London will be overrun by 29 million Romanians and Bulgarians

[ryanman]

Our welfare system was set up to benefit ,people from our own Country who have contributed into
the system. We should not give out money housing, to none British immigrants weather EU citizens
or not, it is not sustainable giving hand out to people.
You pay in you take out simple, no if's or buts we have a housing shortage why open the borders
and let more people in, when we can't house the people we got madness.

Sorry to say this it's time we looked after our own citizens, not the Eu's I worry for my OWN
not for other part's of the Eu, stay put and keep your poverty with you my worry is our poor
people will be dragged down to there level of poverty.
We will be returning to the beginning of the last Century, were people lived in squalor it's coming
the Village were I live 10 to 15 people living in one house guess what my friends were are they
from the eastern block.
We are supposed to have evolved, but all I see us is devolving back into the dark ages.

Immigration has a net GROWTH effect on our economy.
Can you show me anything that disputes that?

So we won't be dragged down anywhere.

You guys are just repeating the same things even though facts show it to be wrong.

Immigrants have had a net growth effect on our economy since 2000.

As they did in the 50s, the 60s, the 80s.

Immigrants to the UK have never caused an increase in poverty levels. Ever.
If any of you can show one piece of evidence that they have then please share it.

[Dia bando]

Our welfare system was set up to benefit ,people from our own Country who have contributed into
the system. We should not give out money housing, to none British immigrants weather EU citizens
or not, it is not sustainable giving hand out to people.
You pay in you take out simple, no if's or buts we have a housing shortage why open the borders
and let more people in, when we can't house the people we got madness.

Sorry to say this it's time we looked after our own citizens, not the Eu's I worry for my OWN
not for other part's of the Eu, stay put and keep your poverty with you my worry is our poor
people will be dragged down to there level of poverty.
We will be returning to the beginning of the last Century, were people lived in squalor it's coming
the Village were I live 10 to 15 people living in one house guess what my friends were are they
from the eastern block.
We are supposed to have evolved, but all I see us is devolving back into the dark ages.

Immigration has a net GROWTH effect on our economy.
Can you show me anything that disputes that?

So we won't be dragged down anywhere.

You guys are just repeating the same things even though facts show it to be wrong.

Immigrants have had a net growth effect on our economy since 2000.

As they did in the 50s, the 60s, the 80s.

Immigrants to the UK have never caused an increase in poverty levels. Ever.
If any of you can show one piece of evidence that they have then please share it.

Ray the facts are I've seen it with my own eyes, not bull shit figures in reality the British worker
is suffering cheap labour has driven DOWN wages facts, putting British workers jobs and working
conditions at great risk. Cheap labour is no good for the average person in this Country, the only
winners are the employers who drive down wages, tell me how is that good for the economy.!!!

Putting British workers on the dole, and employing cheap emigrant workers what good does that do
none, I spend my money in the local economy. I don't send my money to any other Country all my
money I spend here.
Sorry you facts are as week as dish water, facts are the British worker gets Fucked over again, the rich want cheap labour, back to the day's on bended knees.
All the people I work with feel the same way, we are feed up with all the bull shit in reality we have
to put our own house in order, because there's no room this house is FULL to the brim.

[brocktonblockbust]

look what happened to amerikkka in the past 20 years----NAFTA, open borders, illegaL immigrant AMNESTY--- 7 guatemalans sleeping to one illegal attic studio, getting free medical treatment at the clinics, their girlfriends having ANCHOR BABIES, cannot deport them, politically incorrect, we Americans go down to the accounting offices in the towns we live in, give our CV in for an accountant or bookkeeper job, and they say its been filled........we find out an uneducated, non-English speaking Central American has got the job offer for $7.75 per hour. Bookkeepers in NJ normally earn $15-20 per hour. Americans cant afford to take the job for less than say $15 an hour, and these cunts are accepting it for 7.75 an hour-----because they pay $75 dollarsper month rent by packing into a little hallway or attic with 6 other Central Americans and dont have the big rent bills or utilities bills, etc.

you call that good for the economy? only if you are a dope is that good for the economy.

[Beanz]

You sound like Alex Jones. Hysterical.

[ryanman]

Our welfare system was set up to benefit ,people from our own Country who have contributed into
the system. We should not give out money housing, to none British immigrants weather EU citizens
or not, it is not sustainable giving hand out to people.
You pay in you take out simple, no if's or buts we have a housing shortage why open the borders
and let more people in, when we can't house the people we got madness.

Sorry to say this it's time we looked after our own citizens, not the Eu's I worry for my OWN
not for other part's of the Eu, stay put and keep your poverty with you my worry is our poor
people will be dragged down to there level of poverty.
We will be returning to the beginning of the last Century, were people lived in squalor it's coming
the Village were I live 10 to 15 people living in one house guess what my friends were are they
from the eastern block.
We are supposed to have evolved, but all I see us is devolving back into the dark ages.

Immigration has a net GROWTH effect on our economy.
Can you show me anything that disputes that?

So we won't be dragged down anywhere.

You guys are just repeating the same things even though facts show it to be wrong.

Immigrants have had a net growth effect on our economy since 2000.

As they did in the 50s, the 60s, the 80s.

Immigrants to the UK have never caused an increase in poverty levels. Ever.
If any of you can show one piece of evidence that they have then please share it.

Ray the facts are I've seen it with my own eyes, not bull shit figures in reality the British worker
is suffering cheap labour has driven DOWN wages facts, putting British workers jobs and working
conditions at great risk. Cheap labour is no good for the average person in this Country, the only
winners are the employers who drive down wages, tell me how is that good for the economy.!!!

Putting British workers on the dole, and employing cheap emigrant workers what good does that do
none, I spend my money in the local economy. I don't send my money to any other Country all my
money I spend here.
Sorry you facts are as week as dish water, facts are the British worker gets Fucked over again, the rich want cheap labour, back to the day's on bended knees.
All the people I work with feel the same way, we are feed up with all the bull shit in reality we have
to put our own house in order, because there's no room this house is FULL to the brim.

I do accept that different people's views on this will be shaped by their own experiences and outlook. Personally, I have never been remotely negatively affected by immigration (and by the way I'm from a very working class/bordering on poor family). Thats the truth for me, but I understand that individuals may have different experiences.

But Rich, for the love of god, stop calling me Ray!

[Gandalf]

I don't think there is anything wrong with what Brockton is saying. I don't dispute that immigration has had a positive effect on the economy either, but I do disagree with that growth being positive for the general population of the UK. It is growth in the pockets of medium businesses who want to hire on the cheap and granted it works for them....at a cost to a significant sector of the population. The truth is that low educated, relatively unskilled workers are the vast bulk of workers in any country, so to have them competing with millions of legal and millions more illegal migrants, is a rather heavy pill to swallow. It isn't a fair game. Romania for the English with a minimum wage of 88p an hour and Romanian a language spoken by few or England for Romanians where the minimum wage is over 6 pounds and in a world where everyone can speak some English. How does that equation ever amount to being game in an open labour market?

Liberalism sometimes wants its cake and to eat it too, and in this instance the liberals are usually people who are very comfortable and with the least to lose. The typical broadsheet reader has nothing to fear and thus liberalism at all costs is the majority view. Sometimes you have to say no to unchecked liberalism and this is just one of those issues.

[ryanman]

I don't think there is anything wrong with what Brockton is saying. I don't dispute that immigration has had a positive effect on the economy either, but I do disagree with that growth being positive for the general population of the UK. It is growth in the pockets of medium businesses who want to hire on the cheap and granted it works for them....at a cost to a significant sector of the population. The truth is that low educated, relatively unskilled workers are the vast bulk of workers in any country, so to have them competing with millions of legal and millions more illegal migrants, is a rather heavy pill to swallow. It isn't a fair game. Romania for the English with a minimum wage of 88p an hour and Romanian a language spoken by few or England for Romanians where the minimum wage is over 6 pounds and in a world where everyone can speak some English. How does that equation ever amount to being game in an open labour market?

Liberalism sometimes wants its cake and to eat it too, and in this instance the liberals are usually people who are very comfortable and with the least to lose. The typical broadsheet reader has nothing to fear and thus liberalism at all costs is the majority view. Sometimes you have to say no to unchecked liberalism and this is just one of those issues.

You make some interesting points there Miles and I'll have a think about them.
Certainly the issue of the educated, or 'broadsheet readers' being detached and thus scewing the view is one I have pondered but not really thought too deeply about. But I have wondered whether my current position may be akin to being in an ivory tower in regards to the impact that immigration can have. I've always felt immune from the ivory tower syndrome due to my upbringing but it's possible that I am just as susceptable as other liberal broadsheet types.
Not all growth being good is also an interesting point, but I'll have to look into that as I've always being a growth is good for all thinker.

Having said this, I just want to make it clear that I still vehemently disagree with some of the generalisations, stereotypes and fear mongering that surrounds this issue (not from you). I also do not consider anecdotes as proof of anything.

[Gandalf]

I don't think there is anything wrong with what Brockton is saying. I don't dispute that immigration has had a positive effect on the economy either, but I do disagree with that growth being positive for the general population of the UK. It is growth in the pockets of medium businesses who want to hire on the cheap and granted it works for them....at a cost to a significant sector of the population. The truth is that low educated, relatively unskilled workers are the vast bulk of workers in any country, so to have them competing with millions of legal and millions more illegal migrants, is a rather heavy pill to swallow. It isn't a fair game. Romania for the English with a minimum wage of 88p an hour and Romanian a language spoken by few or England for Romanians where the minimum wage is over 6 pounds and in a world where everyone can speak some English. How does that equation ever amount to being game in an open labour market?

Liberalism sometimes wants its cake and to eat it too, and in this instance the liberals are usually people who are very comfortable and with the least to lose. The typical broadsheet reader has nothing to fear and thus liberalism at all costs is the majority view. Sometimes you have to say no to unchecked liberalism and this is just one of those issues.

You make some interesting points there Miles and I'll have a think about them.
Certainly the issue of the educated, or 'broadsheet readers' being detached and thus scewing the view is one I have pondered but not really thought too deeply about. But I have wondered whether my current position may be akin to being in an ivory tower in regards to the impact that immigration can have. I've always felt immune from the ivory tower syndrome due to my upbringing but it's possible that I am just as susceptable as other liberal broadsheet types.
Not all growth being good is also an interesting point, but I'll have to look into that as I've always being a growth is good for all thinker.

Having said this, I just want to make it clear that I still vehemently disagree with some of the generalisations, stereotypes and fear mongering that surrounds this issue (not from you). I also do not consider anecdotes as proof of anything.

In terms of your final paragraph, me too. I'm a migrant myself and would be a complete hypocrite to be against immigration completely, which obviously I am not. I think the reason I think the way I do is largely because I AM a migrant and can see just how strange England has become whenever I come home. Of course I do compare and contrast here and there all the time, which is something I am always being told off for doing. My argument is always that if you have nothing to contrast with, then how can you have perspective?

I largely read broadsheets myself, though I do read the 'other' newpapers too. What I always do too is to skim the reader responses to articles. Despite rumours to the contrary, I do take a keen interest in what others are saying, and that to me is often the most revealing aspect. Articles in broadsheets are so pro immigration that it is sometimes quite strange reading them. On the whole responses are supportive, but there are voices akin to the criticisms of immigration here. They tend to get drowned out. The trashy papers have their agenda, but the voices in the responses are typically those with less ability to articulate and they are the vast majority.

Speaking from my own perspective, the media and academia (at least in terms of social sciences) are largely systems of propaganda. I can honestly say that all these years later, that I disagree with how terms like globalisation and multiculturalism were taught to me. They even caught onto the word multiculturalism here as an attempt to deal with a low birth rate. It meant allowing poor unmarried farmers the purchase of wives overseas from poor south east Asian countries. It isn't going to end well. This is a country that teaches people a pure blood ideology in schools, has images of Dokdo whilst you wait in line in a bank, and these kids are going to be raised and given a terrible time. I suppose my point is that there are ways and means to do things. Purchasing wives in order to breed is weak and allowing uncontrolled immigration is weak too.

My other point is that buzz words are abused by the powerful with questionable aims. Milton Friedman is an obvious case in point. Take anything he says and do the intermediate version of it (same with Marx) as that is how the real world functions. Thus limited immigration for useful jobs, check the credibility of Korean farmers and wives for compatibility etc.

My view on UK immigration is siding with unskilled, lesser educated English people over those from different countries. For me, it is left wing politics with a national bias. I just don't see how reducing the quality of life for ordinary English people helps Britain in the long run. It's a curious experiment, but I don't see how a claim of growth can be judged as success. In Britain a housing bubble and more people in low paid work is being deemed as growth. Is that really growth? I call that systemic abuse.

[Beanz]

Miles you would not recognise a fact if it jumped up and sunk its teeth into your bony arse.

[Dia bando]

Our welfare system was set up to benefit ,people from our own Country who have contributed into
the system. We should not give out money housing, to none British immigrants weather EU citizens
or not, it is not sustainable giving hand out to people.
You pay in you take out simple, no if's or buts we have a housing shortage why open the borders
and let more people in, when we can't house the people we got madness.

Sorry to say this it's time we looked after our own citizens, not the Eu's I worry for my OWN
not for other part's of the Eu, stay put and keep your poverty with you my worry is our poor
people will be dragged down to there level of poverty.
We will be returning to the beginning of the last Century, were people lived in squalor it's coming
the Village were I live 10 to 15 people living in one house guess what my friends were are they
from the eastern block.
We are supposed to have evolved, but all I see us is devolving back into the dark ages.

Immigration has a net GROWTH effect on our economy.
Can you show me anything that disputes that?

So we won't be dragged down anywhere.

You guys are just repeating the same things even though facts show it to be wrong.

Immigrants have had a net growth effect on our economy since 2000.

As they did in the 50s, the 60s, the 80s.

Immigrants to the UK have never caused an increase in poverty levels. Ever.
If any of you can show one piece of evidence that they have then please share it.

Ray the facts are I've seen it with my own eyes, not bull shit figures in reality the British worker
is suffering cheap labour has driven DOWN wages facts, putting British workers jobs and working
conditions at great risk. Cheap labour is no good for the average person in this Country, the only
winners are the employers who drive down wages, tell me how is that good for the economy.!!!

Putting British workers on the dole, and employing cheap emigrant workers what good does that do
none, I spend my money in the local economy. I don't send my money to any other Country all my
money I spend here.
Sorry you facts are as week as dish water, facts are the British worker gets Fucked over again, the rich want cheap labour, back to the day's on bended knees.
All the people I work with feel the same way, we are feed up with all the bull shit in reality we have
to put our own house in order, because there's no room this house is FULL to the brim.

I do accept that different people's views on this will be shaped by their own experiences and outlook. Personally, I have never been remotely negatively affected by immigration (and by the way I'm from a very working class/bordering on poor family). Thats the truth for me, but I understand that individuals may have different experiences.

But Rich, for the love of god, stop calling me Ray!

Sorry RAY.

[ryanman]

Our welfare system was set up to benefit ,people from our own Country who have contributed into
the system. We should not give out money housing, to none British immigrants weather EU citizens
or not, it is not sustainable giving hand out to people.
You pay in you take out simple, no if's or buts we have a housing shortage why open the borders
and let more people in, when we can't house the people we got madness.

Sorry to say this it's time we looked after our own citizens, not the Eu's I worry for my OWN
not for other part's of the Eu, stay put and keep your poverty with you my worry is our poor
people will be dragged down to there level of poverty.
We will be returning to the beginning of the last Century, were people lived in squalor it's coming
the Village were I live 10 to 15 people living in one house guess what my friends were are they
from the eastern block.
We are supposed to have evolved, but all I see us is devolving back into the dark ages.

Immigration has a net GROWTH effect on our economy.
Can you show me anything that disputes that?

So we won't be dragged down anywhere.

You guys are just repeating the same things even though facts show it to be wrong.

Immigrants have had a net growth effect on our economy since 2000.

As they did in the 50s, the 60s, the 80s.

Immigrants to the UK have never caused an increase in poverty levels. Ever.
If any of you can show one piece of evidence that they have then please share it.

Ray the facts are I've seen it with my own eyes, not bull shit figures in reality the British worker
is suffering cheap labour has driven DOWN wages facts, putting British workers jobs and working
conditions at great risk. Cheap labour is no good for the average person in this Country, the only
winners are the employers who drive down wages, tell me how is that good for the economy.!!!

Putting British workers on the dole, and employing cheap emigrant workers what good does that do
none, I spend my money in the local economy. I don't send my money to any other Country all my
money I spend here.
Sorry you facts are as week as dish water, facts are the British worker gets Fucked over again, the rich want cheap labour, back to the day's on bended knees.
All the people I work with feel the same way, we are feed up with all the bull shit in reality we have
to put our own house in order, because there's no room this house is FULL to the brim.

I do accept that different people's views on this will be shaped by their own experiences and outlook. Personally, I have never been remotely negatively affected by immigration (and by the way I'm from a very working class/bordering on poor family). Thats the truth for me, but I understand that individuals may have different experiences.

But Rich, for the love of god, stop calling me Ray!

Sorry RAY.

No problem Rach

[Gandalf]

Miles you would not recognise a fact if it jumped up and sunk its teeth into your bony arse.

Snide comments aside, I don't see what facts I am supposed to be missing. Would you care to enlighten us all because quite frankly, I don't see nor understand the case for allowing unfair labour markets to exist. Liberalism at all costs is not desirable. It is extremism and in the case of a nation state, can cause immense harm.

The levels of unrest and anger have been fermenting for years and people are told, that it is wrong to question why half the checkout counter people are no longer English, you are supposed to just accept that this is progress. Nobody begrudges different people working as everybody needs to work, but I think people are angry about how it was done in a very shady way and now that the extent of the change is so apparent, the poor in particular are wondering why on earth they themselves are struggling to make a living. They have been sold down the river, and they are right to think that way. Why are there jobs advertised in Romania which they don't even bother to advertise in the UK? Is that not questionable? It's a corporatist agenda to get labour as cheaply as possible. It's labour as an unquestioning, do as you are told, cheap, factor of production.

We are growing again, they tell you! It's disturbing to say the least. At what cost? Ordinary people haven't seen wages go up in half a decade, disparities in wealth are at massive levels, but hey house prices are going up and more low paying jobs! We are growing, keep on repeating it, and it must be true. Thus bills go up, transport goes up, savings rates almost nil in real terms, rents go up, but wages stagnate. Nothing to see here, we are growing! Utter madness.

[Beanz]

Half the checkout counter? I have only ever met one foreign checkout worker and she was Spanish. 1. The entire population of Romania and Bulgaria? All the trains and planes are already booked up and full said Farage, Lies."Oh but this is only the start " you say. What a doom monger you are. Ryanman has clearly studied the issue in depth and you have dismissed his expertise in favour of uncollaborated anecdotes. It is not snide to point out your aversion to facts it is honesty.Using immigrants as a scapegoat has long been the way of the privileged few to keep the heat of themselves, just as despite benefit fraud only accounting for 0.7% of expenditure the unemployed are attacked by the Tories along with the disabled as though they are the reason the working poor are so skint. Smoke and mirrors. Huge corporations avoiding tax, corrupt MPs and quangoes, inept and greedy banks bailed out by tax payers and you are worried about hard working immigrants or people living in cardboard boxes? Shame on you.

[Dia bando]

Half the checkout counter? I have only ever met one foreign checkout worker and she was Spanish. 1. The entire population of Romania and Bulgaria? All the trains and planes are already booked up and full said Farage, Lies."Oh but this is only the start " you say. What a doom monger you are. Ryanman has clearly studied the issue in depth and you have dismissed his expertise in favour of uncollaborated anecdotes. It is not snide to point out your aversion to facts it is honesty.Using immigrants as a scapegoat has long been the way of the privileged few to keep the heat of themselves, just as despite benefit fraud only accounting for 0.7% of expenditure the unemployed are attacked by the Tories along with the disabled as though they are the reason the working poor are so skint. Smoke and mirrors. Huge corporations avoiding tax, corrupt MPs and quangoes, inept and greedy banks bailed out by tax payers and you are worried about hard working immigrants or people living in cardboard boxes? Shame on you.

When you have more than ample amount of unskilled labour, why do we need more,! we have a
housing problem were I live there are few houses, to be had.
People move to better themselves, trouble is we have very little to offer, we have horrendous cut's
wage cut's etc, the roads are not paved with gold, were I live they are full of pot holes.!

The eastern block have large amounts of poverty, mostly down to communism remember years
of spending on the arms race. Theses Country need growth, and good economy's people moving to other Country's leave a void as Poland have found out they are places they are short of labour.!
Were I live we have suffered, we have about 10.000 poles this put's a strain on employment for
the locals, housing etc. It's not much fun when the locals, have been on the housing list for years
and a eastern block family turn up, and get social housing straight away, this causes resentment.

Social housing is at breaking point, there are no jobs and we are adding to the problem just letting
more poor unskilled homeless people in, reality is you have to see to your own FIRST.
I don't hate anyone, there is a old saying if you have a 2lbs bag of sugar, you CAN'T put 3lbs in it
true fact. No room no Jobs people living on the streets.!

[Dark Lord Al]

All I can say on the matter is you cant have it both ways , you cant say people are wrong to castigate all immigrants , then go off the fantasy that they will all bring prosper.
You also have to accept , if people don't want any more immigrants they have a right to say. Also I don't remember anyone here saying that the mass migration would happen overnight , if an immigrant stays here and lands benefits I wonder if all his family will follow in time ?
It a difficult issue for sure but as much as I respect the views of Beanz and others , I really do not agree with you at all , I for one just don't see the advantage of more people when as Rich says we already have a housing and job shortage , I do also understand many social issues need to be addressed to sort out the countries problems not just immigration.