The Top Twenty Heavies

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

If we aren't taking social standing/ influence into account, then we shouldn't have to account for something as subjective as HOF.

IMO Canastota assuming that Rocky Balboa is a HOF is no different to me assuming that Ken Norton would be lit up by most of the heavyweights of the 90's... Except that in my eyes, I am right and they are dumb as fuck

Otherwise interesting post. Lots to disagree about

[brocktonblockbust]

too many criteria to balance and tweak like nipples on an aging female goat: we're too busy suckin' to pick a tit.


1. Muhammad Ali because he was great in 2 careers. 1st was built on speed and accuracy. 2nd career on taking major punishment and squeaking it out at the end. Who the hell else could make such an adjustment and still remain.......THE GREATES' !!!

2. Larry Holmes because this guy probably even had a better chin than Ali, a better jab, a better right hand, and better stamina, and he defended his title FOREVER, and should have tied Marciano at 49-0 but was fuckin RAILROADED.

3. George Foreman because he also had 2 fantastic Champion careers. And he maybe had a better chin than Ali AND Holmes, a better right hand and left hook, a wrecking ball left jab, though not the stamina.

4. Joe Louis..........jus' bcuz He knew how to rock and roll, shimmy, and do the twist.

5. Rocky Marciano

*************THESE ARE THE TOP 5 OF ALL TIME**************
6. jACK jOHNSON
7. Joe Frazier
8. JJ Walcott
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Evander Holyfield
*************************************
11. Ezzard Charles
12. Lennox Lewis
13. Mike Tyson
then 14-15 is Liston, Schmeling
***************************************
forget corbett, langford, baer, tunney, klitschkos, bowe, etc....thats ridiculous

[marbleheadmaui]

too many criteria to balance and tweak like nipples on an aging female goat: we're too busy suckin' to pick a tit.


1. Muhammad Ali because he was great in 2 careers. 1st was built on speed and accuracy. 2nd career on taking major punishment and squeaking it out at the end. Who the hell else could make such an adjustment and still remain.......THE GREATES' !!!

2. Larry Holmes because this guy probably even had a better chin than Ali, a better jab, a better right hand, and better stamina, and he defended his title FOREVER, and should have tied Marciano at 49-0 but was fuckin RAILROADED.

3. George Foreman because he also had 2 fantastic Champion careers. And he maybe had a better chin than Ali AND Holmes, a better right hand and left hook, a wrecking ball left jab, though not the stamina.

4. Joe Louis..........jus' bcuz He knew how to rock and roll, shimmy, and do the twist.

5. Rocky Marciano

*************THESE ARE THE TOP 5 OF ALL TIME**************
6. jACK jOHNSON
7. Joe Frazier
8. JJ Walcott
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Evander Holyfield
*************************************
11. Ezzard Charles
12. Lennox Lewis
13. Mike Tyson
then 14-15 is Liston, Schmeling
***************************************
forget corbett, langford, baer, tunney, klitschkos, bowe, etc....thats ridiculous

Forget Langford Really?

[Howlin Mad Missy]

"Occasional losses top great fighters don't have large impact"

Lennox Lewis went 3-0-1 against HOFers but really met only Vitali in what could be called his prime. He defeated 13 ranked heavies. So why isn't he higher? Two bad KO losses just can't be ignored

Sam Langford was not at his best as a heavy but he was still special. Before his eyesight went he was 14-9-8 against HOF heavies. Sam isn't higher because as a heavy he got lazy and he occasionally lost to men he shouldn't have.

Same thing.

I consider the way someone won as well as the way they lost. Stats only tell one part of a story.

[marbleheadmaui]

"Occasional losses top great fighters don't have large impact"

Lennox Lewis went 3-0-1 against HOFers but really met only Vitali in what could be called his prime. He defeated 13 ranked heavies. So why isn't he higher? Two bad KO losses just can't be ignored

Sam Langford was not at his best as a heavy but he was still special. Before his eyesight went he was 14-9-8 against HOF heavies. Sam isn't higher because as a heavy he got lazy and he occasionally lost to men he shouldn't have.

Same thing.

I consider the way someone won as well as the way they lost. Stats only tell one part of a story.

Not remotely the same thing. One getting absolkutely drilled and the other losing decisions is not the same thing. See your own comment.

[Howlin Mad Missy]

"Occasional losses top great fighters don't have large impact"

Lennox Lewis went 3-0-1 against HOFers but really met only Vitali in what could be called his prime. He defeated 13 ranked heavies. So why isn't he higher? Two bad KO losses just can't be ignored

Sam Langford was not at his best as a heavy but he was still special. Before his eyesight went he was 14-9-8 against HOF heavies. Sam isn't higher because as a heavy he got lazy and he occasionally lost to men he shouldn't have.

Same thing.

I consider the way someone won as well as the way they lost. Stats only tell one part of a story.

Not remotely the same thing. One getting absolkutely drilled and the other losing decisions is not the same thing. See your own comment.

Losing by ko or points because you got lazy and didnt train = same thing.

[brocktonblockbust]

Master's list is daft, mad, pixie-mazed, asinine:

Lewis before Foreman wtf??

and NO ROCKY MARCIANO

..........LAY OFF THE LUNATIC BROTH.

[Mars_ax]

Exellent thread Marb, and although I agree with much of the OP, I tend to stay away from "top 20" or alltime great HW threads, because they're usually subjective/bias. They also don't give proper credit some Pugs deserve for being one of the best of their era and/or the individual merit for their accomplishments tends to be overlooked.

My point? Sure you can make edcucated guesses, compare records/stats, typically Louis & Ali come in first and second "top 20", but who's to say that in their own way, Marciano, Holmes, Dempsey, Johnson, Jeffries, Lewis, et al, wasn't 1st or 2nd, or the greatest HW of all time? I mean isn't this basically just a popularity contest based on opinion?

[IamInuit]

Jimmy Young beat Foreman , Lyle and Ali minus the stench scoring and you never see him pop up on such lists. The most underrated, ignored hev of all time.

[ryanman]

"Occasional losses top great fighters don't have large impact"

Lennox Lewis went 3-0-1 against HOFers but really met only Vitali in what could be called his prime. He defeated 13 ranked heavies. So why isn't he higher? Two bad KO losses just can't be ignored

Sam Langford was not at his best as a heavy but he was still special. Before his eyesight went he was 14-9-8 against HOF heavies. Sam isn't higher because as a heavy he got lazy and he occasionally lost to men he shouldn't have.

Same thing.

I consider the way someone won as well as the way they lost. Stats only tell one part of a story.

Not remotely the same thing. One getting absolkutely drilled and the other losing decisions is not the same thing. See your own comment.

It's pretty much the same thing. Putting your analysis of Langford and Lewis side-by-side shows the hyprocrisy clearly.

[marbleheadmaui]

"Occasional losses top great fighters don't have large impact"

Lennox Lewis went 3-0-1 against HOFers but really met only Vitali in what could be called his prime. He defeated 13 ranked heavies. So why isn't he higher? Two bad KO losses just can't be ignored

Sam Langford was not at his best as a heavy but he was still special. Before his eyesight went he was 14-9-8 against HOF heavies. Sam isn't higher because as a heavy he got lazy and he occasionally lost to men he shouldn't have.

Same thing.

I consider the way someone won as well as the way they lost. Stats only tell one part of a story.

Not remotely the same thing. One getting absolkutely drilled and the other losing decisions is not the same thing. See your own comment.

It's pretty much the same thing. Putting your analysis of Langford and Lewis side-by-side shows the hyprocrisy clearly.

First off you need to look up the definition of the word hypocrisy. The we can talk about the rest.

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

I thought everyone knew Muhammad Ali was overrated

Muhammad Ali is definitely overrated. Not as overrated as Sam Langford though.

[marbleheadmaui]

If we aren't taking social standing/ influence into account, then we shouldn't have to account for something as subjective as HOF.

IMO Canastota assuming that Rocky Balboa is a HOF is no different to me assuming that Ken Norton would be lit up by most of the heavyweights of the 90's... Except that in my eyes, I am right and they are dumb as fuck

Otherwise interesting post. Lots to disagree about

The HOF, at this point, remains a reasonable, if imperfect shorthand for greatness.

You do realize Stallone went in in a non-fighting capacity like guys including AJ Liebling, Budd Schulberg. Bert Sugar and Howard Cosell, right?

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

If we aren't taking social standing/ influence into account, then we shouldn't have to account for something as subjective as HOF.

IMO Canastota assuming that Rocky Balboa is a HOF is no different to me assuming that Ken Norton would be lit up by most of the heavyweights of the 90's... Except that in my eyes, I am right and they are dumb as fuck

Otherwise interesting post. Lots to disagree about

The HOF, at this point, remains a reasonable, if imperfect shorthand for greatness.

You do realize Stallone went in in a non-fighting capacity like guys including AJ Liebling, Budd Schulberg. Bert Sugar and Howard Cosell, right?

It's still not solid enough for me. Unfortunately for the sake of this thread, cold hard facts can sometimes be lost on me simply because they are only relevant to their own era's. Which is why IMO, you have to leave room for speculation simply because the ballpark has and always will change.
Ken Norton who went 1-4 against the other major players of his era, is a hall of famer yet Donnavan Ruddock isn't.

Why? Because Ken Norton beat a past prime and somewhat overrated Muhammad Ali.

I do realise Sly was inducted in a non-fighting capacity but I'm allowed artistic licence because i was making a good point with it

[Master]

Ali
Louis
Holmes
Johnson
Tyson
Lewis
Foreman
Frasier
Holyfield
Rocky
Dempsey
Sullivan
Liston
Tunney
Wlad
Fitzsimmons
Corbett
Vitali
Schmeling
Patterson