Ring Magazine on the Road to Sanity

[fan johnny]

I think it's an illegal move. It's called collusion. You can't make agreements in the US to squeeze out the other guys buy controlling the market.

[Spicoli]

Did Nigel really ask that dumb ass question ? Probally why I have not purchased an issue in 2 + years

[marbleheadmaui]

Did Nigel really ask that dumb ass question ? Probally why I have not purchased an issue in 2 + years

Sounds like they want cover for a decision they've already come to. I am happy to help give air cover.

[Spicoli]

Did Nigel really ask that dumb ass question ? Probally why I have not purchased an issue in 2 + years

Sounds like they want cover for a decision they've already come to. I am happy to help give air cover.

I guess they have regressed or giving into group think in regards to mentioning alphabet soup. I remember an issue in which they made a 'mission statement' of sorts as to why they stopped listing the 3 bodies rankings and I.D ing them in own rankings a number of years ago. I can't envision anyone taking exception to them dropping them let alone to them giving merit to that silly "Super-mega-ultra" Champion stuff.

[Kev]

Did Nigel really ask that dumb ass question ? Probally why I have not purchased an issue in 2 + years

Sounds like they want cover for a decision they've already come to. I am happy to help give air cover.

I guess they have regressed or giving into group think in regards to mentioning alphabet soup. I remember an issue in which they made a 'mission statement' of sorts as to why they stopped listing the 3 bodies rankings and I.D ing them in own rankings a number of years ago. I can't envision anyone taking exception to them dropping them let alone to them giving merit to that silly "Super-mega-ultra" Champion stuff.

Yeah I don't know anybody who follows the official rankings of the alphabets. I don't even know who holds what belts let alone who is the IBF top 10 at 140 say. It's of no importance to hardly anyone, the Ring rankings have always been where it's at.

This is why it baffles me when peoplle suddenly treat a belt as if it's a holy, sacred item of unimaginable prestige. Berto musn't be allowed to fight for the IBF belt after coming off a loss! Manny cannot claim a 154 lb title at a catchweight of 150!! Alvavrez should never have been allowed to fight for a belt and be champ.

Really, what does it matter? Nobody pays attention the organisations anyway, they are just there to give a title and some recognition to the top fighters of the moment.

I like the alphabets for that reason. Every sportsman who dedicates 20 odd years amatuer and pro to his craft wants to be able to wins things. All other sports have dozens of trophies, competitions etc up for grabs, and boxing follows suits with 4 titles in each weight class, thus giving the thousands of professional boxers out there the hope of fighting for something meaningful, even if it's not accepted as such by the fans. The fans in boxing have a very self centred approach to their sport imo.

[Spicoli]

They have their entertainment value Bilbo. Sort of like watching a pig farmer wear a blindfold & sort random heads then demand the 1st lb. In fantasy land the orginizations would keep it literal and have number one meet the champ and rankings below meet in eliminations to earn way to top. If your ranked # 10 for Christ sake you should at least defeat a SINGLE guy ranked ahead of you to earn a shot. But the networks would hate that and its not like we fans actually want to see fighters we've never heard of more than once on HBO anyway. I think HBO and Showtime have tunnel vision, and we drink the kool aid.

They 'can' matter but yes, having a belt used to mean something. As it should. Just because its common now to hand them out like door prizes doesn't mean fans aren't right to call bullshit on it when they see it.

[Kev]

They have their entertainment value Bilbo. Sort of like watching a pig farmer wear a blindfold & sort random heads then demand the 1st lb. In fantasy land the orginizations would keep it literal and have number one meet the champ and rankings below meet in eliminations to earn way to top. If your ranked # 10 for Christ sake you should at least defeat a SINGLE guy ranked ahead of you to earn a shot. But the networks would hate that and its not like we fans actually want to see fighters we've never heard of more than once on HBO anyway. I think HBO and Showtime have tunnel vision, and we drink the kool aid.

They 'can' matter but yes, having a belt used to mean something. As it should. Just because its common now to hand them out like door prizes doesn't mean fans aren't right to call bullshit on it when they see it.

With 4 belts you simply can't have the best ranked fighters fighting for each belt as it would be the same guys ranked the same in each organisation.

I think of each organisation seperately, just like in MMA. So Cain Valesquez is the UFC world champ whilst Allister Overeem is the Strikeforce world champ. Actually I think he just got injured and stripped but the point remains. Two world champs, two different organisations.

Well boxing's roster is probably 100 times bigger than the UFC. There are probably 250 UFC contracted fighters and maybe 100 in Strikforce versus maybe 10,000 pro boxers so as the contention rate is much lower 1:1500 per weight class vs maybe 1:100 in the UFC and Strikeforce they have 4 orgainisations instead of two.

It's no problem to me. Considering the welterweight division has 1483 boxers in it (boxrec) and the UFC has maybe 63 fighters in it's welterweight division then even with 4 belts it's still far harder to win a world title in boxing than it is in the UFC.

Fans seem to ignore this. A sportsman who is dedicating his life to his sport wants to have belts, trophies, etc to aim for. Having 4 organisations gives hope to more pro's that one day they can fight for and win a world title and probably keeps them in the sport.

They are not bad for boxing, rather they are necessary for boxing.

[Conrad]

It's weird, I've always thought that the countless alphabets were bad for boxing as I felt it diluted the words 'world champion' somewhat. But the more I think about it the more I think Bilbo is right.

It doesn't really matter anymore how many world champions we have as we all pretty much know who's number 1 in each division thanks to The Ring.

I'm still undecided on whether the numerous belts get in the way of big fights happening though...

[marbleheadmaui]

It's weird, I've always thought that the countless alphabets were bad for boxing as I felt it diluted the words 'world champion' somewhat. But the more I think about it the more I think Bilbo is right.

It doesn't really matter anymore how many world champions we have as we all pretty much know who's number 1 in each division thanks to The Ring.

I'm still undecided on whether the numerous belts get in the way of big fights happening though...

They do.

[NuthaPug]

Where would unification be without alphabet soup?

[marbleheadmaui]

I think it's an illegal move. It's called collusion. You can't make agreements in the US to squeeze out the other guys buy controlling the market.

I don't think it meets the legal requirement for collusion (but I'm not an attorney). Collusion involves fraud. Nobody is saying the straps can't exist, only that they agree not to talk about them.

[fan johnny]

I think it's an illegal move. It's called collusion. You can't make agreements in the US to squeeze out the other guys buy controlling the market.

I don't think it meets the legal requirement for collusion (but I'm not an attorney). Collusion involves fraud. Nobody is saying the straps can't exist, only that they agree not to talk about them.

Collusion is the just the word I to describe the behavior. What it's actually called is "Antitrust Laws". Basically they are in place to keep corporations and the like from joining forces to for out the competition. Another word is called monopoly. It doesn't have to involve fraud to be illegal.

[marbleheadmaui]

I think it's an illegal move. It's called collusion. You can't make agreements in the US to squeeze out the other guys buy controlling the market.

I don't think it meets the legal requirement for collusion (but I'm not an attorney). Collusion involves fraud. Nobody is saying the straps can't exist, only that they agree not to talk about them.

Collusion is the just the word I to describe the behavior. What it's actually called is "Antitrust Laws". Basically they are in place to keep corporations and the like from joining forces to for out the competition. Another word is called monopoly. It doesn't have to involve fraud to be illegal.

I really doubt anti-trust laws apply. For two reasons. First ESPN, Ring etc are press organizations and thus protected by the First Amendment. No way the Gov't tries to tell them what they can or cannot talk about. Second, the anti-trust laws are generally geared around two things (sorry, I wrote papers on the Sherman anti-trust act in college), manipulating pricing and manipulating market shares. Neither applies here. Not mentioning them does nothing to impact the revenue of the alphabet gangs. They still can charge fighters sanctioning fees. In addition ESPN, Ring etc do not compete with the alphabet ganges. They are in different businesses. Ring/ESPN etc make money off subscriptions and advertising, NOT by obtaining sanctioning fees from fighters.

[Kev]

I mst be the only on here who doesn't actually think there is a problem with the belts.

Having 4 titles in each weight class is entirely normal in sport. In golf there are the majors, in tennis the Grand Slams, in soccer, lots of different cups and trophies to aim for.

A single world champ in each weight class would be shit. It would mean certain fighters could be ignored, like in the old days and never get to fight for the title. There would be less interest for non title fights and it would be harder for fighters to get recognition.

Onto the admiteddly silly emeritus and diamond belt situation. I agree they are often silly but actaully they help the sport imo by making sure the biggest name, high profile guys get titles to distinguish them, immediate rematch at a title they once owned etc.

I don't see how that is actually bad beyond people's sensibilities being offended.

So for example maui says Saul Alvarez is no more of a world champ than he is. Well I agree I don't regard him as the true champ in the weight class but right now he is one of the most exciting up and coming fighters and a fighter lots of guys want to see fight so I'm all for a way to make sure he gets the attention and giving him a belt does that.

Just forget about the name. A belt world championship hasn't meant world champion in decades now, fucking get it over it guys! We all know that. The Ring rankings are what people involved in the sport follow.

The belts just attach a title and meaning to a fight to get people watching. Look at golf and tennis. There are all sorts of majors and grand slams. Winning one doesn't mean you are the best player in the wolrd but if they only had one major or one grandslam it would suck.

Would we even watch an event that didn't have a major or grandslam tag to it? I don't think minor events even get televised, certainly only the most hardcore fans will watch them.

Titles and belts are a necessary part of the reward process in any sport. They just act to give a fighter a name and to give a significance and meaning to a fight.

Without them it's just two people fighting, or two people playing tennis. Sportsfans don't watch that.


Just get with the times and stopp griping about redundant arguments.

Your ideas of reform would actually ruin boxing imo.

[marbleheadmaui]

I mst be the only on here who doesn't actually think there is a problem with the belts.

Having 4 titles in each weight class is entirely normal in sport. In golf there are the majors, in tennis the Grand Slams, in soccer, lots of different cups and trophies to aim for.

A single world champ in each weight class would be shit. It would mean certain fighters could be ignored, like in the old days and never get to fight for the title. There would be less interest for non title fights and it would be harder for fighters to get recognition.

Onto the admiteddly silly emeritus and diamond belt situation. I agree they are often silly but actaully they help the sport imo by making sure the biggest name, high profile guys get titles to distinguish them, immediate rematch at a title they once owned etc.

I don't see how that is actually bad beyond people's sensibilities being offended.

So for example maui says Saul Alvarez is no more of a world champ than he is. Well I agree I don't regard him as the true champ in the weight class but right now he is one of the most exciting up and coming fighters and a fighter lots of guys want to see fight so I'm all for a way to make sure he gets the attention and giving him a belt does that.

Just forget about the name. A belt world championship hasn't meant world champion in decades now, fucking get it over it guys! We all know that. The Ring rankings are what people involved in the sport follow.

The belts just attach a title and meaning to a fight to get people watching. Look at golf and tennis. There are all sorts of majors and grand slams. Winning one doesn't mean you are the best player in the wolrd but if they only had one major or one grandslam it would suck.

Would we even watch an event that didn't have a major or grandslam tag to it? I don't think minor events even get televised, certainly only the most hardcore fans will watch them.

Titles and belts are a necessary part of the reward process in any sport. They just act to give a fighter a name and to give a significance and meaning to a fight.

Without them it's just two people fighting, or two people playing tennis. Sportsfans don't watch that.


Just get with the times and stopp griping about redundant arguments.

Your ideas of reform would actually ruin boxing imo.

The data seems to me to show you're dead wrong. The decline of boxing viewerships, shows, national attention etc runs awfully close in time to the emergence of the alphabet organizations in their current formations.

Now why is that? Because the casual fan now has no way of determining the gravity of a fight. Everybody is a champ and therefore nobody is a champ. These belts prevent Sergio Martinez from leaping out as the champion he really is. The casual fan turns on JCC jr or Felix Sturm and says "THIS GUY is a champion? This sport blows." And he is 100% right to say that.

Your argument fails on Golf and Tennis. There is only ONE British Open champ at a time. There is only ONE US Open champ at a time. And you say people won't "just go watch" unless there is something at stake. You've never been to Wimbledon or the US Open is my guess. People don't just show for the finals. They show for the whole two weeks.

Hell if "get withe the times" means everyone gets a championship? Why don't we just stop the World Cup at the semi-finals and call everyone a champ and go home?