Hopkins p4p ranking?

[badr_hari]

originally pound for pound is about who will own who if they are the same size.

Martinez and Hopkins are 2 divisions apart 160 and 175. Hopkins is clearly bigger but their size is quite similar.

They can settle this in the ring actually maybe at 168. Winner faces Bute.

Well if the part in bold means P4P, than it makes sense, since we can talk about pure skills, not about what they have accomplished. Size advantage aside, Hopkins outclasses Martinez almost in every skill element, so its not like Martinez can be put above him even with this criteria.

[miron_lang]

Well if the part in bold means P4P, than it makes sense, since we can talk about pure skills, not about what they have accomplished. Size advantage aside, Hopkins outclasses Martinez almost in every skill element, so its not like Martinez can be put above him even with this criteria.

Its equally subjective. But with that criteria. Hopkins beats Martinez now at 168.

Heck. (2001) 160lbs Hopkins totally destroys (2011) 160lbs Sergio Martinez. I dont think anybody will argue with that.

[Fenster]

lol - I'm now getting shit for my faulty P4P criteria. It's not mine it's Bilbos. Personally I believe in judging talent/skills/ability as much as resumes considering P4P is mythical nonsense. As this debate shows - Martinez will never be regarded above Hopkins overall yet he clearly is above Hopkins on current form. And that is it. Fact.

[Kev]

lol - I'm now getting shit for my faulty P4P criteria. It's not mine it's Bilbos. Personally I believe in judging talent/skills/ability as much as resumes considering P4P is mythical nonsense. As this debate shows - Martinez will never be regarded above Hopkins overall yet he clearly is above Hopkins on current form. And that is it. Fact.

Well if you are only going to compare recent form then Hopkins is undefeated having gone 4-0-1 in his last five.

Martinez is 3-1-1

So your argument that past achievements don't count makes no sense either. I presume Hopkins would have been in your p4p prior to fighting Joe? He should have been coming off a majestic win over Tarver and he only lost a disputed decision to Calzaghe, by unanimous consensus the p4p number 3 at that time.

Since then he's not lost a fight and scored two outstanding wins against Pavlik and Pascal, and arguably beat Pascal twice.

Martinez has only fought one really good fighter, Paul Williams (who had already been beaten by a B list fighter in Carlos Quintana) and he went 1-1 with him.

Hopkins opposition has simply been better.

[Fenster]

lol - I'm now getting shit for my faulty P4P criteria. It's not mine it's Bilbos. Personally I believe in judging talent/skills/ability as much as resumes considering P4P is mythical nonsense. As this debate shows - Martinez will never be regarded above Hopkins overall yet he clearly is above Hopkins on current form. And that is it. Fact.

Well if you are only going to compare recent form then Hopkins is undefeated having gone 4-0-1 in his last five.

Martinez is 3-1-1

So your argument that past achievements don't count makes no sense either. I presume Hopkins would have been in your p4p prior to fighting Joe? He should have been coming off a majestic win over Tarver and he only lost a disputed decision to Calzaghe, by unanimous consensus the p4p number 3 at that time.

Since then he's not lost a fight and scored two outstanding wins against Pavlik and Pascal, and arguably beat Pascal twice.

Martinez has only fought one really good fighter Paul Williams (who had already been beaten by a B list fighter in Carlos Quintana) and he went 1-1 with him.

Hopkins opposition has simply been better.

Did you pursposely ignore that Martinez beat a far superior Pavlik?

Let me show you again - Pavlik? You are not seriously suggesting Pavlik's best weight has not been 160, right? The weight where he became lineal champ. The weight that he'd never LOST at until meeting Martinez. The weight he IMMEDIATELY moved backdown to after the Hopkins fight. A fight in which Hopkins weighed 185 on the night to Pavliks 176 wearing a tracksuit and trainers. Clearly Pavlik wasn't ready for that weight jump.

Of course Hopkins was rated P4P when beating Tarver and losing to Calzaghe. His opponents either side were Winky and Pavlik. However, that was over three years ago. You have to maintain a level of form, especially using your criteria. Hopkins current level of form is no better than many other fighters, and certainly not in Martinez league.

Show me 5-10 posters that think Hopkins last five opponents are stronger than Martinez? That is ridiculous.

[Kev]

lol - I'm now getting shit for my faulty P4P criteria. It's not mine it's Bilbos. Personally I believe in judging talent/skills/ability as much as resumes considering P4P is mythical nonsense. As this debate shows - Martinez will never be regarded above Hopkins overall yet he clearly is above Hopkins on current form. And that is it. Fact.

Well if you are only going to compare recent form then Hopkins is undefeated having gone 4-0-1 in his last five.

Martinez is 3-1-1

So your argument that past achievements don't count makes no sense either. I presume Hopkins would have been in your p4p prior to fighting Joe? He should have been coming off a majestic win over Tarver and he only lost a disputed decision to Calzaghe, by unanimous consensus the p4p number 3 at that time.

Since then he's not lost a fight and scored two outstanding wins against Pavlik and Pascal, and arguably beat Pascal twice.

Martinez has only fought one really good fighter Paul Williams (who had already been beaten by a B list fighter in Carlos Quintana) and he went 1-1 with him.

Hopkins opposition has simply been better.

Did you pursposely ignore that Martinez beat a far superior Pavlik?

Let me show you again - Pavlik? You are not seriously suggesting Pavlik's best weight has not been 160, right? The weight where he became lineal champ. The weight that he'd never LOST at until meeting Martinez. The weight he IMMEDIATELY moved backdown to after the Hopkins fight. A fight in which Hopkins weighed 185 on the night to Pavliks 176 wearing a tracksuit and trainers. Clearly Pavlik wasn't ready for that weight jump.

Of course Hopkins was rated P4P when beating Tarver and losing to Calzaghe. His opponents either side were Winky and Pavlik. However, that was over three years ago. You have to maintain a level of form, especially using your criteria. Hopkins current level of form is no better than many other fighters, and certainly not in Martinez league.

Show me 5-10 posters that think Hopkins last five opponents are stronger than Martinez? That is ridiculous.

Please explain to me this as you ignored me before...

if Pavliks best weight was 160lbs and he's no good at 170 why is he fighting as a supermiddleweight now and why did he weigh in at 170lbs for his last fight

Kelly Pavlik - Boxer

Check yourself, he came in OVER WEIGHT at 170 lbs.

Now why he would voluntarily come in at a weight he cannot perform at when he's trying to rebuild his career?

Hopkins beat an undefeated prime Pavlik. Martinez beat a psychologically beaten Pavlik at a weight he could no longer comfortably make.

Again please answer me this. If Pavliks ideal weight is 160 lb why is he choosing to fight at 170?

Also regarding maintaining a level of form. Remind me of all the great fighters Nonito Donaire beat between knocking out Vic Darchinyan and then Montiel? It seemed to me he beat up on a lot of little part timers from the lighter weight classes who he outweighed by about a stone and in some cases was almost a foot taller.

[Rantcatrat]

lol - I'm now getting shit for my faulty P4P criteria. It's not mine it's Bilbos. Personally I believe in judging talent/skills/ability as much as resumes considering P4P is mythical nonsense. As this debate shows - Martinez will never be regarded above Hopkins overall yet he clearly is above Hopkins on current form. And that is it. Fact.

Well if you are only going to compare recent form then Hopkins is undefeated having gone 4-0-1 in his last five.

Martinez is 3-1-1

So your argument that past achievements don't count makes no sense either. I presume Hopkins would have been in your p4p prior to fighting Joe? He should have been coming off a majestic win over Tarver and he only lost a disputed decision to Calzaghe, by unanimous consensus the p4p number 3 at that time.

Since then he's not lost a fight and scored two outstanding wins against Pavlik and Pascal, and arguably beat Pascal twice.

Martinez has only fought one really good fighter Paul Williams (who had already been beaten by a B list fighter in Carlos Quintana) and he went 1-1 with him.

Hopkins opposition has simply been better.

Did you pursposely ignore that Martinez beat a far superior Pavlik?

Let me show you again - Pavlik? You are not seriously suggesting Pavlik's best weight has not been 160, right? The weight where he became lineal champ. The weight that he'd never LOST at until meeting Martinez. The weight he IMMEDIATELY moved backdown to after the Hopkins fight. A fight in which Hopkins weighed 185 on the night to Pavliks 176 wearing a tracksuit and trainers. Clearly Pavlik wasn't ready for that weight jump.

Of course Hopkins was rated P4P when beating Tarver and losing to Calzaghe. His opponents either side were Winky and Pavlik. However, that was over three years ago. You have to maintain a level of form, especially using your criteria. Hopkins current level of form is no better than many other fighters, and certainly not in Martinez league.

Show me 5-10 posters that think Hopkins last five opponents are stronger than Martinez? That is ridiculous.

Please explain to me this as you ignored me before...

if Pavliks best weight was 160lbs and he's no good at 170 why is he fighting as a supermiddleweight now and why did he weigh in at 170lbs for his last fight

Kelly Pavlik - Boxer

Check yourself, he came in OVER WEIGHT at 170 lbs.

Now why he would voluntarily come in at a weight he cannot perform at when he's trying to rebuild his career?

Hopkins beat an undefeated prime Pavlik. Martinez beat a psychologically beaten Pavlik at a weight he could no longer comfortably make.

Again please answer me this. If Pavliks ideal weight is 160 lb why is he choosing to fight at 170?

Also regarding maintaining a level of form. Remind me of all the great fighters Nonito Donaire beat between knocking out Vic Darchinyan and then Montiel? It seemed to me he beat up on a lot of little part timers from the lighter weight classes who he outweighed by about a stone and in some cases was almost a foot taller.

What Fenster is arguing, if I'm not mistaken, is that Pavlik was at his best when he was at 160. I agree. The reason is that at 6'1 1/2 with a long reach, he was bigger and longer than most middleweights. When he stepped up in weight, his advantages in height and reach disappeared. That is why he isn't as quality of a fighter now. At middleweight, he could afford to be a plodding fighter against most opponents because he was usually so much bigger, but not so much anymore.

It really doesn't matter why he stepped up in weight. There is no way to know. It could be because he couldn't make weight or it could be because he wanted a bigger money fight and there wasn't one at 160 or it could be because he is just lazy. Either way, Pavlik's advantages aren't as pronounced at 170. Take a look at his most recent fight, he should have dominated that guy. The opponent was hand-picked for Pavlik's come-back fight, and Pavlik didn't look very good. Moreover, if you look at his biggest victories, they came at the middleweight limit.

[miron_lang]

lol - I'm now getting shit for my faulty P4P criteria. It's not mine it's Bilbos. Personally I believe in judging talent/skills/ability as much as resumes considering P4P is mythical nonsense. As this debate shows - Martinez will never be regarded above Hopkins overall yet he clearly is above Hopkins on current form. And that is it. Fact.

You'd favor Martinez againts Hopkins at 168?