should fighters who duck others be all time greats

[SalTheButcher]

Should a fighter who dodges another while they are both in their glory years still be considered one of the greatest ?

fighters who say other fighters are ducking them when all they have to do is vacate thier WBO belt and beat some bum who is ranked 1 by the WBA/WBC/IBF should not go down as all time greats

[SimonH]

While you obviously know a lot about boxing history, Britkid, it's always been just as obvious to me that your "alltime" lists seem slightly skewed "geographically speaking." I can't help noticing how none of the famous Puerto Rican fighters made your list. And yet you seem to have a lot of British fighters in there that the majority of the boxing fan base on this side of the world hasn't even heard of.

I have a lot of issues with your "list." Felix Trinidad and Wilfredo Gomez not on there, when you have other dubious entries in there? Carlos Zarate? Didn't Gomez take him apart at the peak of his career? Surely you'll have a "historical" answer for that, complete with dates, names and anecdotes.

For my money, however, "alltime" lists are highly subjective and yours is no exception.
Hope you understand.

TitoFan

Like you say TitoFan these lists are purely subjective, and indeed mine is absolutely no exception.

But to answer a couple of your points:

I have two British fighter in my top 50; Jimmy Wilde and Bob Fitzsimmons. And Fitzsimmons is a very dubious 'honorary' Brit.

As for the Puerto Rican thing, honestly it is nothing personal, your country is an amazing producer of superb boxing talent. I have Trinidad rated #49 in my list, Gomez #63 and Benitez #46.

As for the Zarate thing; like I said to Atomic Bull, IMO rating the greats is not as simple as who beat who. Zarate was at the pinnacle of his career as a Bantamweight, during which, he put some amazing numbers together. Gomez was a brilliant 122lber, but despite still being at his peak, Sanchez found him out that night he moved to 126lbs, and that damaged his legacy.

[TitoFan]

While you obviously know a lot about boxing history, Britkid, it's always been just as obvious to me that your "alltime" lists seem slightly skewed "geographically speaking." I can't help noticing how none of the famous Puerto Rican fighters made your list. And yet you seem to have a lot of British fighters in there that the majority of the boxing fan base on this side of the world hasn't even heard of.

I have a lot of issues with your "list." Felix Trinidad and Wilfredo Gomez not on there, when you have other dubious entries in there? Carlos Zarate? Didn't Gomez take him apart at the peak of his career? Surely you'll have a "historical" answer for that, complete with dates, names and anecdotes.

For my money, however, "alltime" lists are highly subjective and yours is no exception.
Hope you understand.

TitoFan

Like you say TitoFan these lists are purely subjective, and indeed mine is absolutely no exception.

But to answer a couple of your points:

I have two British fighter in my top 50; Jimmy Wilde and Bob Fitzsimmons. And Fitzsimmons is a very dubious 'honorary' Brit.

As for the Puerto Rican thing, honestly it is nothing personal, your country is an amazing producer of superb boxing talent. I have Trinidad rated #49 in my list, Gomez #63 and Benitez #46.

As for the Zarate thing; like I said to Atomic Bull, IMO rating the greats is not as simple as who beat who. Zarate was at the pinnacle of his career as a Bantamweight, during which, he put some amazing numbers together. Gomez was a brilliant 122lber, but despite still being at his peak, Sanchez found him out that night he moved to 126lbs, and that damaged his legacy.

Again, let me state why I think "all-time" lists are entirely subjective and cases can be made for many fighters included in some lists and left off others.

You rank Chavez 15th on your list, while Trinidad, Gomez and Benitez are all out of your top 40. And yet, I've stated in other posts where I think Chavez's record is very much overrated, as is his standings on your all-time list.

You list as your first factor for rating fighters being: "Quality of Opposition."
Let's see a few facts:

1. Chavez's opponents cumulative records was a losing record through Chavez's first 45 fights (45 fights!!).

2. Here's a sampling of some of Chavez's opponents records very much into his career:

a) 45th opponent: 1-6-0 record
b) 52nd opponent: 1-12-0 record
c) 67th opponent: 0-0-0 record
d) 80th opponent: 1-0-0 record

Fighting bums at this stage in your career?!? Hmmmm.....

3. Chavez's first 37 fights were ALL in Mexico. His 38th fight? He fought the "great" Jerry Lewis (the boxer, not the comedian) in California. Chavez had already KO'ed Lewis less than two months earlier in Mexico, when Lewis was 6-3-0 at the time. Not exactly a stretch. Chavez's first quality opponent outside of Mexico came a little later.

Let's talk about opponents winning percentage. Trinidad, who you rated as 49th, fought opponents with a combined winning percentage of 84.3% throughout his famed 44-fight career.

By contrast, Chavez's opponents winning percentage by his 44th fight was a measly 46.5%. He later improved on those numbers as he continued to pad his record.

As far as Wilfredo Gomez being 63rd, that just leads me to believe you have some serious gaps in your knowledge of Latin boxers, of which Puerto Rico has more than its share of champs. Very few boxers in history can boast a higher KO percentage than Wilfredo "Bazooka" Gomez throughout his career. His KO over Carlos Zarate, undefeated and a rising Mexican superstar at the time, is an all-time classic. And his two losses were to Salvador Sanchez and Azumah Nelson, all-time greats in their own right.

[SimonH]

Again, let me state why I think "all-time" lists are entirely subjective and cases can be made for many fighters included in some lists and left off others.

You rank Chavez 15th on your list, while Trinidad, Gomez and Benitez are all out of your top 40. And yet, I've stated in other posts where I think Chavez's record is very much overrated, as is his standings on your all-time list.

You list as your first factor for rating fighters being: "Quality of Opposition."
Let's see a few facts:

1. Chavez's opponents cumulative records was a losing record through Chavez's first 45 fights (45 fights!!).

2. Here's a sampling of some of Chavez's opponents records very much into his career:

a) 45th opponent: 1-6-0 record
b) 52nd opponent: 1-12-0 record
c) 67th opponent: 0-0-0 record
d) 80th opponent: 1-0-0 record

Fighting bums at this stage in your career?!? Hmmmm.....

3. Chavez's first 37 fights were ALL in Mexico. His 38th fight? He fought the "great" Jerry Lewis (the boxer, not the comedian) in California. Chavez had already KO'ed Lewis less than two months earlier in Mexico, when Lewis was 6-3-0 at the time. Not exactly a stretch. Chavez's first quality opponent outside of Mexico came a little later.

Let's talk about opponents winning percentage. Trinidad, who you rated as 49th, fought opponents with a combined winning percentage of 84.3% throughout his famed 44-fight career.

By contrast, Chavez's opponents winning percentage by his 44th fight was a measly 46.5%. He later improved on those numbers as he continued to pad his record.

As far as Wilfredo Gomez being 63rd, that just leads me to believe you have some serious gaps in your knowledge of Latin boxers, of which Puerto Rico has more than its share of champs. Very few boxers in history can boast a higher KO percentage than Wilfredo "Bazooka" Gomez throughout his career. His KO over Carlos Zarate, undefeated and a rising Mexican superstar at the time, is an all-time classic. And his two losses were to Salvador Sanchez and Azumah Nelson, all-time greats in their own right.

Chavez was brought up a different way to many fighters now a days. He learnt his trade properly before moving up in class. As for your 'facts' if you were using boxrec to put Chavez's career opponents together, the figures will be wrong, as many of his more obscure opponents have incomplete records.

As for a direct comparison, Chavez was a World class fighter from 1984 to 1998 and during the period of 1986 to 1993, he was in the argument for being the best in the world. Trinidad on the other hand was World class from 1993 to 2001, and became a contender for the best fighter in the world from 1999 to 2001...

As for Gomez, the thing that really hurts him, is the fight that was supposed to make him a superstar (Sanchez), he lost, and he never really recovered from that fight.

[TitoFan]

Again, let me state why I think "all-time" lists are entirely subjective and cases can be made for many fighters included in some lists and left off others.

You rank Chavez 15th on your list, while Trinidad, Gomez and Benitez are all out of your top 40. And yet, I've stated in other posts where I think Chavez's record is very much overrated, as is his standings on your all-time list.

You list as your first factor for rating fighters being: "Quality of Opposition."
Let's see a few facts:

1. Chavez's opponents cumulative records was a losing record through Chavez's first 45 fights (45 fights!!).

2. Here's a sampling of some of Chavez's opponents records very much into his career:

a) 45th opponent: 1-6-0 record
b) 52nd opponent: 1-12-0 record
c) 67th opponent: 0-0-0 record
d) 80th opponent: 1-0-0 record

Fighting bums at this stage in your career?!? Hmmmm.....

3. Chavez's first 37 fights were ALL in Mexico. His 38th fight? He fought the "great" Jerry Lewis (the boxer, not the comedian) in California. Chavez had already KO'ed Lewis less than two months earlier in Mexico, when Lewis was 6-3-0 at the time. Not exactly a stretch. Chavez's first quality opponent outside of Mexico came a little later.

Let's talk about opponents winning percentage. Trinidad, who you rated as 49th, fought opponents with a combined winning percentage of 84.3% throughout his famed 44-fight career.

By contrast, Chavez's opponents winning percentage by his 44th fight was a measly 46.5%. He later improved on those numbers as he continued to pad his record.

As far as Wilfredo Gomez being 63rd, that just leads me to believe you have some serious gaps in your knowledge of Latin boxers, of which Puerto Rico has more than its share of champs. Very few boxers in history can boast a higher KO percentage than Wilfredo "Bazooka" Gomez throughout his career. His KO over Carlos Zarate, undefeated and a rising Mexican superstar at the time, is an all-time classic. And his two losses were to Salvador Sanchez and Azumah Nelson, all-time greats in their own right.

Chavez was brought up a different way to many fighters now a days. He learnt his trade properly before moving up in class. As for your 'facts' if you were using boxrec to put Chavez's career opponents together, the figures will be wrong, as many of his more obscure opponents have incomplete records.

As for a direct comparison, Chavez was a World class fighter from 1984 to 1998 and during the period of 1986 to 1993, he was in the argument for being the best in the world. Trinidad on the other hand was World class from 1993 to 2001, and became a contender for the best fighter in the world from 1999 to 2001...

As for Gomez, the thing that really hurts him, is the fight that was supposed to make him a superstar (Sanchez), he lost, and he never really recovered from that fight.

The length of time at "World Class" status (in your opinion, I might add), does nothing to disprove my point. By your own admission, Chavez was brought along differently than a lot of fighters nowadays. He plodded along, destroying totally inferior opposition for years, before getting quality opposition or even leaving the comforts of home in Mexico. By contrast, Tito, as with many world class fighters nowadays, was brought along much quicker. You're comparing apples and oranges if you go solely by record. Put Chavez in today's environment and throw him against a world champion 20 fights into his career, and see how he would have survived.

Even after Chavez began fighting quality fighters, he always managed to sprinkle in a few "Bozos" every now and then. After a while, his quest to reach 100 wins became more important than the quality of fighters he was using to get there.

Don't get me wrong, I also feel Chavez is an all-time great. It's just that there's NO WAY he's 15th all-time to Trinidad's 49th. And Gomez at 63rd with one of the best alltime KO ratios in history?!? What are you smoking there, Britkid? Because he lost two fights? And Zarate, whom Gomez destroyed, is 25th? See, that's why I can't take your list seriously. Don't get me wrong, you've got some good fighters in there. Robinson's, Duran's, Monzon's, Arguello's and Hagler's rankings are well-deserved. But De la Hoya 22nd? Give me a frigging break!

Subjective, Britkid........ that's what it is. Subjective.

[raleights]

Not gonna say whether Hopkins deserves to be an alltime great or not

but he did duck Calzaghe and Jones for the rematch

[Bx730NY]

The answer is a definite NO!!! Very simple. If you don't prove yourself against the best competition out there (win or lose), you don't deserve to be called an all time great. I'm tired of hearing guys say they'll fight anybody, anytime and then when they're called out, they say there's not enough money in it for them. They go around saying that no one wants to fight them, then they turn down fights against those same guys they mentioned. I think Floyd is the best out there right now but I don't know that it's his legacy he's working on. I'm tired of him saying guys are ducking him and he'll fight anyone and then when they ask him, will you fight this guy? The answer is always the same. If the money is there. I'm so sick of it.

[SalTheButcher]

Not gonna say whether Hopkins deserves to be an alltime great or not

but he did duck Calzaghe and Jones for the rematch

NON-SENSE

if calzaghe wanted hopkins he could have dropped a few pounds and beat a #1 contender, B-HOP HAD MORE THAN ENOUGH BELTS FOR HIM TO BE ABLE TO CHOOSE WHICH #1 CONTENDER HE WANTED TO FACE

[raleights]

Don't you remember Joe calling him and Roy Jones out

Both guys said something along the lines of he doesn't wanna fight or he's not worth it lol - why? Of course Jones would of handed Joe his ass back then, but not Hopkins.

[cityboy]

Should a fighter who dodges another while they are both in their glory years still be considered one of the greatest ?

RJJ must be the ATG that has ducked most potentiel dangerous opponents. The same with B-Hop

[SalTheButcher]

Don't you remember Joe calling him and Roy Jones out

Both guys said something along the lines of he doesn't wanna fight or he's not worth it lol - why? Of course Jones would of handed Joe his a** back then, but not Hopkins.

but its like i said, if he REALLY wanted hopkins he could have moved down to MW and become #1 contender in any of the numerous titles b-hop held,

half the time b-hop was making a run at the record MW defenses thing, he had no reason to fight a fight that wouldnt have counted toward this...


i just think if calzaghe wants to talk all big now about having called out b-hop and that b-hop is afraid of him then people shouldnt be offended by my calzaghe jokes

[raleights]

why would I be offended by what you say about someone else lol

I just don't think Bernard is good enough to beat Joe - not fast enough - not smart enough - and he couldn't keep up with his pace (look at his pace in the taylor fights, Joe would make him fuckin dizzy)

and if Bernard is worried about having more title defenses than having the best fights possible, well he really can't be an alltime great in my useless opinion

[a4mrmarine]

Ofcourse Joe would beat B-hop now, he is old and past his prime. he and Tarver need to fight and yes I think and hope joe will beat the hell out of Tarver. BUt when he was calling B-Hop out , all he had to do was loose the weigth and fight him. Tarver will prove nothing if he beats B-hop.

[SimonH]

The length of time at "World Class" status (in your opinion, I might add), does nothing to disprove my point. By your own admission, Chavez was brought along differently than a lot of fighters nowadays. He plodded along, destroying totally inferior opposition for years, before getting quality opposition or even leaving the comforts of home in Mexico. By contrast, Tito, as with many world class fighters nowadays, was brought along much quicker. You're comparing apples and oranges if you go solely by record. Put Chavez in today's environment and throw him against a world champion 20 fights into his career, and see how he would have survived.

Even after Chavez began fighting quality fighters, he always managed to sprinkle in a few "Bozos" every now and then. After a while, his quest to reach 100 wins became more important than the quality of fighters he was using to get there.

Don't get me wrong, I also feel Chavez is an all-time great. It's just that there's NO WAY he's 15th all-time to Trinidad's 49th. And Gomez at 63rd with one of the best alltime KO ratios in history?!? What are you smoking there, Britkid? Because he lost two fights? And Zarate, whom Gomez destroyed, is 25th? See, that's why I can't take your list seriously. Don't get me wrong, you've got some good fighters in there. Robinson's, Duran's, Monzon's, Arguello's and Hagler's rankings are well-deserved. But De la Hoya 22nd? Give me a frigging break!

Subjective, Britkid........ that's what it is. Subjective.

Chavez won a fight with Mario Martinez, four years after turning pro, hardly an age. Trinidad beat Blocker three years after turning pro, there is hardly any difference, the only real difference is Chavez was a lot more active.

The same applied after Chavez beat Martinez, Chavez continued to fight at a pace of sometimes a fight every two months, while Trinidad fought at a pace more suited to this era, a fight every four months.

Ultimately there is no right or wrong way of becoming an excellent fighter, if you succeed. And both Chavez and Trinidad succeeded, it was just Chavez then stepped up a couple more levels and became a Great, while Trinidad merely became an all-time top 100 fighter.

[raleights]

Ofcourse Joe would beat B-hop now, he is old and past his prime. he and Tarver need to fight and yes I think and hope joe will beat the hell out of Tarver. BUt when he was calling B-Hop out , all he had to do was loose the weigth and fight him. Tarver will prove nothing if he beats B-hop.

I see what you're saying, but I always thought Bernard was entirely too small for a middleweight and was scared to go up. After beating Trinidad there was noone at middleweight, and Joe walking around at 200lbs when not training makes losing 8+ pounds of muscle hard. Like I said, in my useless opinion I don't think Hopkins could deal with the speed or the pace, prime or not. Hell Joe is nearly 34 and look at his last fight. Bernard never showed that kind of heart to go along with a brilliant boxing mind - thus he can't be an all time great, because every all time great showed us that skill/heart combined.