadmaui]

Marble,

Here's an example -

Foreman reigns as lineal (THE MAN) heavyweight champion between 1994-97 after stopping Moorer. He defends the LINEAL title against Axel Schulz, Crawford Grimsley and Lou Savarese before losing to Briggs.

During this time - Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis and Tyson are active. As well as Mercer, Morrison, McCall, Ruddock, Bruno, etc.

So, Foreman was without doubt THE man, but was he the no.1 heavyweight in the world? And were his lineal title defences more important than these other top guys facing off?

Yup and they were at least as important. If Foreman (and BHOP last night) had NOT ascended to the top of the mountain? Why all the hoopla?

Again, if the heavyweight champ is NOT the #1 heavy in the world? Then neither term has any useful meaning and I haven't the vaguest idea how the sport is actually organized. Do you?

[JazMerkin]

Ok, I haven't fully gone through the expansive list at the top, but I've got a few disagreements with the first bit of your lists that offer it.

You've included Emile Griffith & Alexis Arguello as 3 weight lineal champions. Both are two of my personal favourites, but I don't see how you can argue that either was definitively THE MAN at 3 weights. Arguello was undeniably lineal champ at 130 & 135, but I don't see how his win over Olivares makes him lineal champ. I don't think there was a lineal champ after maybe Jofre until maybe the Lopez-Kotei matchup & I don't think that you could argue that there was another fight up that was for the lineal title. They were still alphabets then, even if there were only two of them.

As for Griffith, I know he was champ at WW & MW, but where else? I'm assuming it was for maybe a light-middle title, but who did he beat to make him the man?

I think there's also an argument for Oscar De La Hoya being a 3 division lineal champ at 140, 147 & 154, while on the being a two division champ in at least 2 of the original 8 divisions, you've left out Mayweather & Ross.

Good list though, nice work!

[marbleheadmaui]

Ok, I haven't fully gone through the expansive list at the top, but I've got a few disagreements with the first bit of your lists that offer it.

You've included Emile Griffith & Alexis Arguello as 3 weight lineal champions. Both are two of my personal favourites, but I don't see how you can argue that either was definitively THE MAN at 3 weights. Arguello was undeniably lineal champ at 130 & 135, but I don't see how his win over Olivares makes him lineal champ. I don't think there was a lineal champ after maybe Jofre until maybe the Lopez-Kotei matchup & I don't think that you could argue that there was another fight up that was for the lineal title. They were still alphabets then, even if there were only two of them.

As for Griffith, I know he was champ at WW & MW, but where else? I'm assuming it was for maybe a light-middle title, but who did he beat to make him the man?

I think there's also an argument for Oscar De La Hoya being a 3 division lineal champ at 140, 147 & 154, while on the being a two division champ in at least 2 of the original 8 divisions, you've left out Mayweather & Ross.

Good list though, nice work!

Good thouights all around. At 126 there was no clearcut guy after Jofre, but when Arguello fought Olivares it was pretty clearly 1 vs.2. Ring Magazine, Cyberboxingzone and me all recognize it Plus it was Alexis! (No, I'm not biased there...really...I mean it)

Emile was the inaugural champ at 154 for about seven seconds.

I agree I screwed up on Ross and Mayweather on two divisions! Thanks for the correction!

Oscar at 140? Geeze was Chavez STILL the guy then? Works for me! Thanks again for the corrections!

[JazMerkin]

Ok, I haven't fully gone through the expansive list at the top, but I've got a few disagreements with the first bit of your lists that offer it.

You've included Emile Griffith & Alexis Arguello as 3 weight lineal champions. Both are two of my personal favourites, but I don't see how you can argue that either was definitively THE MAN at 3 weights. Arguello was undeniably lineal champ at 130 & 135, but I don't see how his win over Olivares makes him lineal champ. I don't think there was a lineal champ after maybe Jofre until maybe the Lopez-Kotei matchup & I don't think that you could argue that there was another fight up that was for the lineal title. They were still alphabets then, even if there were only two of them.

As for Griffith, I know he was champ at WW & MW, but where else? I'm assuming it was for maybe a light-middle title, but who did he beat to make him the man?

I think there's also an argument for Oscar De La Hoya being a 3 division lineal champ at 140, 147 & 154, while on the being a two division champ in at least 2 of the original 8 divisions, you've left out Mayweather & Ross.

Good list though, nice work!

Good thouights all around. At 126 there was no clearcut guy after Jofre, but when Arguello fought Olivares it was pretty clearly 1 vs.2. Ring Magazine, Cyberboxingzone and me all recognize it Plus it was Alexis! (No, I'm not biased there...really...I mean it)

Emile was the inaugural champ at 154 for about seven seconds.

I agree I screwed up on Ross and Mayweather on two divisions! Thanks for the correction!

Oscar at 140? Geeze was Chavez STILL the guy then? Works for me! Thanks again for the corrections!

Well if Cyberboxingzone recognizes it that's good enough for me

I have a lot more faith in them than Ring. I still think Olivares was too patchy then to be #1 or #2 (look at me saying that like I was even alive). But it's Arguello so I'm good with it

I still can't go with the Griffith one. I know CBZ agrees with that, but having looked into it the fact it was a vacant title and only recognized by the Austrian Board of Control () has me having doubts.

Yeah, apparently JCC was still the guy somehow.

I like your list though, it's given me greater encouragement on my post in the other thread re: Mayweather. When someone calls me out on it, I'm citing this as my defending evidence

Also made me look up Terry McGovern who I'm ashamed to say I hadn't heard of.

[Fenster]

Marble,

Here's an example -

Foreman reigns as lineal (THE MAN) heavyweight champion between 1994-97 after stopping Moorer. He defends the LINEAL title against Axel Schulz, Crawford Grimsley and Lou Savarese before losing to Briggs.

During this time - Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis and Tyson are active. As well as Mercer, Morrison, McCall, Ruddock, Bruno, etc.

So, Foreman was without doubt THE man, but was he the no.1 heavyweight in the world? And were his lineal title defences more important than these other top guys facing off?

Yup and they were at least as important. If Foreman (and BHOP last night) had NOT ascended to the top of the mountain? Why all the hoopla?

Again, if the heavyweight champ is NOT the #1 heavy in the world? Then neither term has any useful meaning and I haven't the vaguest idea how the sport is actually organized. Do you?

I fully agree Foreman was THE man. His "title" was the only thing worthwhile.

I'm asking you, as a fan, did you really regard Foreman-Savarese a better match-up than Holyfield-Bowe because it had linage attached?

[marbleheadmaui]

Marble,

Here's an example -

Foreman reigns as lineal (THE MAN) heavyweight champion between 1994-97 after stopping Moorer. He defends the LINEAL title against Axel Schulz, Crawford Grimsley and Lou Savarese before losing to Briggs.

During this time - Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis and Tyson are active. As well as Mercer, Morrison, McCall, Ruddock, Bruno, etc.

So, Foreman was without doubt THE man, but was he the no.1 heavyweight in the world? And were his lineal title defences more important than these other top guys facing off?

Yup and they were at least as important. If Foreman (and BHOP last night) had NOT ascended to the top of the mountain? Why all the hoopla?

Again, if the heavyweight champ is NOT the #1 heavy in the world? Then neither term has any useful meaning and I haven't the vaguest idea how the sport is actually organized. Do you?

I fully agree Foreman was THE man. His "title" was the only thing worthwhile.

I'm asking you, as a fan, did you really regard Foreman-Savarese a better match-up than Holyfield-Bowe because it had linage attached?

Foreman-Savarese was more important that Bowe-Holyfield III if that's what you are asking. Was it as much fun? Nope. But that's hindsight isn't it?

[Fenster]

Marble,

Here's an example -

Foreman reigns as lineal (THE MAN) heavyweight champion between 1994-97 after stopping Moorer. He defends the LINEAL title against Axel Schulz, Crawford Grimsley and Lou Savarese before losing to Briggs.

During this time - Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis and Tyson are active. As well as Mercer, Morrison, McCall, Ruddock, Bruno, etc.

So, Foreman was without doubt THE man, but was he the no.1 heavyweight in the world? And were his lineal title defences more important than these other top guys facing off?

Yup and they were at least as important. If Foreman (and BHOP last night) had NOT ascended to the top of the mountain? Why all the hoopla?

Again, if the heavyweight champ is NOT the #1 heavy in the world? Then neither term has any useful meaning and I haven't the vaguest idea how the sport is actually organized. Do you?

I fully agree Foreman was THE man. His "title" was the only thing worthwhile.

I'm asking you, as a fan, did you really regard Foreman-Savarese a better match-up than Holyfield-Bowe because it had linage attached?

Foreman-Savarese was more important that Bowe-Holyfield III if that's what you are asking. Was it as much fun? Nope. But that's hindsight isn't it?

Not really.

The best fight the best is the ultimate goal. It seems as though you're happy for mediocre to fight mediocre if the lineal title is on the line and ignore they're not the best.

You didn't really think Foreman/Savarese were better fighters than Holyfield/Bowe, right?

[marbleheadmaui]

Marble,

Here's an example -

Foreman reigns as lineal (THE MAN) heavyweight champion between 1994-97 after stopping Moorer. He defends the LINEAL title against Axel Schulz, Crawford Grimsley and Lou Savarese before losing to Briggs.

During this time - Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis and Tyson are active. As well as Mercer, Morrison, McCall, Ruddock, Bruno, etc.

So, Foreman was without doubt THE man, but was he the no.1 heavyweight in the world? And were his lineal title defences more important than these other top guys facing off?

Yup and they were at least as important. If Foreman (and BHOP last night) had NOT ascended to the top of the mountain? Why all the hoopla?

Again, if the heavyweight champ is NOT the #1 heavy in the world? Then neither term has any useful meaning and I haven't the vaguest idea how the sport is actually organized. Do you?

I fully agree Foreman was THE man. His "title" was the only thing worthwhile.

I'm asking you, as a fan, did you really regard Foreman-Savarese a better match-up than Holyfield-Bowe because it had linage attached?

Foreman-Savarese was more important that Bowe-Holyfield III if that's what you are asking. Was it as much fun? Nope. But that's hindsight isn't it?

Not really.

The best fight the best is the ultimate goal. It seems as though you're happy for mediocre to fight mediocre if the lineal title is on the line and ignore they're not the best.

You didn't really think Foreman/Savarese were better fighters than Holyfield/Bowe, right?

The value of the title is the ONLY thing that, over time, drives the best fighting the best. Otherwise guys will just take money fights (see Boxing since about 1995). I mean the reason Bowe-Holyfield III matterred at all was because of their prior title fights.