Despite all I've said against old fighters...

[landmine950]

Absolutely right.
Many fighters of the good ol' days were much better than the ones today.
It's just that most fighters now are pampered just too much and turned into brats. There are no more boxing ethics of the old where they had to watch their weight at all times, where boxer's worked out throughout the year unlike many boxers now who go on training just before the fights and back to boozing and partying after that, and most importantly, they were forced to fight mandatory opponents whereas now they're fights are 'managed' by their managers and promoters to make them look good.

This is where I patently disagree..
I think that like all sports athletes in boxers have steadily evolved.
Training, population growth, nutrition, skill development, amatuer programs, etc.etc.
That's why I always get myself into trouble here.
The farther back you go the poorer the boxer would do in modern times.
There are a few exceptions, of course, a fighter who could step into a "time machine" in 19xx and materialize in the ring in 2007 and compete against any top fighter. Fighters with "super" natural ability,strength etc. that MIGHT be enough to even the playing field for them, at least to some degree.
BUT for the LARGE majority of old fighters against a modern athelte...no chance, not even close.
Of course Lewis is a modern era fighter and In his prime was very good. I don't even think I'd call him great. I don't think I'm ready to start talking Prime vs Prime with Lewis. He only JUST retired!

Also to CUTMEMICK please try and avoid discouraging my enthusiasm for Valuev with all those pesky "facts". I took Valuev's side here, from the start ,long ago because every one took such pleasure in gangsh1tting on the guy. I'm sticking with him. Some one has to. I give the odd real opinion (big george etc) just to let you guys know I'm not totally off my nut!

[pacfan]

You've got some point there, my tough-talking karateka friend, but you've missed out on one important point. Unlike other sports, modern pampered brats don't thrive well in brutish sports like boxing cuz that's got nothing to do with modern sport science, just an ol' plain tough heart which the softee kids now don't have. That's what explains why the Eastern European fighters are doing well (and I'm not even talking about Valuev which is a completely different story) - they grew up, like our generation, in a life of 'hard knocks' that give them an tough heart to keep fighting and fighting, while the Westerns kid crumble under pressure cuz they don't have the guts to take those tough punishment...

Have a little respect for those old folks, pal. I used to think Ali was much overrated fighter just couple months or years back, but reviewing his old fights, especially those before 1975, I changed my mind. I can guarantee you that you'll sober up and change your mind in couple of years, believe me. I'll stake my membership here for that!



(Call me nuts if you wish but I'm an amateur psychic, I had a vision yesterday (Feb 12) of a big earthquake either in Japan or the Philippines. When my predictions come true, they usually do so within 1-2 weeks)

[boozeboxer]

That is crap man about heavywieght boxers today having better training today. Hell there aren't 5 that I can think of that are truly in shape and ready for a war. Most just have gobs of fat, and when they hit each other it just jiggles. i guess they have better nutrition though....

[Taeth]

Most of the best boxers nowadays like MAyweather and such use old school techniques... I think he and Roy JOnes Jr., and Pernell Whitaker have revolutionized the sport and incorporated (In mayweather, and Whitaker's case more defense), but they use the same training methods. I think athletes today are better, but the better ones at least right now aren't in boxing. Lewis was a better athlete IMO than Ali, but he was so much athletically better than everyone else during his era that Lennox didn't even really train against his opponents, and neither did Ali alot of the times like in Ali-Frazier 3 He assumed Frazier would be easy pickings because when he fought his style he had Frazier's number in the second fight. Don't get me wrong Lennox Lewis, Evander Holyfied, and prime Mike Tyson give them a hard fight, but the guys right now... no way. I think Frazier has a hard time with any of the bigger heavyweights who hit harder because he is so small, but thats why I commented on him doing well against any skill boxer because of his pressure, and relentlessness.

[ICB]

Most of the best boxers nowadays like MAyweather and such use old school techniques... I think he and Roy JOnes Jr., and Pernell Whitaker have revolutionized the sport and incorporated (In mayweather, and Whitaker's case more defense), but they use the same training methods. I think athletes today are better, but the better ones at least right now aren't in boxing. Lewis was a better athlete IMO than Ali, but he was so much athletically better than everyone else during his era that Lennox didn't even really train against his opponents, and neither did Ali alot of the times like in Ali-Frazier 3 He assumed Frazier would be easy pickings because when he fought his style he had Frazier's number in the second fight. Don't get me wrong Lennox Lewis, Evander Holyfied, and prime Mike Tyson give them a hard fight, but the guys right now... no way. I think Frazier has a hard time with any of the bigger heavyweights who hit harder because he is so small, but thats why I commented on him doing well against any skill boxer because of his pressure, and relentlessness.

i disagree totally with lewis being better athlete than ali

[killersheep]

Absolutely right.
Many fighters of the good ol' days were much better than the ones today.
It's just that most fighters now are pampered just too much and turned into brats. There are no more boxing ethics of the old where they had to watch their weight at all times, where boxer's worked out throughout the year unlike many boxers now who go on training just before the fights and back to boozing and partying after that, and most importantly, they were forced to fight mandatory opponents whereas now they're fights are 'managed' by their managers and promoters to make them look good.

This is where I patently disagree..
I think that like all sports athletes in boxers have steadily evolved.
Training, population growth, nutrition, skill development, amatuer programs, etc.etc.
That's why I always get myself into trouble here.
The farther back you go the poorer the boxer would do in modern times.
There are a few exceptions, of course, a fighter who could step into a "time machine" in 19xx and materialize in the ring in 2007 and compete against any top fighter. Fighters with "super" natural ability,strength etc. that MIGHT be enough to even the playing field for them, at least to some degree.
BUT for the LARGE majority of old fighters against a modern athelte...no chance, not even close.
Of course Lewis is a modern era fighter and In his prime was very good. I don't even think I'd call him great. I don't think I'm ready to start talking Prime vs Prime with Lewis. He only JUST retired!

Also to CUTMEMICK please try and avoid discouraging my enthusiasm for Valuev with all those pesky "facts". I took Valuev's side here, from the start ,long ago because every one took such pleasure in gangsh1tting on the guy. I'm sticking with him. Some one has to. I give the odd real opinion (big george etc) just to let you guys know I'm not totally off my nut!

[motorcitycobra]

I'm new on here lads, that guy landmine950 is he serious when he talks about Valuyev? I don't think he is just think he's a really clued up guy with a sports degree and he sure knows how to wind you lot up. CC to landmine if i could you,re a funny guy.

[Taeth]

Most of the best boxers nowadays like MAyweather and such use old school techniques... I think he and Roy JOnes Jr., and Pernell Whitaker have revolutionized the sport and incorporated (In mayweather, and Whitaker's case more defense), but they use the same training methods. I think athletes today are better, but the better ones at least right now aren't in boxing. Lewis was a better athlete IMO than Ali, but he was so much athletically better than everyone else during his era that Lennox didn't even really train against his opponents, and neither did Ali alot of the times like in Ali-Frazier 3 He assumed Frazier would be easy pickings because when he fought his style he had Frazier's number in the second fight. Don't get me wrong Lennox Lewis, Evander Holyfied, and prime Mike Tyson give them a hard fight, but the guys right now... no way. I think Frazier has a hard time with any of the bigger heavyweights who hit harder because he is so small, but thats why I commented on him doing well against any skill boxer because of his pressure, and relentlessness.

i disagree totally with lewis being better athlete than ali

How so? He was way stronger, and almost as fast. In any other sport he would be far more valuable than Ali, but who knows if Ali got the proper nutrition how big he would have been... point is IMO Lewis is a more versatile athlete, and could cross over to more sports.

[landmine950]

I'm new on here lads, that guy landmine950 is he serious when he talks about Valuyev? I don't think he is just think he's a really clued up guy with a sports degree and he sure knows how to wind you lot up. CC to landmine if i could you,re a funny guy.

Please don't reveal anymore of my secrets.
Valuev and I have retired KGB agents ready to take you out at a moments notice!

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

That is crap man about heavywieght boxers today having better training today. Hell there aren't 5 that I can think of that are truly in shape and ready for a war. Most just have gobs of fat, and when they hit each other it just jiggles. i guess they have better nutrition though....

Which brings me straight back to my eternal campaign for a super-heavyweight division...

Seriously! The only reason 90% of toady’s heavies appear out of shape is because their now fighting guys who are 4 inches taller and 2-10 stone heavier!!

In the 60's 70' AND 80's you never EVER had that. And I for one don’t see the positive side to it at this point in 2007.


Another issue, which only adds to the whole dynamic, is when we come across those 215lb fighters who would surely, in this current state of affairs, be better of at cruiser but want more money and more fame.... Which is fine until you have to face someone who weights 17st+.. Its just never gonna happen.

I can see where people get off with the whole David & Goliath thing but hear me out... My issue isn’t with the trying; it’s with the lack of option to not have to.

They should start a 230lbs+ division... I’m sure with that in place you’d see alot more fighters coming to fight in far more suitable condition... Overall, to me it would be far more respectable and would do extremely well to halt this re-emerging theory that Boxing is a place for Circus side-shows.

Yes I’m a pessimist. Heavyweight boxing is still being dragged back into the dark ages.

[sanj16]

Sure training and sport science have moved on boxing a little, but nowhere as near as much as other sports. This is mainly because the core values are the same. The methods used today to train are remarkably similar to those used by the old school. Just look at footage of PBF training, adn then SRR back in the day. Still have to pound the street, work the abs with the medicine ball, jump the rope, spin the speed ball, hit the heavy bag and do the rounds in sparing.
Look at the backgrounds of some of the best and toughest fighters, Manny P, Morales etc

[ICB]

Most of the best boxers nowadays like MAyweather and such use old school techniques... I think he and Roy JOnes Jr., and Pernell Whitaker have revolutionized the sport and incorporated (In mayweather, and Whitaker's case more defense), but they use the same training methods. I think athletes today are better, but the better ones at least right now aren't in boxing. Lewis was a better athlete IMO than Ali, but he was so much athletically better than everyone else during his era that Lennox didn't even really train against his opponents, and neither did Ali alot of the times like in Ali-Frazier 3 He assumed Frazier would be easy pickings because when he fought his style he had Frazier's number in the second fight. Don't get me wrong Lennox Lewis, Evander Holyfied, and prime Mike Tyson give them a hard fight, but the guys right now... no way. I think Frazier has a hard time with any of the bigger heavyweights who hit harder because he is so small, but thats why I commented on him doing well against any skill boxer because of his pressure, and relentlessness.

i disagree totally with lewis being better athlete than ali

How so? He was way stronger, and almost as fast. In any other sport he would be far more valuable than Ali, but who knows if Ali got the proper nutrition how big he would have been... point is IMO Lewis is a more versatile athlete, and could cross over to more sports.

lewis wernt even close to ali in speed ali had much quicker jab hand speed footwork he was much much quicker than lewis yea lewis is stronger but he is alot bigger than ali thats about it

[ICB]

[youtube=425,350]jU2YPXghFkU[/youtube]


look how quick ali was there id love you to show me clip where lewis comes even close to that speed

[Taeth]

Go check for yourself his younger years... He isn't as fast, but he is close enough... He never used as much footwork as Ali, and as a 245 pound guy is understandable... you simply would get too tired for no reason. Ali's style relied on him using his footspeed to get him in position to throw punches from unorthodox angles.

[RozzySean]

Go check for yourself his younger years... He isn't as fast, but he is close enough... He never used as much footwork as Ali, and as a 245 pound guy is understandable... you simply would get too tired for no reason. Ali's style relied on him using his footspeed to get him in position to throw punches from unorthodox angles.

I've been rewatching some Lewis fights lately, and I'm amazed at the handspeed he shows at times. He has always been favorite of mine, and looking back at his career now, I'm even more impressed with his style and ability. Maybe I'm nuts, but I think he would give Ali fits. I'm not sure I agree that Lewis is a better pure athlete than Ali, but taking into consideration size, reach, skill, AND athletiscm, Lewis matches up well against Ali. It's hard to know, because fighters like Lewis just didn't exist in that era.