60's ALI: there is no HW great that could have beaten him.

[BigLuke]

Ali is the greatest of all time for a reason. He was the greatest of all time. In his prime he is a level above the rest.

[ICB]

Ali is the greatest of all time for a reason. He was the greatest of all time. In his prime he is a level above the rest.

No he isn't the greatest of all time.

[Trainer Monkey]

Ali is the greatest of all time for a reason. He was the greatest of all time. In his prime he is a level above the rest.

No he isn't the greatest of all time.

You watch too many documentaries
The whole reason you get so bent about him is,yeah he really was that good
The man hasnt boxed in your lifetime,hell the man hasnt been able to hold a cup of coffee in your lifetime,but you vehemently take any chance you can to slam him.
Any Ron Lyle,Jerry Quarry threads youd like to respond to?

[ICB]

Funny,I just watched Ali/Frazier 3 again last night
Frazier was a far superior fighter then Tyson even then,just as fast,just as strong,not nearly so one dimensional as Tyson,whose entire game plan was either knock him out or get in to maintain head to head contact
Ali just abuses him in that fight
And thats the old Ali
Ali would destroy Tyson

Totally disagree Tyson has better defense than Frazier, puts combos together, etc. Frazier has bigger heart. But to say Frazier is superior fighter is way off the mark IMO.

Tyson had a terrible defense,it was two hands high at all times with no nuance what so ever
With the variation of the Philly crab that Frazier fought in you could change it up,two hand high your stuck,which is why when Tysons foot speed was shot,so was he. That guards relatively easy to beat

Tyson had a terrible defense,it was two hands high at all times with no nuance what so ever

Thats total nonsense i see Tyson avoid 10 punches in a row then spark the other guy out. Tyson had terrible defense are you kidding me ??

Frazier used to get caught all the time in fights, he used to bob and weaver but not throw any punches, Tyson would bob a weaver 3 or 4 times then land his punches, Frazier's defense is nowhere near as good as Tyson's.

That guards relatively easy to beat

Yeah thats why when he no longer had the footspeed a nobody like Danny Williams tore him up
His Defense sucked,in his prime he had great,and I do mean great footspeed,when that went,so did he.
You want to fight that guard,go right ahead,just tell me where to send the flowers or make a donation in lieu of flowers
Tyson got by on intimidation for a long time,guys would freeze up,Bruno especially
Your feelings on Ali
He was racist,no he wasnt,but America at the time certainly was,he got death threats over Frazier/Ali 1
He was racist towards Frazier,no he gave everybody he fought a nickname,Liston was the Bear,Frazier was the Gorilla,etc,etc
I think part of what was so hurtful about that nickname towards Joe,was he couldnt understand why every white construction worker wanted him to win,and Ali was the black champ.
Theyve talked it out,why that happened was Ali stood up to the white power structure in this country
You dont think there is one,black people have been free in this country for how long?
Name me a black president
Hell,we've only had one catholic one
White protestant males as far as the eye can see
Youve also bought in to the Larry Holmes self pity of "They all hated me because I beat Ali"
I love Larry Holmes,he's one of my idols
But you know why people hated him?
He wasnt exciting
Ali could talk,Frazier could sing,Norton could act,Spinks could scare animals out of the woods if he smiled,Foreman could preach,Larry just methodically beat people up.
And if you dont think America was racist in the 60's and 70's,
Why were so many people rooting for Cooney?

Yeah thats why when he no longer had the footspeed a nobody like Danny Williams tore him up

Uhh he lost because he had an injury, plus he didn't have his head movement anymore thats obvious.

His Defense sucked,in his prime he had great,and I do mean great footspeed,when that went,so did he.
You want to fight that guard,go right ahead,just tell me where to send the flowers or make a donation in lieu of flowers

How can his defense suck ?? have you seen his early fights ?? he had amazing head movement, he could make fighters miss with 10 punches in a row then counter.

I don't fight that way because im more lean and i use speed/slickness but it doesn't mean Tyson's defense sucks thats ridiculous.

He wasnt exciting

Holmes vs Witherspoon
Holmes vs Norton
Holmes vs Weaver
Holmes vs Cooney
Holmes vs Bonecrusher
Holmes vs Shavers 1 and 2
Holmes vs Snipes

All those fights were exciting, plus most of Ali's fights were boring as well.

[ICB]

Ali is the greatest of all time for a reason. He was the greatest of all time. In his prime he is a level above the rest.

No he isn't the greatest of all time.

You watch too many documentaries
The whole reason you get so bent about him is,yeah he really was that good
The man hasnt boxed in your lifetime,hell the man hasnt been able to hold a cup of coffee in your lifetime,but you vehemently take any chance you can to slam him.
Any Ron Lyle,Jerry Quarry threads youd like to respond to?

The man hasnt boxed in your lifetime,hell the man hasnt been able to hold a cup of coffee in your lifetime,but you vehemently take any chance you can to slam him.

Oh please enough of the drama, just because i don't agree that he is the greatest of all time

The whole reason you get so bent about him is,yeah he really was that good

Or maybe just maybe i don't like him ??

[Trainer Monkey]

Or maybe you watch way too many documetaries
Face it Tysons style is easy to beat,ever notice against somebody with a decent jab who wasnt intimidated by him,or with good lateral movement,Tyson got eaten up and frustrated
Certain styles exist for certain fighters
But every one of those styles have a flaw
Unless your fast as hell,dont try the one hand up Mexican style
If you arent short for your weight and have really good footspeed,do not try either Fraziers or Tysons style
And dont do anything Ali did,period
Ali could do that,and you arent Ali
And as far as drama,your the one who angrily posts on every Ali thread
And refuses to acknowledge anything good about him
Do you know him personally?
Do you know anything,at all about the times you judge him in the context of?

[Trainer Monkey]

For the record,I was the first person I know who said Tyson was going to be champ

[ICB]

Or maybe you watch way too many documetaries
Face it Tysons style is easy to beat,ever notice against somebody with a decent jab who wasnt intimidated by him,or with good lateral movement,Tyson got eaten up and frustrated
Certain styles exist for certain fighters
But every one of those styles have a flaw
Unless your fast as hell,dont try the one hand up Mexican style
If you arent short for your weight and have really good footspeed,do not try either Fraziers or Tysons style
And dont do anything Ali did,period
Ali could do that,and you arent Ali
And as far as drama,your the one who angrily posts on every Ali thread
And refuses to acknowledge anything good about him
Do you know him personally?
Do you know anything,at all about the times you judge him in the context of?

Or maybe you watch way too many documetaries

I hardly watch any.

Face it Tysons style is easy to beat,ever notice against somebody with a decent jab who wasnt

Uhh your talking nonsense Tyson style is not *easy* to beat, and even though Holmes was past his prime. His jab was hardly effective against Tyson's style.

or with good lateral movement,Tyson got eaten up and frustrated

Tony Tucker, Tyrell Biggs, James Tillis, all 3 of these names had good movement and Tyson beat all 3 convincing.

And as far as drama,your the one who angrily posts on every Ali thread

Nope i just give the you the facts on his fights and opposition, your the one that gets angry. Over my comments thats why you keep replying to them

I only reply when i see biased fans saying Ali is greatest of all time, greatest this, greatest that. etc

And refuses to acknowledge anything good about him

Totally wrong and untrue i respect Ali, but i don't like him. I think he had great movement, Great jab, Great chin, Great heart, Great at frustrating his opponent, and Great tactics even though i don't always agree with them.

Do you know him personally?

Nope but neither do you.

Do you know anything,at all about the times you judge him in the context of?

Its my choice if i dislike someone or not, i don't need someone to try and keep convincing me because it won't work. If i dislike someone its my choice and you won't change my mind end of.

[cockey cockney]

I dont consider Ali to be the greatest of all fighters p4p all time either. He is a great boxer no doubt about it but there where people in the lower weight classes who did just as much if not more then Ali.
Oh and by the way a prime Tyson was very very difficult to beat for ANYONE he had a very good defence and you not only had to work that out...you have to avoid being ko'd as he had soooo much power and speed.

[Trainer Monkey]

Or maybe you watch way too many documetaries
Face it Tysons style is easy to beat,ever notice against somebody with a decent jab who wasnt intimidated by him,or with good lateral movement,Tyson got eaten up and frustrated
Certain styles exist for certain fighters
But every one of those styles have a flaw
Unless your fast as hell,dont try the one hand up Mexican style
If you arent short for your weight and have really good footspeed,do not try either Fraziers or Tysons style
And dont do anything Ali did,period
Ali could do that,and you arent Ali
And as far as drama,your the one who angrily posts on every Ali thread
And refuses to acknowledge anything good about him
Do you know him personally?
Do you know anything,at all about the times you judge him in the context of?

Or maybe you watch way too many documetaries

I hardly watch any.

Face it Tysons style is easy to beat,ever notice against somebody with a decent jab who wasnt

Uhh your talking nonsense Tyson style is not *easy* to beat, and even though Holmes was past his prime. His jab was hardly effective against Tyson's style.

or with good lateral movement,Tyson got eaten up and frustrated

Tony Tucker, Tyrell Biggs, James Tillis, all 3 of these names had good movement and Tyson beat all 3 convincing.

And as far as drama,your the one who angrily posts on every Ali thread

Nope i just give the you the facts on his fights and opposition, your the one that gets angry. Over my comments thats why you keep replying to them

I only reply when i see biased fans saying Ali is greatest of all time, greatest this, greatest that. etc

And refuses to acknowledge anything good about him

Totally wrong and untrue i respect Ali, but i don't like him. I think he had great movement, Great jab, Great chin, Great heart, Great at frustrating his opponent, and Great tactics even though i don't always agree with them.

Do you know him personally?

Nope but neither do you.

Do you know anything,at all about the times you judge him in the context of?

Its my choice if i dislike someone or not, i don't need someone to try and keep convincing me because it won't work. If i dislike someone its my choice and you won't change my mind end of.

You obviously still do,because your sellin the very line of rubbish Bert Sugar sells to make Ali sound bigger then he was
But you use it in the inverse constantly to make it like Ali wasnt that good
For instance,every time you dont have a good argument,you fall back to Cooper,a lunging very solid counter puncher who gets toyed with the entire fight.
Yeah the absolute best way to judge a fighter is an early fight,on the other guys turf,where he just toys with his opponent and gets caught with a lucky shot.He was up at 3 for gods sake,and spent the entire fight toying with that bloody mess

[Trainer Monkey]

And the last one Ice says you have absolutely no idea whatsoever about the states back then
Let me put it this way,so you understand,if you were black and got to uppity,rope could(By which I mean probably would) be in your future
Now if youve got some great footage of Ali lynching someone,or sicking dogs on white people,or refusing to serve some body at the coloreds only side of the Woolworths side of the fountain,please share it.
You know what the Marine high ups called black Marines during the Vietnam War?
Bullet Catchers
Man that evil black devil Ali just opened up the hoses on poor Chuck Wepner
Name me a black heavyweight champ who gave more white fighters a shot at glory since then
Yeah its obvious he screwed around with guys,but an honest question,that Im sure youll ignore,who do you think prides feels better,Chuvallo and Cooper,or Mr Less Then A Minutes Spinks and Marvis Frazier?
What do you think is a better story for the grandkids
Zora Foley"I did 7 rounds with Ali"
or
Sammy Scaffe"I was a bloodied mess and out cold in a round with Tyson"
?
Yeah he toyed with guys,but except for 2 notable occasions where his opponent had been winding him up first,he allowed guys to get out with their dignity intact

[ICB]

Or maybe you watch way too many documetaries
Face it Tysons style is easy to beat,ever notice against somebody with a decent jab who wasnt intimidated by him,or with good lateral movement,Tyson got eaten up and frustrated
Certain styles exist for certain fighters
But every one of those styles have a flaw
Unless your fast as hell,dont try the one hand up Mexican style
If you arent short for your weight and have really good footspeed,do not try either Fraziers or Tysons style
And dont do anything Ali did,period
Ali could do that,and you arent Ali
And as far as drama,your the one who angrily posts on every Ali thread
And refuses to acknowledge anything good about him
Do you know him personally?
Do you know anything,at all about the times you judge him in the context of?

Or maybe you watch way too many documetaries

I hardly watch any.

Face it Tysons style is easy to beat,ever notice against somebody with a decent jab who wasnt

Uhh your talking nonsense Tyson style is not *easy* to beat, and even though Holmes was past his prime. His jab was hardly effective against Tyson's style.

or with good lateral movement,Tyson got eaten up and frustrated

Tony Tucker, Tyrell Biggs, James Tillis, all 3 of these names had good movement and Tyson beat all 3 convincing.

And as far as drama,your the one who angrily posts on every Ali thread

Nope i just give the you the facts on his fights and opposition, your the one that gets angry. Over my comments thats why you keep replying to them

I only reply when i see biased fans saying Ali is greatest of all time, greatest this, greatest that. etc

And refuses to acknowledge anything good about him

Totally wrong and untrue i respect Ali, but i don't like him. I think he had great movement, Great jab, Great chin, Great heart, Great at frustrating his opponent, and Great tactics even though i don't always agree with them.

Do you know him personally?

Nope but neither do you.

Do you know anything,at all about the times you judge him in the context of?

Its my choice if i dislike someone or not, i don't need someone to try and keep convincing me because it won't work. If i dislike someone its my choice and you won't change my mind end of.

You obviously still do,because your sellin the very line of rubbish Bert Sugar sells to make Ali sound bigger then he was
But you use it in the inverse constantly to make it like Ali wasnt that good
For instance,every time you dont have a good argument,you fall back to Cooper,a lunging very solid counter puncher who gets toyed with the entire fight.
Yeah the absolute best way to judge a fighter is an early fight,on the other guys turf,where he just toys with his opponent and gets caught with a lucky shot.He was up at 3 for gods sake,and spent the entire fight toying with that bloody mess

You obviously still do,because your sellin the very line of rubbish Bert Sugar sells to make Ali sound bigger then he was
But you use it in the inverse constantly to make it like Ali wasnt that good

Sorry but this is ridiculous and im getting bored with this argument, i just give Ali credit. But in your eyes im still not giving him credit because i don't share your views that he is greatest of all time

For instance,every time you dont have a good argument,you fall back to Cooper,a lunging very solid counter puncher who gets toyed with the entire fight.

Oh i have used every argument, Jones, Norton, Cooper, Young, which one would you like to me use ?? i think i have stated my points very well.

Yeah the absolute best way to judge a fighter is an early fight,on the other guys turf,where he just toys with his opponent and gets caught with a lucky shot.He was up at 3 for gods sake,and spent the entire fight toying with that bloody mess

Well what about Doug Jones fight ?? whats your excuse for that fight ?? i haven't only brung up Cooper fight. I have brought up all the different fights where he has struggled so tell me whats your excuse for that fight ??

[DaxxKahn]

[quote=Ice Cold Boxing ]

Nope i just give the you the facts on his fights and opposition, your the one that gets angry. Over my comments thats why you keep replying to them

I only reply when i see biased fans saying Ali is greatest of all time, greatest this, greatest that. etc

He is not the greatest fighter of all time but the greatest HW ICB....Even if you don't think so it is almost impossible to rank him less then second.....

So what he was knocked down...hell since when does that mean your not good?....Ray Robinson was down dozens of times during his career and by much lesser guys but are you going to argue his status in history?...another fighter that is almost impossible to rank anything lower then third on any P4P list....

The fact the man got up to finsish the fights is all that counts



We He isn

[ICB]

He is not the greatest fighter of all time but the greatest HW ICB....Even if you don't think so it is almost impossible to rank him less then second.....

Joe Louis could be ranked 1st based on how long his Championship reign was, even if he didn't have the opposition Ali did. Just depends on what way you look at it.

So what he was knocked down...hell since when does that mean your not good?....

I never said he wasn't good, i just disagree that Ali could beat any Heavyweight in history easily. Like the creator of this thread was implying.

So i started the debate and brought up the fights where he was knocked down. Or fights where he struggled in to try and prove my point that Ali wasn't unbeatable, even though some people take it the wrong way and think i give Ali no credit

Ray Robinson was down dozens of times during his career and by much lesser guys but are you going to argue his status in history?

No one on this forum has seen the fights where Robinson was knocked down, and hardly anyone has seen any of his fights at Welterweight. So no one can comment or argue his status in history. We can only go on stats or what we have read. I certainly would love to see Robinson in his prime at Welterweight to see how good he was, but i can't so i can't really rate how good he was. The footage i've seen of Robinson he looked great but i have only seen very little footage of him so i can't really rate how great he was.

[DaxxKahn]

He is not the greatest fighter of all time but the greatest HW ICB....Even if you don't think so it is almost impossible to rank him less then second.....

Joe Louis could be ranked 1st based on how long his Championship reign was, even if he didn't have the opposition Ali did. Just depends on what way you look at it.

So what he was knocked down...hell since when does that mean your not good?....

I never said he wasn't good, i just disagree that Ali could beat any Heavyweight in history easily. Like the creator of this thread was implying.

So i started the debate and brought up the fights where he was knocked down. Or fights where he struggled in to try and prove my point that Ali wasn't unbeatable, even though some people take it the wrong way and think i give Ali no credit

Ray Robinson was down dozens of times during his career and by much lesser guys but are you going to argue his status in history?

No one on this forum has seen the fights where Robinson was knocked down, and hardly anyone has seen any of his fights at Welterweight. So no one can comment or argue his status in history. We can only go on stats or what we have read. I certainly would love to see Robinson in his prime at Welterweight to see how good he was, but i can't so i can't really rate how good he was. The footage i've seen of Robinson he looked great but i have only seen very little footage of him so i can't really rate how great he was.

Well look at it like this how many threads on Mayweather or Calzaghe have been done were guys act as though they walk on water?.....it becomes a pointless arguement that no matter how many facts or how good of an arguement you put of to defend your opinion it just will not sink in or even if it has sunk in they will refuse to admit it