Tyson vs Mirko

[Heavy D]

What I dont get is that in every single MMA vs boxer argument, nobody ever seems to take into account that it IS possible for a boxer to learn other aspects of martial arts. I'd consider myself more a boxer than anything else, but that doesn't mean I can't roll a little bit.

And for the argument that "nobody would try to box with a boxer"...very few people tried to roll with a Gracie, or trade kicks with Mirko. That's why fighters win. You MAKE them fight your fight. Tyson wouldn't try to out grapple Royce, and Royce wouldn't try to outbox Tyson. It would boil down to who is able to make the fight stay where they want it. When Royce couldn't get the fights where he wanted, he lost. In all honesty, it didn't take the mixed martial arts world terribly long to learn to counter BJJ. Then they learned to counter wrestling. Now, they have to learn to counter a striker who WON'T go to the ground.

Tyson would NEVER come into MMA and refuse to learn the other aspects....to do so would be suicide. But if he can learn to sprawl and clinch and defend subs, he has some of the greatest striking ability the world has ever seen. Imagine a Chuck Liddell who can actually box...Tyson, if he put the work into it, could have been potentially the most devestating force the fighting world had ever seen.

[Von Milash]

there is really no reason that an MMA fighter couldn't do exactly what Lewis/Holyfield/Douglass all did to Tyson. Simply tie him up on the inside. If these three boxers were able to tie him up and neutralize him while wearing boxing gloves on the inside than why couldn't a top MMA HW. Especially considering the amount of time they spend on muay thai and fighting from the clinch. Some day when the money is right maybe we will see a world class boxer get in against a top MMA and we will find out how they would fair. I still maintain that boxing's skill set although very helpful does not directly correlate to mma striking and that being one dimensional regardless of how dominant you are at that one dimension makes you very vulnerable in MMA

Those guys are a TON better at tying a guy up on the inside. It's also a lot easier to tie a guy up who's wearing 10 or 12oz gloves vs. 4.

Tyson never faced BJJ. But BJJ never faced a guy who hit as hard and fast as Tyson... or Evander, or Lewis, or even good old James Buster Douglas.

We'll soon see. I imagine Shannon Briggs might make the leap.. he already fought in K1 so maybe we'll see what he can do elsewhere. 6'4", 240 of pure muscle. That dwarfs even Fedor at 6' 230 with a gut.

[Munkymagic]

That dwarfs even Fedor at 6' 230 with a gut.

LOL dunno why but that just made me laugh. Its true though

[Munkymagic]

Are we still talking about Tyson the boxer here with no training in any other art (even sprawling) or are we talking about Tyson who has cross trained a bit? Because they are very different dicsussions

[VictorCharlie]

What I dont get is that in every single MMA vs boxer argument, nobody ever seems to take into account that it IS possible for a boxer to learn other aspects of martial arts. I'd consider myself more a boxer than anything else, but that doesn't mean I can't roll a little bit.

And for the argument that "nobody would try to box with a boxer"...very few people tried to roll with a Gracie, or trade kicks with Mirko. That's why fighters win. You MAKE them fight your fight. Tyson wouldn't try to out grapple Royce, and Royce wouldn't try to outbox Tyson. It would boil down to who is able to make the fight stay where they want it. When Royce couldn't get the fights where he wanted, he lost. In all honesty, it didn't take the mixed martial arts world terribly long to learn to counter BJJ. Then they learned to counter wrestling. Now, they have to learn to counter a striker who WON'T go to the ground.

Tyson would NEVER come into MMA and refuse to learn the other aspects....to do so would be suicide. But if he can learn to sprawl and clinch and defend subs, he has some of the greatest striking ability the world has ever seen. Imagine a Chuck Liddell who can actually box...Tyson, if he put the work into it, could have been potentially the most devestating force the fighting world had ever seen.

Heavy, typically this argument comes out of someone suggesting that a boxer could simpyl get into an MMA ring and win. The topic wasn't if Tyson had spent an extended period of time cross training in multiple disciplines how would he fair against Mirko. Yall can go on and on about Tyson if you want. I personally think he is the most overrated fighter ever. But thats another topic. Its not entirely correct to say no one attempted to role with Gracie. He was defeated in Pride by Yoshida(ruled a draw but anyone who saw it knows the truth) and Hughes in UFC. The fights were almost all on the ground. Hunt defeated Mirko in Pride in a slugfest. Matt Hughes might have lost to GSP in their rematch anyway but he'd of lasted longer if he hadn't tried to trade punches. The point is fighters even great ones attempt to go against their bettter judgement all the time. Although it didn't take MMA terribly long to learn to counter BJJ fighters everyone in MMA spends a considerable amount of time learning it. You can't be successful w/o a general level. The whole argument about "what if chuck could box" is crap. Once again the boxing skill set and techniques do not directly correlate to MMA striking. Chuck is an extremely accurate and devastating puncher and seems to be doing pretty well with his style. His striking doesn't look like boxing, b/c id ISN'T and it shouldn't be. A boxer would have to make some basic changes in technique in a MMA ring. So sure a top level boxer with good amount of time cross training would be successful in MMA. But he wouldn't really be just a boxer anymore would he?

[Munkymagic]

What I dont get is that in every single MMA vs boxer argument, nobody ever seems to take into account that it IS possible for a boxer to learn other aspects of martial arts. I'd consider myself more a boxer than anything else, but that doesn't mean I can't roll a little bit.

And for the argument that "nobody would try to box with a boxer"...very few people tried to roll with a Gracie, or trade kicks with Mirko. That's why fighters win. You MAKE them fight your fight. Tyson wouldn't try to out grapple Royce, and Royce wouldn't try to outbox Tyson. It would boil down to who is able to make the fight stay where they want it. When Royce couldn't get the fights where he wanted, he lost. In all honesty, it didn't take the mixed martial arts world terribly long to learn to counter BJJ. Then they learned to counter wrestling. Now, they have to learn to counter a striker who WON'T go to the ground.

Tyson would NEVER come into MMA and refuse to learn the other aspects....to do so would be suicide. But if he can learn to sprawl and clinch and defend subs, he has some of the greatest striking ability the world has ever seen. Imagine a Chuck Liddell who can actually box...Tyson, if he put the work into it, could have been potentially the most devestating force the fighting world had ever seen.

Heavy, typically this argument comes out of someone suggesting that a boxer could simpyl get into an MMA ring and win. The topic wasn't if Tyson had spent an extended period of time cross training in multiple disciplines how would he fair against Mirko. Yall can go on and on about Tyson if you want. I personally think he is the most overrated fighter ever. But thats another topic. Its not entirely correct to say no one attempted to role with Gracie. He was defeated in Pride by Yoshida(ruled a draw but anyone who saw it knows the truth) and Hughes in UFC. The fights were almost all on the ground. Hunt defeated Mirko in Pride in a slugfest. Matt Hughes might have lost to GSP in their rematch anyway but he'd of lasted longer if he hadn't tried to trade punches. The point is fighters even great ones attempt to go against their bettter judgement all the time. Although it didn't take MMA terribly long to learn to counter BJJ fighters everyone in MMA spends a considerable amount of time learning it. You can't be successful w/o a general level. The whole argument about "what if chuck could box" is crap. Once again the boxing skill set and techniques do not directly correlate to MMA striking. Chuck is an extremely accurate and devastating puncher and seems to be doing pretty well with his style. His striking doesn't look like boxing, b/c id ISN'T and it shouldn't be. A boxer would have to make some basic changes in technique in a MMA ring. So sure a top level boxer with good amount of time cross training would be successful in MMA. But he wouldn't really be just a boxer anymore would he?

CC...that ties in with what i said above.

[VictorCharlie]

there is really no reason that an MMA fighter couldn't do exactly what Lewis/Holyfield/Douglass all did to Tyson. Simply tie him up on the inside. If these three boxers were able to tie him up and neutralize him while wearing boxing gloves on the inside than why couldn't a top MMA HW. Especially considering the amount of time they spend on muay thai and fighting from the clinch. Some day when the money is right maybe we will see a world class boxer get in against a top MMA and we will find out how they would fair. I still maintain that boxing's skill set although very helpful does not directly correlate to mma striking and that being one dimensional regardless of how dominant you are at that one dimension makes you very vulnerable in MMA

Those guys are a TON better at tying a guy up on the inside. It's also a lot easier to tie a guy up who's wearing 10 or 12oz gloves vs. 4.

Tyson never faced BJJ. But BJJ never faced a guy who hit as hard and fast as Tyson... or Evander, or Lewis, or even good old James Buster Douglas.

We'll soon see. I imagine Shannon Briggs might make the leap.. he already fought in K1 so maybe we'll see what he can do elsewhere. 6'4", 240 of pure muscle. That dwarfs even Fedor at 6' 230 with a gut.

What makes them any better at tying someone up? How do you know that NO one in MMA hits as hard or fast as Evander/Lewis/Tyson/Douglas? I love how MMA fighters are professional fighters just like boxers and spend hours in the gym training on striking just like a boxer does, some have been in martial arts since childhood but its impossible that they might have equal handspeed and power as a top level boxer. That guys can spend years doing muay thai and fighting in the clinch but are far inferior to a boxer in tying someone up. There are numerous MMA fighters with oustanding KO ratio's but its inconcievable that they could hit just as hard as a boxer? If its possible for a boxer to spend some time working on his sprawl and be able to handle world class wrestlers and submission artists than its equally possible that a professional fighter who works on striking everyday would be able to hang with a world class boxer. No?

[Brockton Bomber]

What makes them any better at tying someone up? How do you know that NO one in MMA hits as hard or fast as Evander/Lewis/Tyson/Douglas? I love how MMA fighters are professional fighters just like boxers and spend hours in the gym training on striking just like a boxer does, some have been in martial arts since childhood but its impossible that they might have equal handspeed and power as a top level boxer. That guys can spend years doing muay thai and fighting in the clinch but are far inferior to a boxer in tying someone up. There are numerous MMA fighters with oustanding KO ratio's but its inconcievable that they could hit just as hard as a boxer? If its possible for a boxer to spend some time working on his sprawl and be able to handle world class wrestlers and submission artists than its equally possible that a professional fighter who works on striking everyday would be able to hang with a world class boxer. No?
[/quote]

Do I hate it when some asks questions and then answers them?

Yes. Yes, I do.

[VictorCharlie]

good insightful comment bomber. you must have spent some time and put alot of thought into your post. If you got a opinion or view point I'm more than interested in hearing it..but if your just interested in being a smart ass dont't waste our time

[Von Milash]

Van, show me one mma guy who can throw combos like any of those boxers. and show me one mma guy who can simple take the fight down at will. babalu tried to take down chuck and got killed. and show me one fight that doesn't start with stand-up. MMA punching is as crude and sloppy as it gets. No jab, or pawing at best, they go for one shot KO's, etc. Mirko, who probably could transition to top level boxing, is the only guy who's ever impressed me with his hands. and we all know how good he is. Like I said before, I'll give you mirko and fedor... they'd have a shot, but do you really think gracie back in his prime could have survived even 30seconds with fasts as fast as Tyson's?

I'm also not sure why everyone thinks it's so hard to sprawl. It aint THAT hard. It's a HELL of a lot harder to teach 15years worth of boxing that it is a sprawl.

[VictorCharlie]

Von I don't know why you expect striking to resemble boxing. They aren't the same thing. I'd say in a championship boxing match a fighter gets hit by 5-10 good flush shots that aren't jabs per round. This is not acceptable in MMA fights w/ 4 oz gloves. You don't have to be earnie shavers or even chris byrd to turn someones lights out w/ 4 oz gloves. Almost everything in boxing works off a good jab this simply isn't the case in MMA. Chuck is a very precise puncher who has excellent timing, hand speed and use of angles. Yes most of his punches are looping. This is b/c he uses a wide base and utilizes his reach and height by circling on the outside of his opponent. Hence a wide punch. Many of MMA's best strikers techniques are very different than top boxers b/c it takes a different technique to be successful. Phil Baroni, Vitor Belfort both have excellent hand speed and power. Alexsander Emelianko has great hand speed as well as KO power. Arlovski is another fighter with quick hands and power. If you can find Jeremy Williams's MMA fights watch them. Jeremy is a lifel long boxer but his technique definately didn't resemble a classic boxing style. Once again there is more to keeping a fight standing up than just a good sprawl.

[spanky-banky]

tyson is probably the best street fighter to grace the planet earth.......i dont think a young tyson would have much trouble with these mma boobs........tyson was an animal he would have loved this kind of fight

[Heavy D]

Not to pick out the one example, but Belfort was a boxer. Former LW champ Jens Pulver was a boxer. How did Sylvia become champion? There are plenty of giants in MMA, and most of them suck. It was his ability to utilize his freak size through superior boxing. How did Couture beat Liddell and Sylvia? It wasn't with his wrestling...it was his boxing. How does Cro Cop win his fights? His boxing, which he uses to set up his killer LHK. Without his boxing skills, it would be useless.

Munky, I said "very few", not nobody. The examples you listed were the exception, not the rule. Those were cases where the other person was simply better than their opponent in that given field. Hughes is simply better on the ground than Royce...his strength and wrestling skills simply overshadow Royce's. Hunt isn't the best technical fighter, but his chin and strength are just too much for even the mighty Cro Cop....hell, he ate a direct hit from his LHK, the most feared strike in all MMA, and didn't even flinch. Even in K1, he just fell over and laughed at himself as he stood.

And exactly what this thread was about, Tyson directly or Tyson with some training, I don't remember and am too lazy to check. Either way...I honestly feel Tyson with NO training would win the majority of his fights, even against a good deal of top tier fighters. Tyson WITH training would decimate almost anybody I could think of.

I guess either way, this question will never be answered, because even if Tyson WERE to come over to MMA, he's second rate, if even. He's been beaten by shlubs at his own game over and over.

[Von Milash]

cc D. It looks like it's you ans me vs munky and Van. lol. I think we can take 'em.


Van, the reason so few people equate boxing with mma "striking" is because so few mma practitioners do it well, or even properly. MMA "boxing" (what you call striking) is extremely sloppy and really nothing more than two guys slugging it out a la bar/street fight. But how many times have we heard Joe Rogan say things like, "and his BOXING has ccome very far." And as D said, they guys who do box well typically do very well in the sport, and they're not even what the IBF/WBO/WBC/WBA would consider GOOD boxers.

I'm not going to say take a boxer and let him dominate. I do, however, think a top boxer would win most of the time (7-8/10).. I'm not stupid or ignorant or shortsighted enough to say that monsters like randleman or coleman couldn't take them down. Sure they could. But i'll put money on that task being made magnitudes more difficult by the boxer's ability to land shot after shot when they do try to come in. All boxers can box from the outside. It's what you learn first. When Chuck and Mirko keep a guy at bay and avoid the takedown, they're utilizing their better ability to outbox their opponent form the outside. A top boxer could easily do the same, if not more effectively. And like I've always said, teach them the sprawl, which, let's be honest, is a natural reaction and not as hard to "teach" as so many people claim it to be, and they'd be monsters.

[VictorCharlie]

Not to pick out the one example, but Belfort was a boxer. Former LW champ Jens Pulver was a boxer. How did Sylvia become champion? There are plenty of giants in MMA, and most of them suck. It was his ability to utilize his freak size through superior boxing. How did Couture beat Liddell and Sylvia? It wasn't with his wrestling...it was his boxing. How does Cro Cop win his fights? His boxing, which he uses to set up his killer LHK. Without his boxing skills, it would be useless.

Munky, I said "very few", not nobody. The examples you listed were the exception, not the rule. Those were cases where the other person was simply better than their opponent in that given field. Hughes is simply better on the ground than Royce...his strength and wrestling skills simply overshadow Royce's. Hunt isn't the best technical fighter, but his chin and strength are just too much for even the mighty Cro Cop....hell, he ate a direct hit from his LHK, the most feared strike in all MMA, and didn't even flinch. Even in K1, he just fell over and laughed at himself as he stood.

And exactly what this thread was about, Tyson directly or Tyson with some training, I don't remember and am too lazy to check. Either way...I honestly feel Tyson with NO training would win the majority of his fights, even against a good deal of top tier fighters. Tyson WITH training would decimate almost anybody I could think of.

I guess either way, this question will never be answered, because even if Tyson WERE to come over to MMA, he's second rate, if even. He's been beaten by shlubs at his own game over and over.

I'll give you Belfort as having a considerable amateur boxing record, but he only has one pro fight(a year ago i think) and in all honesty his great boxing background has only lead to a average MMA career with some decent wins and some devastating losses. Saying Pulver has a history as a boxer is misleading as well. He grew up as a wrestler in both HS and college. I don't think he had an amateur career(i could be wrong), and his 4 pro fight oppositions combined record was 4-4. I like Jens, but he himself has been thumped in a standup game by Sakurai and others. And come one are you really going to attest Randy's victory to boxing? A snapping leg kick followed by a "sloppy" looping right is due to traditional boxing? It looked pretty similar to another sloppy puncher Arlovski when he tagged Tim. But if Tim's boxing is so good and ofcourse he is so much taller then why did he get put on his back so many times? Yall crack me up. Listening to yall all MMA fighters throw sloppy punches and have horrible techniques yet anytime someone wins a fight from a punch it was b/c of their great boxing. Pick a side guys. Either they all can't hit the broad side of a barn with punches or some of them are very precise and hard hitting fighters whose sport is different than boxing and therefore their style is different. I'm not going to argue that "boxing" is a more technical standup sport, but I think that is exactly why you percieve all of these guys as being sloppy. B/c of MMA's versatility the striking is a little bit more raw. The minute technicalities and details of boxing get lost b/c of the use of kicks, knees, elbows, takedowns, takedown defense, fighting from the clinch. Stance, movement, use of combinations and style of punching all change when the above are taken into account.

Von, considering that almost none of the top MMA fighters in the world have gone on to box I don't think we can really say that they dont' box well. All of these guys do bag work, speed bags, mitts, spar etc. Its not like they don't train everyday in many of the same things that boxers do. I maintain that an untrained boxer in an MMA fight has only a punchers chance. A trained boxer..well really isn't a boxer. That is what MMA has taught us is that you have to be well versed. If he is cross training than he is a mixed martial artist with a background in a boxing. I think you underestimate the necessary training for Judo/Sambo/BJJ/Wrestling/kickboxing etc. I guess if you feel that boxing takes years of training to master but that you can be at least proficient in the above disciplines in a couple of months than it really isn't a suprise that you think a boxer could just walk through these guys. I say again that a sprawl is not the complete answer to takedown defense nor is it something you master in a weekend.

lastly we will have to agree to disagree on Tyson. overrated loser who doesn't even make it in my top 10 hw's. use Jermain Taylor at 170/185, RJJ at 155, Evander at 205, Vitali/Ali/Joe Louis at HW with good cross training and I might tend to agree.