Exemplary

[JazMerkin]

You cannot argue that a Klitshcko doesn't tick off all of those traits. But they'll go down as greats.

I'm guessing you mean boxers not as great or legendary. Someone like Paul Mckloskey, the guy will always turn up for a fight and train everything he can. The adaptability tends to go hand in hand with most greats.

I still class the brilliantly one dimensional fighters as proper boxers. Love them actually.

Maidana, Katsidis, Rogan. All true boxers through and through. Head down and swinging, take pretty much anything you throw at them!

You could certainly make an argument that the Klitschkos don't take risky fights, but I'd agree they probably meet the criteria, although I personally don't consider them truly great in the way guys like Pac, Floyd & B-Hop are.

But, where I've really got to draw a line with you mentioning McCloskey. The man put in an absolutely disgusting non-effort in the fight with Khan & got away with it by saying he was planning for the later rounds. Even if you take that as true, what it shows is that he lacks 'bottom' as defined by MHM. The guys we're talking about try to win every second of every round & even if they're not succeeding they don't give up.

Rogan really does lack skill to be exemplary of a fighter. He was exciting, but with all due respect, if you're retiring on your stool against Sam Sexton, that's not a guy to be discussed with the likes of guy mentioned here.

However, Katsidis & Maidana are very good examples. Although they have a tremendous natural gift in that they've both got top level power, they're both far more skilled than credited with. Katsidis uses head movement very well to work his way to the inside, while Maidana is actually a guy who is very adept at adapting to opponents. You'll see how he adjusts the angles of where he throws right hands as a fight goes on. In fact, I can't think of a fight of his where he wasn't taking control later in the fight.

[marbleheadmaui]

You cannot argue that a Klitshcko doesn't tick off all of those traits. But they'll go down as greats.

I'm guessing you mean boxers not as great or legendary. Someone like Paul Mckloskey, the guy will always turn up for a fight and train everything he can. The adaptability tends to go hand in hand with most greats.

I still class the brilliantly one dimensional fighters as proper boxers. Love them actually.

Maidana, Katsidis, Rogan. All true boxers through and through. Head down and swinging, take pretty much anything you throw at them!

You could certainly make an argument that the Klitschkos don't take risky fights, but I'd agree they probably meet the criteria, although I personally don't consider them truly great in the way guys like Pac, Floyd & B-Hop are.

But, where I've really got to draw a line with you mentioning McCloskey. The man put in an absolutely disgusting non-effort in the fight with Khan & got away with it by saying he was planning for the later rounds. Even if you take that as true, what it shows is that he lacks 'bottom' as defined by MHM. The guys we're talking about try to win every second of every round & even if they're not succeeding they don't give up.

Rogan really does lack skill to be exemplary of a fighter. He was exciting, but with all due respect, if you're retiring on your stool against Sam Sexton, that's not a guy to be discussed with the likes of guy mentioned here.

However, Katsidis & Maidana are very good examples. Although they have a tremendous natural gift in that they've both got top level power, they're both far more skilled than credited with. Katsidis uses head movement very well to work his way to the inside, while Maidana is actually a guy who is very adept at adapting to opponents. You'll see how he adjusts the angles of where he throws right hands as a fight goes on. In fact, I can't think of a fight of his where he wasn't taking control later in the fight.

To be fair to the Ukranians, who, outside of each other, have they not fought who they should have?

[JazMerkin]

To be fair to the Ukranians, who, outside of each other, have they not fought who they should have?

It's not really a position that I ascribe to, I think that as fans we have to accept that certain fights just don't happen. Still I've (laughably imo) heard that the Klitschkos didn't want to fight Valuev, Tua, Holyfield, a 'prime Shannon Briggs' (whatever the fuck that is). As I said I think it's bollocks.

Where there could be a question is on 'risky opponents'. Lewis aside, has either bro ever fought a guy they weren't favoured to beat? Probably, but can't think of any off the top of my head. They'd meet my requirements.

[marbleheadmaui]

To be fair to the Ukranians, who, outside of each other, have they not fought who they should have?

It's not really a position that I ascribe to, I think that as fans we have to accept that certain fights just don't happen. Still I've (laughably imo) heard that the Klitschkos didn't want to fight Valuev, Tua, Holyfield, a 'prime Shannon Briggs' (whatever the fuck that is). As I said I think it's bollocks.

Where there could be a question is on 'risky opponents'. Lewis aside, has either bro ever fought a guy they weren't favoured to beat? Probably, but can't think of any off the top of my head. They'd meet my requirements.

You're rolling tonight. Another fine post.

[0james0]

Yeah I take back Mclosckey.

Wasn't really thinking, got caught up more in the "train hard take it serious" trait than the others.

Stand by Rogan though, that guy was built to be a fighter, lack of skills yes, the Sexton 2 night was odd, he didn't seem his normal self at all.

[Kev]

You cannot argue that a Klitshcko doesn't tick off all of those traits. But they'll go down as greats.

I'm guessing you mean boxers not as great or legendary. Someone like Paul Mckloskey, the guy will always turn up for a fight and train everything he can. The adaptability tends to go hand in hand with most greats.

I still class the brilliantly one dimensional fighters as proper boxers. Love them actually.

Maidana, Katsidis, Rogan. All true boxers through and through. Head down and swinging, take pretty much anything you throw at them!

You could certainly make an argument that the Klitschkos don't take risky fights, but I'd agree they probably meet the criteria, although I personally don't consider them truly great in the way guys like Pac, Floyd & B-Hop are.
.

huh? Who have they ever avoided apart from each other? Ok Vitali was inactive for a few years but they have both fought and beat the best opposition available to them. How could they have taken any riskier fights?

Also, I object to the veneration of Ivan Calderon as if he did something amazing in ebating Hugo Cazares and then getting battered by Segura.

He was a decent little fighter in a weight class hopelessly devoid of talent. Segura was hardly a big man either. 108 lbs, that's like the weight of an average 5 year old American child.

Plus Calderon started out his career at 107 so it's not even true he climbed up trhough divisions.

When you have Manny who went from 104 to 154 and smashed everybody up and Ivan gets battered by a man who even I look physically imposing against I just donn't see how he can be considered just short of great.

If Calderon had been 147lbs he would just be another Malignaggi, a decent fighter, maybe capable of winning a belt, but not of challenging the top guys in the weight class.

He fought in a division with about 300 pro fighters, versus the 1000/1500 in most of the others. None of them are fulltime professionals, in football terms it's like being top of the Isthmian League and then struggling when they got promoted to the Conference South.

Sure he was skilfull and elusive, but he also had a crippling lack of power and phsyical strength that would have been considered far more of a weakness had he not operated in such a weak talent pool.

Hey, my view may not be popular but's it the truth.

[JazMerkin]

You could certainly make an argument that the Klitschkos don't take risky fights, but I'd agree they probably meet the criteria, although I personally don't consider them truly great in the way guys like Pac, Floyd & B-Hop are.
.

huh? Who have they ever avoided apart from each other? Ok Vitali was inactive for a few years but they have both fought and beat the best opposition available to them. How could they have taken any riskier fights?

Also, I object to the veneration of Ivan Calderon as if he did something amazing in ebating Hugo Cazares and then getting battered by Segura.

He was a decent little fighter in a weight class hopelessly devoid of talent. Segura was hardly a big man either. 108 lbs, that's like the weight of an average 5 year old American child.

Plus Calderon started out his career at 107 so it's not even true he climbed up trhough divisions.

When you have Manny who went from 104 to 154 and smashed everybody up and Ivan gets battered by a man who even I look physically imposing against I just donn't see how he can be considered just short of great.

If Calderon had been 147lbs he would just be another Malignaggi, a decent fighter, maybe capable of winning a belt, but not of challenging the top guys in the weight class.

He fought in a division with about 300 pro fighters, versus the 1000/1500 in most of the others. None of them are fulltime professionals, in football terms it's like being top of the Isthmian League and then struggling when they got promoted to the Conference South.

Sure he was skilfull and elusive, but he also had a crippling lack of power and phsyical strength that would have been considered far more of a weakness had he not operated in such a weak talent pool.

Hey, my view may not be popular but's it the truth.

Read my above post about the Klitschkos. It's not something I believe, just an argument I've heard given.

On Calderon you are clearly off on one. No one in this thread is saying he's the greatest fighter of all time & if you read my post I argued he fell just short of being great. However, what he showed is what you want to see a fighter doing. Always turning up to fight in shape, always taking on the best opposition, showed heart in the ring & was an intelligent fighter. Him not having power is besides the point, it only re-emphasises how impressive it was that the could beat bigger men through skill.

Segura walks around at 135lbs, Calderon at about 115lbs. That is quite a difference at that weight. Quoting numbers of available fighters tells you nothing about how good he would have done with a wider pool. It's like saying that Manny Pacquiao & Floyd Mayweather would have been contenders in the 60s & 70s because there were more welterweights back then.

Many boxers are not full-time pros, shockingly unless you're at the very top, it's not the best paying job in the world. The very best little guys can be just as good as any other fighter. Trying to say you look physically imposing is laughable. I've seen a light-flyweight amateur knock a 6'2 guy who looked about 200lbs unconscious in a nightclub. Ivan Calderon might not be a huge puncher in pro boxing, but he'd probably beat most posters on here unconscious.

[Kev]

You could certainly make an argument that the Klitschkos don't take risky fights, but I'd agree they probably meet the criteria, although I personally don't consider them truly great in the way guys like Pac, Floyd & B-Hop are.
.

huh? Who have they ever avoided apart from each other? Ok Vitali was inactive for a few years but they have both fought and beat the best opposition available to them. How could they have taken any riskier fights?

Also, I object to the veneration of Ivan Calderon as if he did something amazing in ebating Hugo Cazares and then getting battered by Segura.

He was a decent little fighter in a weight class hopelessly devoid of talent. Segura was hardly a big man either. 108 lbs, that's like the weight of an average 5 year old American child.

Plus Calderon started out his career at 107 so it's not even true he climbed up trhough divisions.

When you have Manny who went from 104 to 154 and smashed everybody up and Ivan gets battered by a man who even I look physically imposing against I just donn't see how he can be considered just short of great.

If Calderon had been 147lbs he would just be another Malignaggi, a decent fighter, maybe capable of winning a belt, but not of challenging the top guys in the weight class.

He fought in a division with about 300 pro fighters, versus the 1000/1500 in most of the others. None of them are fulltime professionals, in football terms it's like being top of the Isthmian League and then struggling when they got promoted to the Conference South.

Sure he was skilfull and elusive, but he also had a crippling lack of power and phsyical strength that would have been considered far more of a weakness had he not operated in such a weak talent pool.

Hey, my view may not be popular but's it the truth.

Read my above post about the Klitschkos. It's not something I believe, just an argument I've heard given.

On Calderon you are clearly off on one. No one in this thread is saying he's the greatest fighter of all time & if you read my post I argued he fell just short of being great. However, what he showed is what you want to see a fighter doing. Always turning up to fight in shape, always taking on the best opposition, showed heart in the ring & was an intelligent fighter. Him not having power is besides the point, it only re-emphasises how impressive it was that the could beat bigger men through skill.

Segura walks around at 135lbs, Calderon at about 115lbs. That is quite a difference at that weight. Quoting numbers of available fighters tells you nothing about how good he would have done with a wider pool. It's like saying that Manny Pacquiao & Floyd Mayweather would have been contenders in the 60s & 70s because there were more welterweights back then.

Many boxers are not full-time pros, shockingly unless you're at the very top, it's not the best paying job in the world. The very best little guys can be just as good as any other fighter. Trying to say you look physically imposing is laughable. I've seen a light-flyweight amateur knock a 6'2 guy who looked about 200lbs unconscious in a nightclub. Ivan Calderon might not be a huge puncher in pro boxing,

I don't really have anything decent to come back with so I'll just resort to childish insults.

Fuck off Jaz you prick.

[JazMerkin]

You could certainly make an argument that the Klitschkos don't take risky fights, but I'd agree they probably meet the criteria, although I personally don't consider them truly great in the way guys like Pac, Floyd & B-Hop are.
.

huh? Who have they ever avoided apart from each other? Ok Vitali was inactive for a few years but they have both fought and beat the best opposition available to them. How could they have taken any riskier fights?

Also, I object to the veneration of Ivan Calderon as if he did something amazing in ebating Hugo Cazares and then getting battered by Segura.

He was a decent little fighter in a weight class hopelessly devoid of talent. Segura was hardly a big man either. 108 lbs, that's like the weight of an average 5 year old American child.

Plus Calderon started out his career at 107 so it's not even true he climbed up trhough divisions.

When you have Manny who went from 104 to 154 and smashed everybody up and Ivan gets battered by a man who even I look physically imposing against I just donn't see how he can be considered just short of great.

If Calderon had been 147lbs he would just be another Malignaggi, a decent fighter, maybe capable of winning a belt, but not of challenging the top guys in the weight class.

He fought in a division with about 300 pro fighters, versus the 1000/1500 in most of the others. None of them are fulltime professionals, in football terms it's like being top of the Isthmian League and then struggling when they got promoted to the Conference South.

Sure he was skilfull and elusive, but he also had a crippling lack of power and phsyical strength that would have been considered far more of a weakness had he not operated in such a weak talent pool.

Hey, my view may not be popular but's it the truth.

Read my above post about the Klitschkos. It's not something I believe, just an argument I've heard given.

On Calderon you are clearly off on one. No one in this thread is saying he's the greatest fighter of all time & if you read my post I argued he fell just short of being great. However, what he showed is what you want to see a fighter doing. Always turning up to fight in shape, always taking on the best opposition, showed heart in the ring & was an intelligent fighter. Him not having power is besides the point, it only re-emphasises how impressive it was that the could beat bigger men through skill.

Segura walks around at 135lbs, Calderon at about 115lbs. That is quite a difference at that weight. Quoting numbers of available fighters tells you nothing about how good he would have done with a wider pool. It's like saying that Manny Pacquiao & Floyd Mayweather would have been contenders in the 60s & 70s because there were more welterweights back then.

Many boxers are not full-time pros, shockingly unless you're at the very top, it's not the best paying job in the world. The very best little guys can be just as good as any other fighter. Trying to say you look physically imposing is laughable. I've seen a light-flyweight amateur knock a 6'2 guy who looked about 200lbs unconscious in a nightclub. Ivan Calderon might not be a huge puncher in pro boxing,

I don't really have anything decent to come back with so I'll just resort to childish insults.

Fuck off Jaz you prick.

It's been too long since we were on opposing sides of an argument Bilbo. You little bitch.


This is what veteran posting is all about.