London will be overrun by 29 million Romanians and Bulgarians

[Gandalf]

Half the checkout counter? I have only ever met one foreign checkout worker and she was Spanish. 1. The entire population of Romania and Bulgaria? All the trains and planes are already booked up and full said Farage, Lies."Oh but this is only the start " you say. What a doom monger you are. Ryanman has clearly studied the issue in depth and you have dismissed his expertise in favour of uncollaborated anecdotes. It is not snide to point out your aversion to facts it is honesty.Using immigrants as a scapegoat has long been the way of the privileged few to keep the heat of themselves, just as despite benefit fraud only accounting for 0.7% of expenditure the unemployed are attacked by the Tories along with the disabled as though they are the reason the working poor are so skint. Smoke and mirrors. Huge corporations avoiding tax, corrupt MPs and quangoes, inept and greedy banks bailed out by tax payers and you are worried about hard working immigrants or people living in cardboard boxes? Shame on you.

Go to London or any major city and check yourself into a hotel. You will be lucky to find anyone who is English. From the check in, to the cleaner, to the bar tender, you will be lucky to find a genuine English person.

You seem to have a very obsessive either/or attitude on this entire issue and quite frankly it smells decidedly iffy. Since when have I just dimissed anything Ryan has said? I have acknowledged elements of what he has said and then added further perspective. Unchecked immigration is NOT a good thing and more need to get away from the broadsheet agenda and it is quite obviously an agenda as nothing negative can be spoken about immigration. They clearly have an either/or attittude to it and on the flip side so do the tabloids, but arguing quite the opposite. What I have actually been saying is that you need CONTROLLED immigration. This isn't a stew where you can throw in millions of people. If it doesn't have balance then it will taste horrible. Immigration and society is the same. If it isn't done appropriately, then many will end up with a sour taste in the mouth, as indeed, appears to have become the case.

You also seem to be making a bizarre case that I ignore the massive levels of corruption in the British political system and would instead rather castigate immigrants. Bit of a strawman argument there and what an offensive crock of shit too. How many posts have I made over the years condemning British (and of course American) politics? I don't think I even need to respond to such a stupid argument. 'You blame the immigrants and the poor, but excuse the bankers'. You are having a laugh, right?

Also, don't forget that it is freezing cold in the UK and many of the migrants will be waiting until the somewhat eccentric tabloids have cooled down a little. How about discussing numbers a year down the line, and of course the government will not have a clue what the real numbers are, as they are the ones who are too busy attacking the poor of the UK. The poor of the UK who are also the victims of a whatever government is in place and both of whom started the agenda of uncontrolled immigration.

[Gandalf]

Actually, sorry for using some bad words in the prior post. I just get a bit irrate when words are being put in my mouth and words that are in no way a reflection of who or what I am.

[walrus]

Actually, sorry for using some bad words in the prior post. I just get a bit irrate when words are being put in my mouth and words that are in no way a reflection of who or what I am.

No problem Gandalf, it's refreshing to see you trashing the UK. Does this mean the US isn't bad anymore.

[Gandalf]

Actually, sorry for using some bad words in the prior post. I just get a bit irrate when words are being put in my mouth and words that are in no way a reflection of who or what I am.

No problem Gandalf, it's refreshing to see you trashing the UK. Does this mean the US isn't bad anymore.

If we are talking about the US political system and its approach to domestic and foreign affairs, it is where it always is until serious reform takes place. However, just as I have no problems with ordinary Americans who are doing the best they can in a bad situation, I also feel the same way about ordinary English people too.

I think society is evolving in a bad way and immigration needs to be tightly controlled. The minimum wage needs to be increased so that it becomes a living wage. Then if native scroungers also won't work, then you are justified in taking away their benefits. They then also cannot blame migrants for stealing jobs etc. Being a socialist of a traditional kind I would also take away the properties of people who own multiple properties (at a decent rate of course) and socialise housing. It is a massive crime that housing benefit is being used to line the pockets of people who are getting rich off of property that should never have been private. Then I would nationalise the utilities, do away with Blair bullshit academies, nationalise public transportation, go to town on the banks and maybe ban a few of them, corporations will be paying their hefty corporate taxes, no excuses for any. My program will clean the rot from top to bottom and if it means not growing as fast as possible (heaven forbid), then threaten to leave my shores, and duly do so. Pay your corporate taxes or fuck off.

Then it will be time to deal with problem areas where people seem to think doing nothing is valid. You are entitled to do nothing, but not at the expense of the taxpayer. Only a very few people cannot actually do anything. Few are limbless AND lacking mental facilities. That is money that people have worked hard for and it should be appreciated. Not just funnelled into endless streams of housing benefit and the not yet retired to live as though they are retired. Are there really so many more disabled people than 15 years ago? It's remarkable. I don't blame them though as working doesn't pay and that is why serious social reconstruction is neccessary. Most CAN and SHOULD contribute something. Child benefit is another thing that should go. Support for one child, but anymore, is a CHOICE that YOU made. Sure the apparatus is there to help you. Cheap transport, rent, bills etc, but with that you should use YOUR newly found resources MATURELY and take RESPONSIBILITY. My reforms can only go so far. The benefits system is largely a joke and only very sick people should need them.

Only then and after the dust is settled would I ever consider allowing immigration to become part of the public agenda and it should be an agenda levelled with the British people at all times and ultimately if it is to expand, it will be with their consent. No longer will the corporates control Britain as they have done for 30 years of horrendous assault.

[Gandalf]

Apologies again, I stated in my utopian rant that corporations should be paying hefty corporate taxes, but considering that they must provide a living wage, I'm not entirely sure that would be fair on them either, so would have to consider that policy with my cabinet. Ryanman is my deputy and he is usually able to provide assistance on matters of this kind. I have potentially warped the thread with that rant which as far as threads go is fairly on topic.

[brocktonblockbust]

what has Miles said that is wrong? It seems the sport to just lambast him but he has said nothing wrong. I met no Americans when I went into American hotels. Mexicans, Polish, Guatemalans, El Salvadoreans, Venezuelans and Haitians I met, met, met, and they couldnt ever understand basic English.

[Gandalf]

what has Miles said that is wrong? It seems the sport to just lambast him but he has said nothing wrong. I met no Americans when I went into American hotels. Mexicans, Polish, Guatemalans, El Salvadoreans, Venezuelans and Haitians I met, met, met, and they couldnt ever understand basic English.

Nothing that I say is wrong. It is good sport to attack me, and in the course of a debate I see why it is. The easiest way to annoy me is to anger me with spurious insults and then I focus on the insults and the argument is deflected. It's an attempt to avoid the truth and I see the strategy. Or as seen in recent posts, the daft attempts to say that I blame immigrants instead of banks. I have never done such a thing.

The important thing for me to do is to avoid the attempts at deflection and stay on course. Nothing I have said is in the minority. Most of you are on my side of the equation and even Ryan who Greenbeanz thinks I have ignored, concedes that I have made some observable points.

There is only one ostrich with his neck in the sand and that is Greenbeanz and to be honest I don't fully know why.

[Beanz]

what has Miles said that is wrong? It seems the sport to just lambast him but he has said nothing wrong. I met no Americans when I went into American hotels. Mexicans, Polish, Guatemalans, El Salvadoreans, Venezuelans and Haitians I met, met, met, and they couldnt ever understand basic English.

Nothing that I say is wrong.. It is good sport to attack me, and in the course of a debate I see why it is. The easiest way to annoy me is to anger me with spurious insults and then I focus on the insults and the argument is deflected. It's an attempt to avoid the truth and I see the strategy. Or as seen in recent posts, the daft attempts to say that I blame immigrants instead of banks. I have never done such a thing.

The important thing for me to do is to avoid the attempts at deflection and stay on course. Nothing I have said is in the minority. Most of you are on my side of the equation and even Ryan who Greenbeanz thinks I have ignored, concedes that I have made some observable points.

There is only one ostrich with his neck in the sand and that is Greenbeanz and to be honest I don't fully know why.

Nice to see you are both interested in a nice balanced rational discussion and have not already made your minds up.

[Beanz]

Actually, sorry for using some bad words in the prior post. I just get a bit irrate when words are being put in my mouth and words that are in no way a reflection of who or what I am.

No problem Gandalf, it's refreshing to see you trashing the UK. Does this mean the US isn't bad anymore.

If we are talking about the US political system and its approach to domestic and foreign affairs, it is where it always is until serious reform takes place. However, just as I have no problems with ordinary Americans who are doing the best they can in a bad situation, I also feel the same way about ordinary English people too.

I think society is evolving in a bad way and immigration needs to be tightly controlled. The minimum wage needs to be increased so that it becomes a living wage. Then if native scroungers also won't work, then you are justified in taking away their benefits. They then also cannot blame migrants for stealing jobs etc. Being a socialist of a traditional kind I would also take away the properties of people who own multiple properties (at a decent rate of course) and socialise housing. It is a massive crime that housing benefit is being used to line the pockets of people who are getting rich off of property that should never have been private. Then I would nationalise the utilities, do away with Blair bullshit academies, nationalise public transportation, go to town on the banks and maybe ban a few of them, corporations will be paying their hefty corporate taxes, no excuses for any. My program will clean the rot from top to bottom and if it means not growing as fast as possible (heaven forbid), then threaten to leave my shores, and duly do so. Pay your corporate taxes or fuck off.

Then it will be time to deal with problem areas where people seem to think doing nothing is valid. You are entitled to do nothing, but not at the expense of the taxpayer. Only a very few people cannot actually do anything. Few are limbless AND lacking mental facilities. That is money that people have worked hard for and it should be appreciated. Not just funnelled into endless streams of housing benefit and the not yet retired to live as though they are retired. Are there really so many more disabled people than 15 years ago? It's remarkable. I don't blame them though as working doesn't pay and that is why serious social reconstruction is neccessary. Most CAN and SHOULD contribute something. Child benefit is another thing that should go. Support for one child, but anymore, is a CHOICE that YOU made. Sure the apparatus is there to help you. Cheap transport, rent, bills etc, but with that you should use YOUR newly found resources MATURELY and take RESPONSIBILITY. My reforms can only go so far. The benefits system is largely a joke and only very sick people should need them.

Only then and after the dust is settled would I ever consider allowing immigration to become part of the public agenda and it should be an agenda levelled with the British people at all times and ultimately if it is to expand, it will be with their consent. No longer will the corporates control Britain as they have done for 30 years of horrendous assault.

You sound like Iain Duncan Smith the enemy of every socialist ever born. It is quite obvious that you have no idea what it is like to live in the UK these last few years with your ill informed piss poor excuse for an argument You are totally full of shit Miles. It is not even funny any more. "...being a socialist of a traditional kind" ? What kind is that ? the fantasy kind? the posing dandy kind ? the hypocritical kind? the " I am happy to share the wealth as long as it's not my wealth and not with foreigners kind" ? You are virtually the dictionary definition of "Elitist". "My reforms can only go so far." Listen to yourself man, getting up on your pulpit, completely and utterly devoid of any empathy, dismissing large swathes of the population because you have decided that they are not that disabled, or that they are selfish by having children or are not entitled to own more than one property however hard they worked for it.

You are right on one thing though, the benefits system is a joke, but not for the reasons you think.

[Beanz]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...britain-crisis



Scapegoating migrants for Britain's crisis will damage us all

The Tories and Ukip are vying to terrify the public about Romanians and Bulgarians. What's needed is protection at work and a crash housing programme

[brocktonblockbust]

Scapegoating migrants for Britain's crisis will damage us all | Seumas Milne | Comment is free | The Guardian



Scapegoating migrants for Britain's crisis will damage us all

The Tories and Ukip are vying to terrify the public about Romanians and Bulgarians. What's needed is protection at work and a crash housing programme

using an op-ed piece will not bolster the argument. i can find op-eds that say the opposite. Beanz your own points were better than the ones made here. Just like mine are better than Alex Jones'. Way better.

[Gandalf]

Actually, sorry for using some bad words in the prior post. I just get a bit irrate when words are being put in my mouth and words that are in no way a reflection of who or what I am.

No problem Gandalf, it's refreshing to see you trashing the UK. Does this mean the US isn't bad anymore.

If we are talking about the US political system and its approach to domestic and foreign affairs, it is where it always is until serious reform takes place. However, just as I have no problems with ordinary Americans who are doing the best they can in a bad situation, I also feel the same way about ordinary English people too.

I think society is evolving in a bad way and immigration needs to be tightly controlled. The minimum wage needs to be increased so that it becomes a living wage. Then if native scroungers also won't work, then you are justified in taking away their benefits. They then also cannot blame migrants for stealing jobs etc. Being a socialist of a traditional kind I would also take away the properties of people who own multiple properties (at a decent rate of course) and socialise housing. It is a massive crime that housing benefit is being used to line the pockets of people who are getting rich off of property that should never have been private. Then I would nationalise the utilities, do away with Blair bullshit academies, nationalise public transportation, go to town on the banks and maybe ban a few of them, corporations will be paying their hefty corporate taxes, no excuses for any. My program will clean the rot from top to bottom and if it means not growing as fast as possible (heaven forbid), then threaten to leave my shores, and duly do so. Pay your corporate taxes or fuck off.

Then it will be time to deal with problem areas where people seem to think doing nothing is valid. You are entitled to do nothing, but not at the expense of the taxpayer. Only a very few people cannot actually do anything. Few are limbless AND lacking mental facilities. That is money that people have worked hard for and it should be appreciated. Not just funnelled into endless streams of housing benefit and the not yet retired to live as though they are retired. Are there really so many more disabled people than 15 years ago? It's remarkable. I don't blame them though as working doesn't pay and that is why serious social reconstruction is neccessary. Most CAN and SHOULD contribute something. Child benefit is another thing that should go. Support for one child, but anymore, is a CHOICE that YOU made. Sure the apparatus is there to help you. Cheap transport, rent, bills etc, but with that you should use YOUR newly found resources MATURELY and take RESPONSIBILITY. My reforms can only go so far. The benefits system is largely a joke and only very sick people should need them.

Only then and after the dust is settled would I ever consider allowing immigration to become part of the public agenda and it should be an agenda levelled with the British people at all times and ultimately if it is to expand, it will be with their consent. No longer will the corporates control Britain as they have done for 30 years of horrendous assault.

You sound like Iain Duncan Smith the enemy of every socialist ever born. It is quite obvious that you have no idea what it is like to live in the UK these last few years with your ill informed piss poor excuse for an argument You are totally full of shit Miles. It is not even funny any more. "...being a socialist of a traditional kind" ? What kind is that ? the fantasy kind? the posing dandy kind ? the hypocritical kind? the " I am happy to share the wealth as long as it's not my wealth and not with foreigners kind" ? You are virtually the dictionary definition of "Elitist". "My reforms can only go so far." Listen to yourself man, getting up on your pulpit, completely and utterly devoid of any empathy, dismissing large swathes of the population because you have decided that they are not that disabled, or that they are selfish by having children or are not entitled to own more than one property however hard they worked for it.

You are right on one thing though, the benefits system is a joke, but not for the reasons you think.

There is nothing hypocritical in any of what I say. I mean socialist as in the kind of socialist as formerly evidenced by a Labour Party that did actually represent Labour. I think sometimes people forget the meaning of the word Labour. Labour means to work and the socialism is to make work more tolerable for all and for society to help facilitate this thing called society.

Reforms such as mass scale nationalisation are to take away excessive private profiteering and to give people things they need directly. Hospitals and education should be free. Others such as utilities, transport, accomodation should be affordable. Thus with a living wage people can take home enough, spend their money on the neccessities and then be encouraged to be sensible with the rest. Oh, and of course a truly redistributive tax system to pay for it.

What is there about such a scheme that you dislike? It is pretty socialist as far as socialism goes. Are you American? Do you not understand the term having lived in England under 30 years of propaganda and abuse?

When it comes to disability and benefits, I did some research on this and technically if I was living in the UK, I could just claim disability allowance. Based on a moody disposition and an occasional fear of public speaking, I could con my way into getting something for nothing. Looking at the range of illnesses, many of these are no reason why you couldn't be doing a job appropriate to your particular needs. Since Blair the numbers of people on these benefits has grown exponentially. They are not disabled, they can do work of some kind. Look at the Benefits Street show, these people are physically able to work, but their mentality is 'Why should I?'. Once you have the living wage, then you have no excuses any more. These people have no appreciation of where their money comes from, it is an entitlement attitude. Someone else worked hard for that money to be deducted and it should be going to schools, fixing roads, etc, and not subsidising some fatty and her do nothing attitude and meanwhile she is smoking like a chimney.

In that sense I can see why some prefer immigrants. They will work hard. Before allowing that, I would like to see a serious attempt at fixing Britain itself as that was allowed to slip for over 20 years as Britain tried to sweep it under the rug. Then, if the societal revolution doesn't work, then you consider immigration. But what you currently see in the UK is a tragedy and a disaster. Just taking away benefits is not enough and is unfair. I say provide a living wage and that means maybe 18,000 pounds a year and a 4 day working week and I think gradually people will start to see that it makes sense to make an effort. On UK minimum wage and rent and bill costs it's no wonder some people do lose hope. If you can give back a little self respect then progress is made.

Your attitude is basically, say nothing, question nothing, don't be rude and criticise immigration or benefits. It's a futile and dead end stance.

[Beanz]

Your attitude is basically, say nothing, question nothing, don't be rude and criticise immigration or benefits. It's a futile and dead end stance.

This is a completely fabricated position that you have stooped to inventing because you will not even grant another human being the basic politeness of actually reading any of their posts. A very silly man with a nasty self serving attitude called Nigel Farrage spouts some groundless hateful bile in order to bellow some air into the furnace and start a British civil war. This is a politician who draws a wage for representing Britain in the Europe whilst never actually attending sessions in which he could stand up for British interests be they in fishing rights, farmers subsidies or anything that does not fit his own personal agenda. Brockton then starts a thread with a title that repeats his (Farrage's) distorted and hate filled lies claiming that

"London will be overrun by 29 million Romanians and Bulgarians"

In the UK the ruling Conservative party has after attacking the disabled and unemployed now decided that they will target the immigrant population in order to claw back some votes from dissident Tories who have deflected to UKIP. Neither yourself or Brockton seem remotely aware of how manipulated and blinded you both have been by an assertion that is neither true nor very edifying. People start generalising and lumping in legal with illegal immigration, criminals with hard working and often skilled migrants and conveniently ignoring the huge amount of British migrants working and living throughout Europe. Some of whom are indeed living on Benefits.




How fucking dare you suggest that I would sit back and question nothing. Both yourself and Brockton have tried to turn the whole thread around and suggest that I am joining in with the majority and attacking you, despite myself and Ryanman being part of the minority in this thread urging caution and a more reasonable and realistic assessment of the situation. I know from experience how dangerous the propaganda that UKIP is and what it can do to ferment hated and violence toward minorities. In Italy and the Uk I have marched with the anti nazi league and others because the minority of far right idealists will exploit situations in order to propagate violence.

How can you go on about the plight of the Native Americans and the injustices and inequities of the British Empire and then join in with Brocktons callous dismissal of whole ethnic groups as less than people ? Do you actually really care or are you merely posing and trying to score an idealogical victory?

You both assume an awful lot and would do well to hold your tongues before putting words into the mouths of others and imagining that you can so easily know what somebody else's opinions are.

I do not believe in multiculturalism in which migrants isolate themselves from the country and the population within which they reside. And yet there are many British abroad who despite being in a country for years can not speak the language fluently and isolate themselves from their compatriots, so arrogant have they become. If I go to Catalan I want to enjoy Catalan culture, food, art and language and the same in Breton- Breton customs and music, food and wine or Basque - etc regions. Migrants who come here to work should contribute to society and I have never suggested anything different. Those here for the long term should integrate themselves into British society and contribute as they largely do.

Migrants are LESS likely to claim benefits and yet Farage and the Tories would like you to believe otherwise. Conservatives have stopped building council houses but they do not want you to blame them, they would rather the immigrants and unemployed take the flac. And then you try and lecture me on socialism. Have you lived in a commune? a squat? a kibbutz? a work camp? a voluntary socialist library?

Studying politics and living them are two entirely different things.

I am at heart an Internationalist. This means I am both proud to be English whilst not believing that this makes me innately better than any other nationality or ethnicity. I do not think for one minute that migration should be completely without temper or control but I also do not subscribe to the panic that Farage the cunt is intent on fostering. I will not resort to your lazy isms or to calling someone "these people" and I will not dismiss the Italians as thieves and pick pockets or the Romanians as Romani or the Romani as all being park shitting scum.

Your idea of a living wage, a four day week and an income of £18 000 a year will not happen but I did find this today. It is now too late to vote

European Citizens' Initiative for an Unconditional Basic Income (UBI) | #basicincome

Here is why thinking outside the box is sometimes the right thing to do.

https://decorrespondent.nl/541/why-we-should-give-free-money-to-everyone/20798745-cb9fbb39

[Gandalf]

An extimated 5 million came in in a decade and your chart shows far fewer leaving. It is hardly making the case that the arrangment is fair and working. English employment has been shown to have gone down and foreign employment has risen exponentially. Just not a fair balance of labour income and outcome, is it really.

[Beanz]

An extimated 5 million came in in a decade and your chart shows far fewer leaving. It is hardly making the case that the arrangment is fair and working. English employment has been shown to have gone down and foreign employment has risen exponentially. Just not a fair balance of labour income and outcome, is it really.

Farage's predicted 29 Million turns out to be two dozen at present, hardly a fair or balanced prediction on which the thread is based would you not agree ?

UK immigration: only two dozen Romanians have arrived since January 1, says ambassador - Telegraph