Julio Cesar Chavez Jr

[Chino]

Fact #1:
Junior's record should NOT be compared straight up with the typical fighter's record. Amateur experience or not, Junior's record has been padded by dead bodies. It's hardly fair to compare his wins and losses against someone who DID have an amateur career and now has 30-40 wins against REAL competition.

Go look at ANY pro out there and check out his first fights. All bunch of guys who are nowhere to be found now. You want to compare his record with someone who had an amateur career? Impossible. An amateur career means more than 100 fights under his belt of experience. Chavez jr. has none. Anybody Chavez jr fights is pretty much facing a guy with 3 or four times his experience and he still knocks them out left and right.

Fact #2:
Were Junior just another "Joe Blow", the boxing governing bodies would've DEMANDED by now that he step up the level of competition. But since he's the son of the ever-present and slightly overbearing Senior, no one dares interfere.

Nope, did they ever did that to Yory Boy Campas? Do they ever do that to Asian boxers who don't even dare themselves to fight outside their country?

Fact #3:
There are MUCH more deserving fighters that should merit PPV fights ahead of Junior. But again, no one dares mention this to Papa Chavez.

It's not about who deserves to have a PPV fight or not. Heck, I could get in the ring right now and fight anybody and make it a PPV event. Would people pay a nickle to see me fight? Probably not. But nobody can stop me from doing it. Chavez jr does it and people pay to see him, more power to him. If nobody paid to see him fight the people behind all the organization would totally bail on him. But it seems to have success. How cool is that?

Junior is free to pursue a professional career in any way he chooses. Just don't push his bloated record in our faces and call him the next great Mexican legend, because he's not

Chavez went through the same thing with no amateur career and I can imagine people bitched about it as well but look at all the things he accompilshed . No wonder he's a total hall of famer, boxing legend, one of the greatests, etc.

And BECAUSE of the way he's being pampered and brought along, I personally can't wait until a fighter with a pulse beats his overrated ass.

You know, I totally understand you. I was hoping the same for Cotto. I saw his pampered record and how people totally worshipped him in this forum to the point of even making threads of him just walking in Las Vegas, about his fashion, etc. Until he finally faced a fighter with a pulse who totally beat him to a pulp. First champion he faced in his prime and the results were pretty bad.

Can the same thing happen to Chavez jr.? Of course! I would even like to see him face a couple of big names out there but I also know his experience is limited. He's pretty much an amateur with around 40 fights facing pros with more than 140 fights under their belt for experience. Gotta give him merit in one way or the other. The boy facing the big guys pretty much.

[CutMeMick]

I think one day we'll see JCC Jr vs. Angulo.
At least I hope we get to see it one day.

[Rantcatrat]

[/quote}You know, I totally understand you. I was hoping the same for Cotto. I saw his pampered record and how people totally worshipped him in this forum to the point of even making threads of him just walking in Las Vegas, about his fashion, etc. Until he finally faced a fighter with a pulse who totally beat him to a pulp. First champion he faced in his prime and the results were pretty bad. [/quote]

First, why are you defending Chavez Jr. with such veracity? Second, are you comparing Cotto to Chavez Jr.? That is simply wrong. Within your comparison, I assume you are referring to Cotto's single loss to Margarito when you say, "Until he finally faced a fighter with a pulse who totally beat him to a pulp." Cotto had faced many top ten Welter weights before fighting Margarito: Malignaggi, Quintana, Gomez, Mosley, and Judah...before fighting Margarito. Chavez's biggest opponent to date: Matt Fanda. Scoreboard.

More power to him if he can sell PPV's to Mexican fans because of his father's name. But, I don't know many knowledgeable fight fans that would ever willingly buy one. Admittedly, I went to his last fight in Vegas, but I went to see Nonito Donaire, Vanes Martirosyan, and Lamont Peterson. After watching Vanes and Chavez on the same card: Vanes would tear him up.

[intoccabile]

[/quote}You know, I totally understand you. I was hoping the same for Cotto. I saw his pampered record and how people totally worshipped him in this forum to the point of even making threads of him just walking in Las Vegas, about his fashion, etc. Until he finally faced a fighter with a pulse who totally beat him to a pulp. First champion he faced in his prime and the results were pretty bad.

First, why are you defending Chavez Jr. with such veracity? Second, are you comparing Cotto to Chavez Jr.? That is simply wrong. Within your comparison, I assume you are referring to Cotto's single loss to Margarito when you say, "Until he finally faced a fighter with a pulse who totally beat him to a pulp." Cotto had faced many top ten Welter weights before fighting Margarito: Malignaggi, Quintana, Gomez, Mosley, and Judah...before fighting Margarito. Chavez's biggest opponent to date: Matt Fanda. Scoreboard.

More power to him if he can sell PPV's to Mexican fans because of his father's name. But, I don't know many knowledgeable fight fans that would ever willingly buy one. Admittedly, I went to his last fight in Vegas, but I went to see Nonito Donaire, Vanes Martirosyan, and Lamont Peterson. After watching Vanes and Chavez on the same card: Vanes would tear him up.[/quote]

He's not defending JCC but more so trying to bestow the fact that he is only 22, no amateur experience, and has a lot to learn on you guys. Do you remember how many fights his father had? Do you know why his father had so many fights? Because his father lacked the amateur experience. What Chino is saying is completely valid. People he faces have had a ton of fights prior to their pro stints in the amateurs versus Chavez' none. If you combine peoples pro records with their amateur records you'll see the majority of fighters have an incredible amount of fights under their belts in comparison to Chavez, who literally just has those 40 fights and a gang of spars.

I think people are expecting too much from a guy who has 40 fights, neglecting to reason with WHY he has that many fights to begin with. He's making up for fights that he didn't have prior to turning professional - as he should. He is only 22 and has more Fights than people who have been in the game for 10+ years. That is saying something. The kid is active, maturing, and still learning. At this rate, he'll have how many fights when he's Cottos age?

People will look at how many fights he has then forget that he has that many because he missed an amateur career. There is a reason the majority of pros don't fight as often as Chavez. That reason is usually because they also fought a ton of times prior to turning professional. Chavez hasn't done that, but he's doing it now in the pro circuit. Give him time.

Obviously people want to see him move up, but he has to be ready. Do not feed him to the wolves - you will shorten his career.. and he's so young.

[Chino]

First, why are you defending Chavez Jr. with such veracity?

People seem to be forgetting he has no amateur career whatsoever, no olympic exposure, no jr olympic exposure, no golden gloves, NOTHING. He puts those gloves on and straight to the pros and people already want him to fight for a belt. Technically, he's an amateur with 40 fights! And still, he's knocking guys out left and right. Doesn't that deserve some kind of merit? He's fighting pros that have 2 or 3 times more experience than him. If Chavez Jr. had an amateur career, olympic exposure, jr. olympic exposure, golden gloves, etc. Then I would also be a bit doubtful about him at this point.

Second, are you comparing Cotto to Chavez Jr.? That is simply wrong. Within your comparison, I assume you are referring to Cotto's single loss to Margarito when you say, "Until he finally faced a fighter with a pulse who totally beat him to a pulp." Cotto had faced many top ten Welter weights before fighting Margarito: Malignaggi, Quintana, Gomez, Mosley, and Judah...before fighting Margarito. Chavez's biggest opponent to date: Matt Fanda. Scoreboard.

Yes, a single loss to the first champion he faced IN HIS PRIME. Mosley and Judah, way past their primes. Malignaggi and Gomez, guys that don't punch. Not only that but look who those guys faced too. The bad thing is that Cotto got exposed in pretty much all those fights anyways, regardless of them being bunch of guys passed their primes, with not a great resume, and some that didn't even punch that hard. Still, Cotto would get rocked, bloody face, etc. And when he finally steps into the ring with Margarito things came out horrible.
As for Chavez jr., is he facing top opposition? Nope, far from that really. But you have to remember his experience compared to others (what I wrote on this post's first paragraph). I am not saying he's GREAT or that he can beat whoever tomorrow. Far from that. All I am saying is that considering his experience (very very limited), he's not THAT bad as many make it sound.

More power to him if he can sell PPV's to Mexican fans because of his father's name. But, I don't know many knowledgeable fight fans that would ever willingly buy one.

Exactly. Even I wouldn't pay for a PPV with him on the main event. But if he can sell those PPV because of his last name or whatever, more power to him. Like I said, its not about DESERVING to have a PPV is about seeing the possibility of selling your fights and he seems to have fanbase already.

Admittedly, I went to his last fight in Vegas, but I went to see Nonito Donaire, Vanes Martirosyan, and Lamont Peterson. After watching Vanes and Chavez on the same card: Vanes would tear him up.

Anybody that has two or three times more experience than him? Of course. I can see him losing as well. I rather see him face someone that has COMPARABLE experience than him but so far I don't see that. I see him facing guys that are way more experienced than him and he keeps KOing them.

He's not defending JCC but more so trying to bestow the fact that he is only 22, no amateur experience, and has a lot to learn

That's right. I mean, I know he can lose anytime, its not like I am seeing him as the greatest. I am just simply reminding people that his experience is nothing compared to all the pros he keeps facing.

Do you remember how many fights his father had? Do you know why his father had so many fights? Because his father lacked the amateur experience. What Chino is saying is completely valid. People he faces have had a ton of fights prior to their pro stints in the amateurs versus Chavez' none. If you combine peoples pro records with their amateur records you'll see the majority of fighters have an incredible amount of fights under their belts in comparison to Chavez, who literally just has those 40 fights and a gang of spars.

That's what I've been saying.

I think people are expecting too much from a guy who has 40 fights, neglecting to reason with WHY he has that many fights to begin with. He's making up for fights that he didn't have prior to turning professional - as he should. He is only 22 and has more Fights than people who have been in the game for 10+ years. That is saying something. The kid is active, maturing, and still learning. At this rate, he'll have how many fights when he's Cottos age?

Even if his first championship fight is when he reaches fight #50, I would still be like, WOW! I mean, an "amateur" going for a belt?! And I say amateur because normally, anybody that fights for a belt at around fight #25 to 35, has already amateur experience under his belt (which is more than 100 fights) besides olympic exposure, junior olympic exposure, golden gloves, and so on.
I would have liked to have Chavez Jr. go through the amateurs, olympics, jr olympics, and so on. By now, we would see him in a different level. I can see him loose anytime really but so far, he has been looking not bad for a guy who's limited when it comes to experience.

People will look at how many fights he has then forget that he has that many because he missed an amateur career. There is a reason the majority of pros don't fight as often as Chavez. That reason is usually because they also fought a ton of times prior to turning professional. Chavez hasn't done that, but he's doing it now in the pro circuit. Give him time.

Everytime a thread comes out to diss Chavez Jr. I wonder if the people who participate on the thread knows about it.

[TitoFan]

Fact #1:
Junior's record should NOT be compared straight up with the typical fighter's record. Amateur experience or not, Junior's record has been padded by dead bodies. It's hardly fair to compare his wins and losses against someone who DID have an amateur career and now has 30-40 wins against REAL competition.

Go look at ANY pro out there and check out his first fights. All bunch of guys who are nowhere to be found now. You want to compare his record with someone who had an amateur career? Impossible. An amateur career means more than 100 fights under his belt of experience. Chavez jr. has none. Anybody Chavez jr fights is pretty much facing a guy with 3 or four times his experience and he still knocks them out left and right.

You're not getting it... are you. Yes, pro fighters normally get a few gimmies under their belts to start off their pro career. You don't throw a 1-0 fighter in with a 50-fight fighter. But normally, after 8-10 fights, the level of competition gradually and noticeably moves up. With Junior, that hasn't happened yet. So a 40-0 record for Junior means nothing when compared with a 20-0 record of someone who, amateur record or not, has faced real competition. Get this straight... I'm not blasting Junior for not having an amateur competition. Just don't compare his "W-L" totals to the totals of other fighters. It's not fair. How else can I say this so you'll understand

Fact #2:
Were Junior just another "Joe Blow", the boxing governing bodies would've DEMANDED by now that he step up the level of competition. But since he's the son of the ever-present and slightly overbearing Senior, no one dares interfere.

Nope, did they ever did that to Yory Boy Campas? Do they ever do that to Asian boxers who don't even dare themselves to fight outside their country?

Yory Boy's Mexican. Could it be something typical to certain countries in how they bring up their champions? I did a thread a long time ago where I posted the won-loss records of Chavez Sr.'s first 45 victims. It was nothing short of atrocious. So while he went on to great things, his 100+ wins are very much bloated by the 40-some tomato cans he fought in Mexico during the first part of his career.

It's not about who deserves to have a PPV fight or not. Heck, I could get in the ring right now and fight anybody and make it a PPV event. Would people pay a nickle to see me fight? Probably not. But nobody can stop me from doing it. Chavez jr does it and people pay to see him, more power to him. If nobody paid to see him fight the people behind all the organization would totally bail on him. But it seems to have success. How cool is that?

Unfortunately, that's the part of boxing I hear all too often (and can't stand)... the purely business part. Boxing should be about the best fighting the best. Nothing in Junior's resume so far resembles that. Yeah, people will pay to watch a Chavez fight. Just like they mill around traffic accidents to see who's hurt. Out of morbid curiousity.

Junior is free to pursue a professional career in any way he chooses. Just don't push his bloated record in our faces and call him the next great Mexican legend, because he's not

Chavez went through the same thing with no amateur career and I can imagine people bitched about it as well but look at all the things he accompilshed . No wonder he's a total hall of famer, boxing legend, one of the greatests, etc.

Forgive me if I don't sing Chavez's praises from the rooftops. I already explained my thoughts on the man. Great fighter, bloated record.

And BECAUSE of the way he's being pampered and brought along, I personally can't wait until a fighter with a pulse beats his overrated ass.

You know, I totally understand you. I was hoping the same for Cotto. I saw his pampered record and how people totally worshipped him in this forum to the point of even making threads of him just walking in Las Vegas, about his fashion, etc. Until he finally faced a fighter with a pulse who totally beat him to a pulp. First champion he faced in his prime and the results were pretty bad.

Can the same thing happen to Chavez jr.? Of course! I would even like to see him face a couple of big names out there but I also know his experience is limited. He's pretty much an amateur with around 40 fights facing pros with more than 140 fights under their belt for experience. Gotta give him merit in one way or the other. The boy facing the big guys pretty much.

I've tried to respect your opinion up to here. But comparing Chavez "Wet behind the ears" Jr. to Cotto?? Excuse me while I throw up. I see you've already been called on that by other posters. This does you no favors from a boxing knowledge point of view. Cotto faced no one with a pulse before Margarito You MUST be on something. Do you even research your opinions before you spout them off?

Listen, I know you're just as intense a fan of Mexican fighters as I am of Puerto Rican fighters. And there's no more intense rivalry in sports. But you need to be a little more accepting of facts, IMO.

[Mr140]

Tito unfair of you think to get on Chino about Cotto when all you ever seem to do is put down Oscar all the time and his achivements. I mean you say nuts for him to get down on Cotto but i have seen you go all out on Oscar and who he faces seem to forget what his record is and what he has done in his career. I mean i know why you hate the man but dont get made at a guy who puts down one of your own if you do the same to him people in glass houses should not throw stones.

[killersheep]

Well this thread can officially be put down under the "eternal looping argument" category.

Carry on gentlemen.

[TitoFan]

Tito unfair of you think to get on Chino about Cotto when all you ever seem to do is put down Oscar all the time and his achivements. I mean you say nuts for him to get down on Cotto but i have seen you go all out on Oscar and who he faces seem to forget what his record is and what he has done in his career. I mean i know why you hate the man but dont get made at a guy who puts down one of your own if you do the same to him people in glass houses should not throw stones.

Let's discuss Chino's comments about Cotto first. (Let's forget for a minute that I intensely dislike Oscar). How on God's green Earth can Chino compare JCC Jr. with Cotto? Even casual boxing fans will question that. That Chino cannot accept that Chavez Jr. has been coddled, and that his fake record cannot be fairly compared to the EARNED records of other boxers.... well, that's a bit too much for me to stomach. To say that Cotto had not faced anyone with a pulse before Margarito is to be blind to the facts about boxing and about boxers.

Now, let's address my constant putting down of Oscar on this forum. Let me state for the record that I agree that Oscar has done a lot for the sport of boxing. A lot of that has to do with his personality, good looks, cross-cultural appeal, and made-for-TV charisma, as much as it has to do with his boxing skills and record. So I thank him for that. But I also know that he's been the media darling of the press since he won his Olympic gold medal. The man can do no wrong. I think Lampley, Merchant, et al, still have calluses on their knees from the constant servicing they used to give the man.

With that comes the favoritism he's always received, and the power in boxing circles he's always enjoyed. And now, in the twilight of his career, he brazenly goes after smaller, non-dangerous big names to "cement his legacy." Smart to some... cowardly to me. He's always been too calculating for my taste. Not to mention borderline narcissism.

So, to summarize... yes, I'm pretty fanatical about the fighters I like. But I also pride myself on being able to be objective.

[Mr140]

Alright Tito i while give you this i think Chino was a bit hard on Cotto. But now on to the Oscar thing i think your mad because your favorite fighter is not as highly rated as Oscar and that i think that your dislike for him comes because of that. Now let me tell you why he is more highly rated reason being he able to move through weight classes with out getting schooled and was better to sell like you said he is more camera friendly as you can say i guess. But i hate Tito not going to lie still mad he got decsion i think Oscar was robbed in that fight but o well its over now i cant do anything about it. But let me tell you somthing that i think is important about Oscar he never quite even with his close loses and all never quite but Tito the secound he loses he quites throws in the towel to me Tito nothing but quiter to me. As for the money thing and Oscar let me remind you what ever you think about boxing it is for the money always has been it is called prize fighting for a reason and i dont know why it would matter to you if a fighter wanted to make money when ever day he puts his life risk why not get the money.

[amat]

I wouldn't say dead bodies I mean he has been in with guys who have gone into the fights with the idea of winning I mean Matt Vanda, Jose Celaya and even Loriga they have been in there to win and all were tough tests. Those aren't nobodies I mean those are stepping stone fighters for every fighter out there I mean every fighter out there has those guys on the record.

People are so harsh he is 22 how many other 22 year olds are you wanting to fight for the title? I get that it's a little ridiculous that he is a main event on PPV cards but that's playing to one audience and it's not like he goes around saying he's the best fighter in the world.

John Duddy does the same thing and there isn't half the pressure on Duddy to step up the competition like there is Chavez and they've achieved virtually the same.

[TitoFan]

Alright Tito i while give you this i think Chino was a bit hard on Cotto. But now on to the Oscar thing i think your mad because your favorite fighter is not as highly rated as Oscar and that i think that your dislike for him comes because of that. Now let me tell you why he is more highly rated reason being he able to move through weight classes with out getting schooled and was better to sell like you said he is more camera friendly as you can say i guess. But i hate Tito not going to lie still mad he got decsion i think Oscar was robbed in that fight but o well its over now i cant do anything about it. But let me tell you somthing that i think is important about Oscar he never quite even with his close loses and all never quite but Tito the secound he loses he quites throws in the towel to me Tito nothing but quiter to me. As for the money thing and Oscar let me remind you what ever you think about boxing it is for the money always has been it is called prize fighting for a reason and i dont know why it would matter to you if a fighter wanted to make money when ever day he puts his life risk why not get the money.

I know you're one of the forum's biggest Oscar fans, just like I'm one of Tito's biggest fans. Granted, there are things to be admired about Oscar, such as how he did move through a few weight divisions successfully. However, I don't count middleweight in there. And while both Tito and Oscar were unsuccessful in their bids at MW, I personally give the higher grade to Tito at that weight. After all, Tito DID knockout William Joppy in impressive fashion. What did Oscar do at that weight that was convincing? Anyway, like I said before... Oscar HAS done a lot for boxing, and for that I (huge boxing fan that I've always been) am grateful. I guess my dislike for Oscar comes from three basic reasons:

1. His being a media darling from day one. Hell, you'd think his sh*t didn't stink. Once you get that stamp from the media, you can do no wrong.

2. The blatant way he puts his "legacy" before all else, even when it means he has clearly avoided certain fighters.

3. He just comes across FAKE to me. I don't know... call it a gut feeling. Oscar has always seemed like a used car salesman, always giving you a pitch.

People always compare Oscar favorably against Tito, and yet when you look at the bare numbers: Tito had the better record overall, the higher KO percentage. Several of Oscar's KO victories were against fighters that Tito had already ruined. Case in point, Vargas. Why did Oscar wait until Tito had pounded the crap out of Vargas to agree to face him? 'Cause a pre-Tito Vargas would've ripped him a new one, that's why. As for Tito quitting every time he lost... well, I can't say I was too happy about his quitting after the Hopkins fight. I blame his father for a lot of his bad decisions. But Tito was his own man and should've parted ways with his dad on boxing-related matters. But hey... Tito in his peak was unequaled, IMO.

[Mr140]

Ok i while say this to you and tell me if i am wrong Tito started at what weight let me see 147 Oscar started at what weight let me see 130. So he moved up way more form his starting weight so to me Oscar has had a more succesful move even with out the MW divsion my friend. IF you llok at his record he has beaten alot more former champions then Tito even if he take into account the ones they both faced Oscar has beaten more. Also Oscar was top pound for pound i dont think Tito was ever that. And i never seen Oscar outclassed they way Tito has at any point but with being said i think you should look at Oscar record before WW he did alot there even more then Tito at WW but Tito was a good fighter but i dont think he was as skilled or acommplished more then Oscar did in his career i looked at the states and i see Oscar when divsion and champions beat.

[Chino]

How on God's green Earth can Chino compare JCC Jr. with Cotto? Even casual boxing fans will question that

Exactly, we can't compare them. Let me make it clear that I am not saying that Jr. is the greatest thing out there. No, far from that. And yes, I accept that Chavez Jr. record has been coddled or whoever you want to call it. I mean, he's pretty much an amateur fighting pros really. I repeat, I am not saying his record is the greatest, that he's #1 or anything, no no no. It's just that when people throw crap at him, they tend to forget he has no amateur record, no olympic exposure, no jr. olympic exposure, no golden gloves, etc. Now, if he did have an amateur career and all kinds of exposure out there then I would be complaining as well.

To say that Cotto had not faced anyone with a pulse before Margarito is to be blind to the facts about boxing and about boxers

Lots of Cotto fans thought he was the greatest out there after he faced Gomez. And I ask, was Gomez really a big threa? Oh pleaaaase. Paul Malignnani, was he a threat? Was Mosley and Judah in their prime? The guys you mentioned in his resume, check out their list of opponents and tell me if Cotto really has faced the greatest guys out there. He even struggled with journeymen he faced before and almost got saved by the referee. Always getting cut, getting rocked, etc. and that was against all those guys who are nowhere to be seen now. Then he finally steps into the ring with a guy in his prime and the results were horrible.

Now, let's address my constant putting down of Oscar on this forum. Let me state for the record that I agree that Oscar has done a lot for the sport of boxing. A lot of that has to do with his personality, good looks, cross-cultural appeal, and made-for-TV charisma, as much as it has to do with his boxing skills and record. So I thank him for that.

And now, in the twilight of his career, he brazenly goes after smaller, non-dangerous big names to "cement his legacy." Smart to some... cowardly to me.

When he faced Forbes people were all crying about it talking all kinds of crap about him but along came Cotto to face Gomez and people ended up praising him as one of his greatest victories ever.

Ok i while say this to you and tell me if i am wrong Tito started at what weight let me see 147 Oscar started at what weight let me see 130. So he moved up way more form his starting weight so to me Oscar has had a more succesful move even with out the MW divsion my friend. IF you llok at his record he has beaten alot more former champions then Tito even if he take into account the ones they both faced Oscar has beaten more. Also Oscar was top pound for pound i dont think Tito was ever that. And i never seen Oscar outclassed they way Tito has at any point but with being said i think you should look at Oscar record before WW he did alot there even more then Tito at WW but Tito was a good fighter but i dont think he was as skilled or acommplished more then Oscar did in his career i looked at the states and i see Oscar when divsion and champions beat.

I was about to say that too. I think both Tito and Oscar have an admirable resume and also have looked not so good lately.

[Mr140]

Well for me everyone is always bagging on Oscar but to tell you thruth do you think Margrito or Cotto would go farer the WW i think not my friend. Oscar started at a lower weight then both of them and was able to become champion in even higher divsion then both of them. If you took Cotto and Margritos careers and put them together still would not be as good as Oscar Del Hoyas to me the man can do what he wants you know why he can because he has earned it and he can get away with it any other fighter would do what Oscar does if they could so there.