60's ALI: there is no HW great that could have beaten him.

[Punisher136]

The ali from '66 beats anybody. At that point in his career his speed and movement were at their absolute peak. And he had a chin so it's not a matter of catching him with a lucky punch, it's a matter of consistantly connecting and nobody throughout the history of the heavyweight division had the necessary package of speed (both with punches and ring movement), skill, or stamina (many had any two of the three but never all three) to keep enough pressure on him to beat him.

I got a dvd for christmas which lists the top 10 heavyweights of all time according to burt sugar (a very good espn ringside dvd with old fight footage for dempsey and even jack johnson). Holmes was 10th which made me an instant fan of the dvd. He gave louis the nod over ali and when confronted with larry's (who was present so they could tell him he was number 10 ) view point of louis would never catch ali, burt said that head to head matchups were not part of his criteria. And he put 25 title defenses (22 by ko) ahead of ali's resume. He also admitted he may have had a bias seeing as louis was his hero growing up.

So if you're comparing in a head-to-head mtach up to determine hypothetical greatness, ali has to be the favorite but if you want to compare greatness on the scale of just what each guy did in his era, there's room for debate there.

Bert Sugar had Holmes at number 10 or did i misread that ?? if he did then that is very disappointing

ues holmes was 10th. ali was second and i believe ezzard charles was in the top 5

[undefeated]

The ali from '66 beats anybody. At that point in his career his speed and movement were at their absolute peak. And he had a chin so it's not a matter of catching him with a lucky punch, it's a matter of consistantly connecting and nobody throughout the history of the heavyweight division had the necessary package of speed (both with punches and ring movement), skill, or stamina (many had any two of the three but never all three) to keep enough pressure on him to beat him.

I got a dvd for christmas which lists the top 10 heavyweights of all time according to burt sugar (a very good espn ringside dvd with old fight footage for dempsey and even jack johnson). Holmes was 10th which made me an instant fan of the dvd. He gave louis the nod over ali and when confronted with larry's (who was present so they could tell him he was number 10 ) view point of louis would never catch ali, burt said that head to head matchups were not part of his criteria. And he put 25 title defenses (22 by ko) ahead of ali's resume. He also admitted he may have had a bias seeing as louis was his hero growing up.

So if you're comparing in a head-to-head mtach up to determine hypothetical greatness, ali has to be the favorite but if you want to compare greatness on the scale of just what each guy did in his era, there's room for debate there.

Bert Sugar had Holmes at number 10 or did i misread that ?? if he did then that is very disappointing

ues holmes was 10th. ali was second and i believe ezzard charles was in the top 5

i saw that--i believe charles was 8--holmes def 10--holmes wasnt 2 happy about that

[Mr140]

I can not belive how low some people rate Holmes he is at teh top with Ali and Louis man he gets no respect some times.

[donnydarkoIRL]

Holmes is indeed at top ten with Ali.
However, I feel the reason the general boxing public fails to fully acknowledge his achievements is because he just couldn't achieve the popularity that the likes of Ali, Louis and Marciano did. In their era's each guy transcended boxing and reached the fans on a personal level. Although he was a nice guy Larry lacked the charisma that Ali had, the (racially motivated) pride in Louis or the All American love Marciano enjoyed.
But similarly to another post I made today (on PBF) Homes deserves to be remembered for his talent in the ring, his skills and abilities and his fighting courage rather than his personality and life outside the ring.

The sport is Boxing, let's remeber the Boxing he did.

[Trainer Monkey]

Holmes is indeed at top ten with Ali.
However, I feel the reason the general boxing public fails to fully acknowledge his achievements is because he just couldn't achieve the popularity that the likes of Ali, Louis and Marciano did. In their era's each guy transcended boxing and reached the fans on a personal level. Although he was a nice guy Larry lacked the charisma that Ali had, the (racially motivated) pride in Louis or the All American love Marciano enjoyed.
But similarly to another post I made today (on PBF) Homes deserves to be remembered for his talent in the ring, his skills and abilities and his fighting courage rather than his personality and life outside the ring.

The sport is Boxing, let's remeber the Boxing he did.

Larry unfortunatly was a combination of wrong fighter at the wrongt time,and a victim of passive racism
First off he comes in right at the end of an era when every fighter was a fighter+,Foreman preached,Norton acted,Frazier sang,Ali was well Ali
Holmes just hit people
But on top of it,it wasnt the Ali fight nobody forgave Holmes for,it was him whipping the great white hype Cooney nobody forgave him for. When he beat 7 kinds of hell out of Tex Cobb,all Sports Illustrated could talk about was how valiant Tex was for taking the punishment

[donnydarkoIRL]

CC Monkey I'm agreed.

[Bomp]

He was known as "the greatest" for a reason...

Lewis - Never liked him, too boring and didnt like getting hit - fought passed prime fighters i.e tyson, holyfield. Tyson would have whooped him in his prime. (lewis not ali)

So you're blaming Lewis for the fact that those fight didn't come off when the opponents were younger

[undefeated]

Holmes is indeed at top ten with Ali.
However, I feel the reason the general boxing public fails to fully acknowledge his achievements is because he just couldn't achieve the popularity that the likes of Ali, Louis and Marciano did. In their era's each guy transcended boxing and reached the fans on a personal level. Although he was a nice guy Larry lacked the charisma that Ali had, the (racially motivated) pride in Louis or the All American love Marciano enjoyed.
But similarly to another post I made today (on PBF) Homes deserves to be remembered for his talent in the ring, his skills and abilities and his fighting courage rather than his personality and life outside the ring.

The sport is Boxing, let's remeber the Boxing he did.

Larry unfortunatly was a combination of wrong fighter at the wrongt time,and a victim of passive racism
First off he comes in right at the end of an era when every fighter was a fighter+,Foreman preached,Norton acted,Frazier sang,Ali was well Ali
Holmes just hit people
But on top of it,it wasnt the Ali fight nobody forgave Holmes for,it was him whipping the great white hype Cooney nobody forgave him for. When he beat 7 kinds of hell out of Tex Cobb,all Sports Illustrated could talk about was how valiant Tex was for taking the punishment

holmes was 1 of the greatest--but it seemed he tried 2b like ali. always running off at the mouth--very close fighting styles--it was as if he tried 2b ali. but without the same opposition and charisma 2 pull it off -he is looked at as a "poor mans ali"--if he was humble and quit he could have been seen as his own instead of just in the shadow of ali

[Slowmotion426]

How many fights did Ali lose? HE SUCKED!!!

[Trainer Monkey]

Holmes is indeed at top ten with Ali.
However, I feel the reason the general boxing public fails to fully acknowledge his achievements is because he just couldn't achieve the popularity that the likes of Ali, Louis and Marciano did. In their era's each guy transcended boxing and reached the fans on a personal level. Although he was a nice guy Larry lacked the charisma that Ali had, the (racially motivated) pride in Louis or the All American love Marciano enjoyed.
But similarly to another post I made today (on PBF) Homes deserves to be remembered for his talent in the ring, his skills and abilities and his fighting courage rather than his personality and life outside the ring.

The sport is Boxing, let's remeber the Boxing he did.

Larry unfortunatly was a combination of wrong fighter at the wrongt time,and a victim of passive racism
First off he comes in right at the end of an era when every fighter was a fighter+,Foreman preached,Norton acted,Frazier sang,Ali was well Ali
Holmes just hit people
But on top of it,it wasnt the Ali fight nobody forgave Holmes for,it was him whipping the great white hype Cooney nobody forgave him for. When he beat 7 kinds of hell out of Tex Cobb,all Sports Illustrated could talk about was how valiant Tex was for taking the punishment

holmes was 1 of the greatest--but it seemed he tried 2b like ali. always running off at the mouth--very close fighting styles--it was as if he tried 2b ali. but without the same opposition and charisma 2 pull it off -he is looked at as a "poor mans ali"--if he was humble and quit he could have been seen as his own instead of just in the shadow of ali

Interesting youd say that,considering Holmes really got his start as Ali's sparring partner
Oh interesting truism of the day from somebody from the state
Whats commonly referrerd to as "Ali's Pocono Training Camp",isnt anywhere near the Poconos,its alot closer to Reading then it is to Slatington

[Trainer Monkey]

How many fights did Ali lose? HE SUCKED!!!

Please help the moron to the door,someone

[donnydarkoIRL]

How many fights did Ali lose? HE SUCKED!!!

Ali lost to Frazier Norton Spinks Holmes and Berbick.
Nothing much to be ashamed of there.

You get a Sad Click for your poor posting.

[ICB]

Holmes is indeed at top ten with Ali.
However, I feel the reason the general boxing public fails to fully acknowledge his achievements is because he just couldn't achieve the popularity that the likes of Ali, Louis and Marciano did. In their era's each guy transcended boxing and reached the fans on a personal level. Although he was a nice guy Larry lacked the charisma that Ali had, the (racially motivated) pride in Louis or the All American love Marciano enjoyed.
But similarly to another post I made today (on PBF) Homes deserves to be remembered for his talent in the ring, his skills and abilities and his fighting courage rather than his personality and life outside the ring.

The sport is Boxing, let's remeber the Boxing he did.

Larry unfortunatly was a combination of wrong fighter at the wrongt time,and a victim of passive racism
First off he comes in right at the end of an era when every fighter was a fighter+,Foreman preached,Norton acted,Frazier sang,Ali was well Ali
Holmes just hit people
But on top of it,it wasnt the Ali fight nobody forgave Holmes for,it was him whipping the great white hype Cooney nobody forgave him for. When he beat 7 kinds of hell out of Tex Cobb,all Sports Illustrated could talk about was how valiant Tex was for taking the punishment

The bit i put in bold is what it should all be about, not who can trash talk the best.

[ICB]

How many fights did Ali lose? HE SUCKED!!!

He lost at least 9 but he didn't suck thats one of the most moronic comment's i've ever seen. Have a on me.

[donnydarkoIRL]

Not necessarily. Some fighters do it more impressively than others. Although Larry's jab was amongst the most effective of all times it wasn't as exciting as Ali, as punishing as Louis' or as bloody minded as Marciano. It is natural that the fight fans and public prefer the more exciting fighter.