Is Muhammad Ali an American Hero?

[brocktonblockbust]

I am American, and although I personally only routed for Ali one time (vs Holmes), I can say he certainly IS an American hero.

[Mars_ax]

With Ali's current health condition being what it is, I know it's hard for me to feel any animosity toward him. Whatever "sins" he may have been guilty of in his youth should now be forgiven and long forgotten. I sincerely hope the man is able to enjoy what's left of his life in peace.

BTW, I think it's safe to say, if there is such a thing these days, Muhammad Ali is without any doubt, an American Hero, I know he is in my book.

[Dark Lord Al]

Question for the Americans.

It always puzzles me that a guy who chose a religion over fighting for his country , can be an American hero.
Some say it was against his NEW beliefs , many would find it hard not to think he was a coward.
I mean the guy chose the muslim faith which he wasnt even born into , then turned his back on his country.
The stuff of Hero's ?
No not for me , Joe Louis was a hero.
For me he will always be Cassius Clay.
Im interested in your views guys.

[marbleheadmaui]

Question for the Americans.

It always puzzles me that a guy who chose a religion over fighting for his country , can be an American hero.
Some say it was against his NEW beliefs , many would find it hard not to think he was a coward.
I mean the guy chose the muslim faith which he wasnt even born into , then turned his back on his country.
The stuff of Hero's ?
No not for me , Joe Louis was a hero.
For me he will always be Cassius Clay.
Im interested in your views guys.

What became the USA was largely initially populated by religious outcasts from Europe, the Pilgrims most famously, but also Roger Williams, William Penn etc. who all chose faiths other than those they were born into. So it was no surprise that the first clause of the Bill of Rights speaks to freedom of religion. From there springs a long American tradition of "conscientious objection." That is that people who seriously examined the issue of war and found on religious grounds they couldn't justify war could be exempted from military service. Such exemptions began during the American Revolution and have continued since. To give just one example of how widespread and accepted this tradition is in the USA, even during WWII over 10,000 men were exempted from service on grounds of conscience. So Ali was standing firmly in an American tradition when he did this. Now many believe he was merely a robot for the thuggish Black Muslims, but I'm convinced he was sincere. His ongoing search for the right branch of Islam for him through his adult life has convinced me.

But many people do think he betrayed the nation. I am not one of them. While I disagreed with his decision? The way he conducted himself throughout the process was exemplary in my view.

Sorry for the long-windedness.

[Gandalf]

Question for the Americans.

It always puzzles me that a guy who chose a religion over fighting for his country , can be an American hero.
Some say it was against his NEW beliefs , many would find it hard not to think he was a coward.
I mean the guy chose the muslim faith which he wasnt even born into , then turned his back on his country.
The stuff of Hero's ?
No not for me , Joe Louis was a hero.
For me he will always be Cassius Clay.
Im interested in your views guys.

So a hero is one who goes off to fight in an immoral and phoney war on the whims of the government? The ones who refuse to toe the line or keep to the manufactured script are not? I disagree with that line of thinking. I admire Ali for refusing to go to war and think that was actually a very heroic gesture. It might have also been a selfish gesture on his part, but as a stand I think it was quite apt and it is hard to interpret it as not also being a gesture of principle.

As much as I loath organised religion, I do think that is something that boils down to personal choice. If Ali believed that was what he wanted to believe then so be it. I don't understand how being a Muslim could make him anti-American either.

I think there are grounds for dismissing Ali and his views, but the war and being a Muslim are things that I find hard to condemn as anti-American. You could argue that Daniel Elsberg was unpatriotic, but I look at it on the other side of the coin. Those with vested interests and extreme levels of power are quite often themselves far from patriotic or just.

Ali was just an individual finding his way through life. Sometimes he seemed extremely misguided, but in other respects he seemed like a man with his own evolving values. Obviously there were contradictions, but you find that with any evolving intelligent being.

I am not American though, so shall step aside from the soapbox.

[marbleheadmaui]

Question for the Americans.

It always puzzles me that a guy who chose a religion over fighting for his country , can be an American hero.
Some say it was against his NEW beliefs , many would find it hard not to think he was a coward.
I mean the guy chose the muslim faith which he wasnt even born into , then turned his back on his country.
The stuff of Hero's ?
No not for me , Joe Louis was a hero.
For me he will always be Cassius Clay.
Im interested in your views guys.

So a hero is one who goes off to fight in an immoral and phoney war on the whims of the government? The ones who refuse to toe the line or keep to the manufactured script are not? I disagree with that line of thinking. I admire Ali for refusing to go to war and think that was actually a very heroic gesture. It might have also been a selfish gesture on his part, but as a stand I think it was quite apt and it is hard to interpret it as not also being a gesture of principle.

As much as I loath organised religion, I do think that is something that boils down to personal choice. If Ali believed that was what he wanted to believe then so be it. I don't understand how being a Muslim could make him anti-American either.

I think there are grounds for dismissing Ali and his views, but the war and being a Muslim are things that I find hard to condemn as anti-American. You could argue that Daniel Elsberg was unpatriotic, but I look at it on the other side of the coin. Those with vested interests and extreme levels of power are quite often themselves far from patriotic or just.

Ali was just an individual finding his way through life. Sometimes he seemed extremely misguided, but in other respects he seemed like a man with his own evolving values. Obviously there were contradictions, but you find that with any evolving intelligent being.

I am not American though, so shall step aside from the soapbox.

Let's be really clear about one thing. Ali wasn't then a "Muslim" in the ordinary sense. He was a Black Muslim, aka the Nation of Islam. An American whacko sect formed in the 1930's by a slick huckster named Fard and then taken over by Elijah Muhammad, another huckster. These guys believe things like a scinetist named Yakub created white men as devils, that a large spaceship carrying God had been launched from Japan in the 1920's and that a fleet of UFO's used by God are always around. Not exactly mainsteam Islamic belief huh? These jokers slaughtered Malcolm X for apostasy as well. While Islam may or may not be anti-American (it is certainly opposed to religious freedom), the Black Muslims advocate Black Separatism among other things. That is clearly not an idea consistent with American ideals.

Now Ali has long since broken with them and become a Sufi I believe.

As for Daniel Ellsberg? I think he committed Treason. It may have been what his conscience required, but it was still Treason.

[Gandalf]

Question for the Americans.

It always puzzles me that a guy who chose a religion over fighting for his country , can be an American hero.
Some say it was against his NEW beliefs , many would find it hard not to think he was a coward.
I mean the guy chose the muslim faith which he wasnt even born into , then turned his back on his country.
The stuff of Hero's ?
No not for me , Joe Louis was a hero.
For me he will always be Cassius Clay.
Im interested in your views guys.

So a hero is one who goes off to fight in an immoral and phoney war on the whims of the government? The ones who refuse to toe the line or keep to the manufactured script are not? I disagree with that line of thinking. I admire Ali for refusing to go to war and think that was actually a very heroic gesture. It might have also been a selfish gesture on his part, but as a stand I think it was quite apt and it is hard to interpret it as not also being a gesture of principle.

As much as I loath organised religion, I do think that is something that boils down to personal choice. If Ali believed that was what he wanted to believe then so be it. I don't understand how being a Muslim could make him anti-American either.

I think there are grounds for dismissing Ali and his views, but the war and being a Muslim are things that I find hard to condemn as anti-American. You could argue that Daniel Elsberg was unpatriotic, but I look at it on the other side of the coin. Those with vested interests and extreme levels of power are quite often themselves far from patriotic or just.

Ali was just an individual finding his way through life. Sometimes he seemed extremely misguided, but in other respects he seemed like a man with his own evolving values. Obviously there were contradictions, but you find that with any evolving intelligent being.

I am not American though, so shall step aside from the soapbox.

Let's be really clear about one thing. Ali wasn't then a "Muslim" in the ordinary sense. He was a Black Muslim, aka the Nation of Islam. An American whacko sect formed in the 1930's by a slick huckster named Fard and then taken over by Elijah Muhammad, another huckster. These guys believe things like a scinetist named Yakub created white men as devils, that a large spaceship carrying God had been launched from Japan in the 1920's and that a fleet of UFO's used by God are always around. Not exactly mainsteam Islamic belief huh? These jokers slaughtered Malcolm X for apostasy as well. While Islam may or may not be anti-American (it is certainly opposed to religious freedom), the Black Muslims advocate Black Separatism among other things. That is clearly not an idea consistent with American ideals.

Now Ali has long since broken with them and become a Sufi I believe.

As for Daniel Ellsberg? I think he committed Treason. It may have been what his conscience required, but it was still Treason.

Still, he was a Muslim in the broad sense of the term and as you yourself point out, the freedom to practice whatever strand of religion you believe in is in itself a long enshrined American value. Admittedly, it sounds like a somewhat extreme set of values being enshrined, but I happen to view all religions as equally absurd in that regard. Seperatism is quite awful, but equally bad are Christians who venomously condemn gays or threaten to burn the Koran. I don't think Christians are particularly anti-American either though. Anti-Americanism is too broad a term and I don't think you can say people of any faith are either pro or anti a government system. Extremist elements are probably more inclined to that way of thinking though and to that extent can see how those ALi was associating with might be viewed as somewhat "anti American" or at least against elements of what the government was representing.

I certainly think Ali was quite racist and alluded to that earlier as one of the elements that puts me off him. I struggle to relate to a lot of his views regarding race and women, at least those views espoused quite openly whilst still active as a fighter. I don't really know for sure what he believes these days as it is rare that we hear anything of him. He is often at big events, but we see him carrying the Olympic torch and at charity events, we don't hear the man speak anymore.

Elberg is moving off of topic somewhat, but the point I am making is that it is an extremely general term to state something as anti-American. In the eyes of most on the left at least, Elsberg is regarded as a patriotic American. Not anti-American in the slightest, but you will get those on the right arguing quite the opposite. You have a similar argument going on with Bradley Manning today.

[marbleheadmaui]

Question for the Americans.

It always puzzles me that a guy who chose a religion over fighting for his country , can be an American hero.
Some say it was against his NEW beliefs , many would find it hard not to think he was a coward.
I mean the guy chose the muslim faith which he wasnt even born into , then turned his back on his country.
The stuff of Hero's ?
No not for me , Joe Louis was a hero.
For me he will always be Cassius Clay.
Im interested in your views guys.

So a hero is one who goes off to fight in an immoral and phoney war on the whims of the government? The ones who refuse to toe the line or keep to the manufactured script are not? I disagree with that line of thinking. I admire Ali for refusing to go to war and think that was actually a very heroic gesture. It might have also been a selfish gesture on his part, but as a stand I think it was quite apt and it is hard to interpret it as not also being a gesture of principle.

As much as I loath organised religion, I do think that is something that boils down to personal choice. If Ali believed that was what he wanted to believe then so be it. I don't understand how being a Muslim could make him anti-American either.

I think there are grounds for dismissing Ali and his views, but the war and being a Muslim are things that I find hard to condemn as anti-American. You could argue that Daniel Elsberg was unpatriotic, but I look at it on the other side of the coin. Those with vested interests and extreme levels of power are quite often themselves far from patriotic or just.

Ali was just an individual finding his way through life. Sometimes he seemed extremely misguided, but in other respects he seemed like a man with his own evolving values. Obviously there were contradictions, but you find that with any evolving intelligent being.

I am not American though, so shall step aside from the soapbox.

Let's be really clear about one thing. Ali wasn't then a "Muslim" in the ordinary sense. He was a Black Muslim, aka the Nation of Islam. An American whacko sect formed in the 1930's by a slick huckster named Fard and then taken over by Elijah Muhammad, another huckster. These guys believe things like a scinetist named Yakub created white men as devils, that a large spaceship carrying God had been launched from Japan in the 1920's and that a fleet of UFO's used by God are always around. Not exactly mainsteam Islamic belief huh? These jokers slaughtered Malcolm X for apostasy as well. While Islam may or may not be anti-American (it is certainly opposed to religious freedom), the Black Muslims advocate Black Separatism among other things. That is clearly not an idea consistent with American ideals.

Now Ali has long since broken with them and become a Sufi I believe.

As for Daniel Ellsberg? I think he committed Treason. It may have been what his conscience required, but it was still Treason.

Still, he was a Muslim in the broad sense of the term and as you yourself point out, the freedom to practice whatever strand of religion you believe in is in itself a long enshrined American value. Admittedly, it sounds like a somewhat extreme set of values being enshrined, but I happen to view all religions as equally absurd in that regard. Seperatism is quite awful, but equally bad are Christians who venomously condemn gays or threaten to burn the Koran. I don't think Christians are particularly anti-American either though. Anti-Americanism is too broad a term and I don't think you can say people of any faith are either pro or anti a government system. Extremist elements are probably more inclined to that way of thinking though and to that extent can see how those ALi was associating with might be viewed as somewhat "anti American" or at least against elements of what the government was representing.

I certainly think Ali was quite racist and alluded to that earlier as one of the elements that puts me off him. I struggle to relate to a lot of his views regarding race and women, at least those views espoused quite openly whilst still active as a fighter. I don't really know for sure what he believes these days as it is rare that we hear anything of him. He is often at big events, but we see him carrying the Olympic torch and at charity events, we don't hear the man speak anymore.

Elberg is moving off of topic somewhat, but the point I am making is that it is an extremely general term to state something as anti-American. In the eyes of most on the left at least, Elsberg is regarded as a patriotic American. Not anti-American in the slightest, but you will get those on the right arguing quite the opposite. You have a similar argument going on with Bradley Manning today.

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I think your view on Ali is well put and hard to argue with very much. As far as "Anti-American" goes, in my view it can be comprised of two things, being in opposition to clear American interests (but ONLY clear ones) or in opposition of basic (but only basic) traditional American values (pluralism, freedom of expression, freedom of religion etc.). It is NEVER in ANY nation's interest to lose a war. It just isn't. And both Ellsberg and Manning acted to make such an event more likely. Now to be fair, dissent, especially dissent in which the actor is willing to pay the price? Clearly in line with basic traditional American values.

To come back to Ali, I don't believe Ali acted in an anti-American matter as an individual. I believe the Nation of Islam did and does so on a routine basis. That he broke with them speaks well of him.

[Master]

Ali should be an all American hero he believed and he achieved just like the American dream.

[Gandalf]

Ali should be an all American hero he believed and he achieved just like the American dream.

In terms of boxing, he can be regarded as nothing less than a hero. He was phenomenal and to come back after that long layoff and stake his claim at the top was an exceptional achievement. A special fighter.

[Hornfinger]

Gonna get accused of trolling even though I'm not....

Can he really be an american hero? After all he did refuse to go and invade someone elses country and kill a load of innocent people. Usually it's the other weay round to be called a hero these days.....

And thats before we get sarted on the fact hes a muslim....

[stebs]

Question for the Americans.

It always puzzles me that a guy who chose a religion over fighting for his country , can be an American hero.
Some say it was against his NEW beliefs , many would find it hard not to think he was a coward.
I mean the guy chose the muslim faith which he wasnt even born into , then turned his back on his country.
The stuff of Hero's ?
No not for me , Joe Louis was a hero.
For me he will always be Cassius Clay.
Im interested in your views guys.

I agree with you, Ali is no hero and can never be. He is put on this pedestal only because of his illness. Great boxer yes, disrespectful piece of sh*t yes.

Ali was for Ali and that's it, how can anyone call him an American Hero when he cared about no one but himself. ?

[stebs]

Question for the Americans.

It always puzzles me that a guy who chose a religion over fighting for his country , can be an American hero.
Some say it was against his NEW beliefs , many would find it hard not to think he was a coward.
I mean the guy chose the muslim faith which he wasnt even born into , then turned his back on his country.
The stuff of Hero's ?
No not for me , Joe Louis was a hero.
For me he will always be Cassius Clay.
Im interested in your views guys.

I agree with you, Ali is no hero and can never be.He is put on this pedestal only because of his illness. Great boxer yes, disrespectful piece of sh*t yes.

Ali was for Ali and that's it, how can anyone call him an American Hero when he cared about no one but himself. ?

This whole statement bothered me since I hit (submit reply).

It sounds harsh and it's wrong, he can be considered a hero by many as someone who stood up and spoke out for the civil rights movement in America.

[Hulk]

I don't knock Ali's skill or his impact on the sport and certainly he is a hero to some Americans....I am not one of them. I do not mind people seeing him as a hero, I mean he certainly seemed to stand against the war in Vietnam and being as big of an icon as he was at the time and with the rise of the "counter culture" hitting at the same time I think that has a lot to do with why people think so highly of him. For example, when (former news anchor, now host of HBO's Real Sports) Bryant Gumbel talked about the result of Ali-Frazier I he said "You got the feeling like the bad guys won"...now I for one take offense to that because Joe Frazier wasn't white, he wasn't pro-War, he wasn't "the anti-Ali" in anything other than his fighting style. But the cult of personality that is/was Ali branded Joe Frazier as some sort of collaborator with the status quo because he didn't talk trash, he didn't get involved in politics...and that's a shame for Joe because he basically shared the same view of the war with Ali but he just had a different personality is all...same with Foreman.

Joe Louis is an American hero to me...he served his country honorably, he opened doors for African-Americans to excell and acheive in areas they had previously been unable to participate in for example he got African-Americans onto the PGA tour, he worked towards getting the Armed Forces desegregated, and he won one of the most important fights of the last century.

What eats at me is that when the Counter Culture hit the trail blazers of the past (especially Joe Louis and Jesse Owens) were not trusted, they were not respected, and they were all but shunned by the very people they aimed to help clear a path for just because they had EARNED the respect of the average American of the previous generation. I just wish things hadn't happened that way...and after Louis' death I'm sure Ali felt the same way, I just think it's a shame that those two great champions couldn't have shared a greater bond.

This is a GREAT answer. Joe Louis is as big a hero as Ali was in my book.

Louis is a bigger hero than Ali. Ali calling Louis a sell out and his constant bad mouthing of him is one of the most fucked up things ever. It was totally uncalled for. And it's one of the reason I will always say fuck Ali

Yep Ali was a disrespectful cold hearted punk to Joe Louis.

Louis had a great comeback to him once tho.

Ali: "Joe all you ever did was fight the bum of the month."

Louis: "You woulda been one of the bums."

[Master]

I don't knock Ali's skill or his impact on the sport and certainly he is a hero to some Americans....I am not one of them. I do not mind people seeing him as a hero, I mean he certainly seemed to stand against the war in Vietnam and being as big of an icon as he was at the time and with the rise of the "counter culture" hitting at the same time I think that has a lot to do with why people think so highly of him. For example, when (former news anchor, now host of HBO's Real Sports) Bryant Gumbel talked about the result of Ali-Frazier I he said "You got the feeling like the bad guys won"...now I for one take offense to that because Joe Frazier wasn't white, he wasn't pro-War, he wasn't "the anti-Ali" in anything other than his fighting style. But the cult of personality that is/was Ali branded Joe Frazier as some sort of collaborator with the status quo because he didn't talk trash, he didn't get involved in politics...and that's a shame for Joe because he basically shared the same view of the war with Ali but he just had a different personality is all...same with Foreman.

Joe Louis is an American hero to me...he served his country honorably, he opened doors for African-Americans to excell and acheive in areas they had previously been unable to participate in for example he got African-Americans onto the PGA tour, he worked towards getting the Armed Forces desegregated, and he won one of the most important fights of the last century.

What eats at me is that when the Counter Culture hit the trail blazers of the past (especially Joe Louis and Jesse Owens) were not trusted, they were not respected, and they were all but shunned by the very people they aimed to help clear a path for just because they had EARNED the respect of the average American of the previous generation. I just wish things hadn't happened that way...and after Louis' death I'm sure Ali felt the same way, I just think it's a shame that those two great champions couldn't have shared a greater bond.

This is a GREAT answer. Joe Louis is as big a hero as Ali was in my book.

Louis is a bigger hero than Ali. Ali calling Louis a sell out and his constant bad mouthing of him is one of the most fucked up things ever. It was totally uncalled for. And it's one of the reason I will always say fuck Ali

Yep Ali was a disrespectful cold hearted punk to Joe Louis.

Louis had a great comeback to him once tho.

Ali: "Joe all you ever did was fight the bum of the month."

Louis: "You woulda been one of the bums."

To be fair Ali did also say that Louis was the greatest. Most champions had criticism from older champs, Johnson to Dempsey, to Louis, to Ali, to Holmes to Tyson.