Do you guys Agree with Max Kellerman

[amat]

Mosley was pretty much in his prime the second time around. And not many fighters have beaten top fighters in their prime because...top fighters in their prime just don't get beat often.

[tedsares]

They are former world champions so if they dont make the hall of fame doesnt mean they arnt or werent good fighters.

Good observation. Bert Sugar is not that good a fighter.

[chamiley]

Max kellerman is a very knowledgeable boxing pundit but he has said some absurd things in the past, the most recent was that "it was a virtuoso performance for floyd against oscar". I don't know what fight kellerman was watching but it was a lot closer than that could have even been a draw. and recently he also compared mallignaggi to Billy conn and that was just outlandish.

Oscar beat trinidad, mosley, vargas, quartey in their prime, for a boxing analyst kellerman should separate himself from the ignorant people who judge a fighter strictly with the face value of their record.

[LegendBoxing65]

As everyone's opinion here is on point & valid...basically because it's their opinion...I gotta chuck mine in.

He went above & beyond the call of duty against Quartey, Vargas, & Tito & beat all of them in their primes & when they were on the cusp of greatness.

Honestly...I usually agree with Max...but not here.

Max has a cornucopia of knowledge that is genrally spot on & overflowing...but he's wrong here.

Do you really think Quartey and Vargas are on the same level as the top guys Oscar has lost to though? B-Hop, Floyd, Shane . . . . Those guys are all first-ballot HOF material. Tito is too, so I credit Oscar there. But Quartey and Vargas just aren't.

No Vargas is not on the level of those guys, and Quartey is far from it. But I think the talk of Oscar not being great is not fair. He is not top 20 all time great and how can he be, but he is good. His power left him at 140. I do not even think Tito is in the B-hop, Shane,Floyd class. Who did he really beat? Joppy? He almost lost to Oscar and lost to Hopkins and Winky bad.

[THE THIRD MAN]

Poor decisions or not, fact is Oscar is 0-5 in super fights!
Trinidad was a poor decision.
Mosley 1 he lost
Mosley 2 was a poor decision
Hopkins he lost
Floyd he lost

These fights are his only super fights, Whitaker and Chavez were past their best and Quartey although unbeaten at the time isn't on the elite list.
To his credit he has fought the best out there but has no big W next to anyone in Superfights!
Kellerman is probably right!

[LegendBoxing65]

how do you guys rate Mosley then since he beat Oscar twice but no one else. I know he beat Vargas but Vargas is starting to look like a measuring stick on who knocks him out fastest. None of the guys who are boxing now have really been the king of the whole thing like Sugar Ray Leonard was when Ray beat all of his generation- Ray was 5-1-1 against the guys who were Benitez,Hearns,Duran,Hagler. Bernard has been the most dominant knocking out Oscar and Tito yet he was too big for Oscar.. I am not sure any of them have really shown alot of domination except for Bernard who I think is not in the group because of size. Although they all look good against Vargas. Vargas seems to be the highlight clip for the three of them Tito, Mosley and Oscar. I hope Mayweather comes along and beats Mosley. I know he would fight Tito yet Tito in my mind is pretty big. But if he beat Tito, Mosley and Oscar, and then maybe Winky, he would be the main guy like Ray was and go down very well. Since no one else has really dominated. Mosley lost to Forrest twice. Oscar lost 5 top fights, Tito lost to Bernard and Winky. No one is dominating.. What is missing now is knockouts which would sort of be a claim of domination.. That is where Bernard comes out ahead. And since they all knocked out Vargas you have to think that maybe Vargas is not a guy people should be impressed with if they beat him. Vargas seems to be a guy who guys beat if they qualify for being in the top money bracket but nothing else. So who do you guys think is the leader of the current generation of Mayweather,Mosley,Tito,Oscar,Winky,Bernard?

[The Rookie Fan]

how do you guys rate Mosley then since he beat Oscar twice but no one else. I know he beat Vargas but Vargas is starting to look like a measuring stick on who knocks him out fastest. None of the guys who are boxing now have really been the king of the whole thing like Sugar Ray Leonard was when Ray beat all of his generation- Ray was 5-1-1 against the guys who were Benitez,Hearns,Duran,Hagler. Bernard has been the most dominant knocking out Oscar and Tito yet he was too big for Oscar.. I am not sure any of them have really shown alot of domination except for Bernard who I think is not in the group because of size. Although they all look good against Vargas. Vargas seems to be the highlight clip for the three of them Tito, Mosley and Oscar. I hope Mayweather comes along and beats Mosley. I know he would fight Tito yet Tito in my mind is pretty big. But if he beat Tito, Mosley and Oscar, and then maybe Winky, he would be the main guy like Ray was and go down very well. Since no one else has really dominated. Mosley lost to Forrest twice. Oscar lost 5 top fights, Tito lost to Bernard and Winky. No one is dominating.. What is missing now is knockouts which would sort of be a claim of domination.. That is where Bernard comes out ahead. And since they all knocked out Vargas you have to think that maybe Vargas is not a guy people should be impressed with if they beat him. Vargas seems to be a guy who guys beat if they qualify for being in the top money bracket but nothing else. So who do you guys think is the leader of the current generation of Mayweather,Mosley,Tito,Oscar,Winky,Bernard?

I think Floyd is the new generation and should not be counted as part of the last era of Mously Oscar Tito B-Hop. The fact is all those guys are past their prime and a win against any of them would not change his status at the moment.

I do agree with Kellerman when he sais Oscar has not beat an elite fighter in his prime. I think Oscar showed that he could beat Tito but he didn't do it. He showed that he could beat Mously but he didn't do it. To his credit he has alwais made it a close tough fight but he alwais came a little short in the end.

As for your list. I would rate them like this:

Maywether
B-Hop
Tito
Mously
Oscar

[shza]

As for your list. I would rate them like this:

Maywether
B-Hop
Tito
Mously
Oscar

I rate them:

Mayweather
B-Hop
*Winky Wright*
Mosley
Oscar
Tito

I can't credit Tito for the "win" over Oscar. No way he should have won on points. And once you take that W from him, I don't see how you possibly put him above any of these other guys. I think you have to put him in the place you wanted to put Oscar: never beat an elite fighter in his prime. Seriously, I think Tito is far and away the most one-dimensional guy on this list, and possibly a full step down from the rest of them.

[The Rookie Fan]

As for your list. I would rate them like this:

Maywether
B-Hop
Tito
Mously
Oscar

I rate them:

Mayweather
B-Hop
*Winky Wright*
Mosley
Oscar
Tito

I can't credit Tito for the "win" over Oscar. No way he should have won on points. And once you take that W from him, I don't see how you possibly put him above any of these other guys. I think you have to put him in the place you wanted to put Oscar: never beat an elite fighter in his prime. Seriously, I think Tito is far and away the most one-dimensional guy on this list, and possibly a full step down from the rest of them.

I'm sorry but I disagree. Tito is criticized terribly for his fight with Wright but Wright had the perfect style for Tito and Tito was passed his prime and over his weight class.

At 147 there was no one better than him. Fine take the out the win over Oscar, lets call it a draw, which is what I think it should have been, now tell me what has Oscar or Mously done to make them better than Tito?? I remember them fighting eachother and thinking they looked like to amateurs throwing flurries at eachother and the deafens went out the window. If eather of them would've tried to box the other it would have been much easier fight. And if eather of them fought Tito in the same way they fought eachother they would've had their a**es handed to them inside of 8 rounds.

If you take every common opponent that they have, with the exception of Winky, Tito did far better than both Mously and DLH and Tito got them first when they were still young, hungry and undefeated.

I really would have loved to see Tito fight Mously, it is the only guy he didn't fight because he came up at the same time Tito moved to 154. I think Tito would KhimTFO.

[shza]

As for your list. I would rate them like this:

Maywether
B-Hop
Tito
Mously
Oscar

I rate them:

Mayweather
B-Hop
*Winky Wright*
Mosley
Oscar
Tito

I can't credit Tito for the "win" over Oscar. No way he should have won on points. And once you take that W from him, I don't see how you possibly put him above any of these other guys. I think you have to put him in the place you wanted to put Oscar: never beat an elite fighter in his prime. Seriously, I think Tito is far and away the most one-dimensional guy on this list, and possibly a full step down from the rest of them.

I'm sorry but I disagree. Tito is criticized terribly for his fight with Wright but Wright had the perfect style for Tito and Tito was passed his prime and over his weight class.

Tito is naturally bigger than both Shane and Oscar--this "out of his weight class" thing is silly. He lost 12 straight rounds to Winky at 154--the same weight at which Mosley (in the first fight, at least; I think in both) beat Oscar far more convincingly than Tito did.

If any of these three gets an excuse for losses at 154, it's Shane. He's way smaller than those guys.

At 147 there was no one better than him. Fine take the out the win over Oscar, lets call it a draw, which is what I think it should have been, now tell me what has Oscar or Mously done to make them better than Tito??

Well, they're just far more multi-dimensional fighters. If you want specifics: (1) Mosley beat Oscar clearly in their first fight. Tito was not able to do that. (2) Oscar beat Tito. I don't see a draw there. And I see what could have been yet another total domination of Tito (a la Winky) if Oscar had just kept up what he had done the rest of the fight. There was no reason to worry at that point--Tito hadn't landed anything scary and wasn't going to. Oscar could easily have won that fight 118-110.

I remember them fighting eachother and thinking they looked like to amateurs throwing flurries at eachother and the deafens went out the window. If eather of them would've tried to box the other it would have been much easier fight. And if eather of them fought Tito in the same way they fought eachother they would've had their a**es handed to them inside of 8 rounds.

That's silly. Obviously they wouldn't have fought the same way against Tito that they did against each other. We don't even have to speculate--we have evidence (Oscar vs. Tito).

If you take every common opponent that they have, with the exception of Winky, Tito did far better than both Mously and DLH and Tito got them first when they were still young, hungry and undefeated.

Why except Winky? That fight was especially telling re Tito. But I disagree anyway.

Common opponents:

Shane/Tito - Oscar, Winky, Vargas. Let's forget about Vargas. Obviously Shane handled him easier, but Vargas was well beyond shot at that point. But as to the other two, Shane looked better against BOTH of them.

Oscar/Tito - B-Hop, Vargas. We can discount Vargas again since Tito had already broken him (some say) and he was tremendously juiced on steroids against Oscar. W/r/t B-hop, yes he finished Oscar earlier than he did Tito, but up until that point Oscar was at least competitive. Tito, as against Wright, was utterly dominated and probably didn't win a single round. More evidence that, against the truly great, Tito appears as a lower-tier, and entirely one-dimensional, fighter. Shane and Oscar don't.

I really would have loved to see Tito fight Mously, it is the only guy he didn't fight because he came up at the same time Tito moved to 154. I think Tito would KhimTFO.

Given that Mosley's NEVER BEEN KNOCKED OUT HIS ENTIRE CAREER, that seems like an odd pick. The safe bet is Mosley UD.

[The Rookie Fan]

As for your list. I would rate them like this:

Maywether
B-Hop
Tito
Mously
Oscar

I rate them:

Mayweather
B-Hop
*Winky Wright*
Mosley
Oscar
Tito

I can't credit Tito for the "win" over Oscar. No way he should have won on points. And once you take that W from him, I don't see how you possibly put him above any of these other guys. I think you have to put him in the place you wanted to put Oscar: never beat an elite fighter in his prime. Seriously, I think Tito is far and away the most one-dimensional guy on this list, and possibly a full step down from the rest of them.

I'm sorry but I disagree. Tito is criticized terribly for his fight with Wright but Wright had the perfect style for Tito and Tito was passed his prime and over his weight class.

Tito is naturally bigger than both Shane and Oscar--this "out of his weight class" thing is silly. He lost 12 straight rounds to Winky at 154--the same weight at which Mosley (in the first fight, at least; I think in both) beat Oscar far more convincingly than Tito did.

If any of these three gets an excuse for losses at 154, it's Shane. He's way smaller than those guys.

At 147 there was no one better than him. Fine take the out the win over Oscar, lets call it a draw, which is what I think it should have been, now tell me what has Oscar or Mously done to make them better than Tito??

Well, they're just far more multi-dimensional fighters. If you want specifics: (1) Mosley beat Oscar clearly in their first fight. Tito was not able to do that. (2) Oscar beat Tito. I don't see a draw there. And I see what could have been yet another total domination of Tito (a la Winky) if Oscar had just kept up what he had done the rest of the fight. There was no reason to worry at that point--Tito hadn't landed anything scary and wasn't going to. Oscar could easily have won that fight 118-110.

I remember them fighting eachother and thinking they looked like to amateurs throwing flurries at eachother and the deafens went out the window. If eather of them would've tried to box the other it would have been much easier fight. And if eather of them fought Tito in the same way they fought eachother they would've had their a**es handed to them inside of 8 rounds.

That's silly. Obviously they wouldn't have fought the same way against Tito that they did against each other. We don't even have to speculate--we have evidence (Oscar vs. Tito).

If you take every common opponent that they have, with the exception of Winky, Tito did far better than both Mously and DLH and Tito got them first when they were still young, hungry and undefeated.

Why except Winky? That fight was especially telling re Tito. But I disagree anyway.

Common opponents:

Shane/Tito - Oscar, Winky, Vargas. Let's forget about Vargas. Obviously Shane handled him easier, but Vargas was well beyond shot at that point. But as to the other two, Shane looked better against BOTH of them.

Oscar/Tito - B-Hop, Vargas. We can discount Vargas again since Tito had already broken him (some say) and he was tremendously juiced on steroids against Oscar. W/r/t B-hop, yes he finished Oscar earlier than he did Tito, but up until that point Oscar was at least competitive. Tito, as against Wright, was utterly dominated and probably didn't win a single round. More evidence that, against the truly great, Tito appears as a lower-tier, and entirely one-dimensional, fighter. Shane and Oscar don't.

I really would have loved to see Tito fight Mously, it is the only guy he didn't fight because he came up at the same time Tito moved to 154. I think Tito would KhimTFO.

Given that Mosley's NEVER BEEN KNOCKED OUT HIS ENTIRE CAREER, that seems like an odd pick. The safe bet is Mosley UD.

LOL tried to sort out the quotes like you but am not very good at it yet and didn't wanna mess up the post....

Anyway, first, Tito fought Winky at 160 not 154. And Tito might have been taller than Oscar and Mously but he was a skinny guy and most would agree that he was not suited for the middleweight division.

You are right that Mously did better against Oscar. For some reason I was not considering him. When I wrote that I ment common opponents other than eachother if you know what I mean

DLH said it himself that in the last 3 rounds against Tito he was exhausted and had nothing left in the tank. If he had tried to mount any type of offensive he would've most likely been knocked down at some point. If there is one good thing about Tito is that he could punch hard throughout the 12 rounds. It is not a fact that DLH beat Trinidad so stop saying it like if it was. It is just your opinion and your point of view. Not everybody agrees on this including all three judges who scored that fight, and it is their opinion that counts.

Shane did not handle Vargas easier. The first fight was even untill they stopped it because of the swelling. And that was the same shot Vargas.

With Oscar you are forgetting Oba Carr, Yory Boy Campas (56-0 with 50 KO at the time) and Whitaker. Whitaker was past his prime on both fights not just against Tito and Whitaker himself said that Tito was much better than DLH. And no one put a beating on Vargas like Tito did, sorry. This was prime vargas, the one who beat Quartey and has a W against Winky.(Notice how I said "has a W" and not "beat"). Maybe Oscar won more rounds against B-Hop but it only took one good shot from him and Oscar folded and decided he didn't want anymore.

Mously got seriously hurt by Forrest. Are you going to tell me that Forrest hits harder than Tito . Mously is also not a defensive minded fighter. He has alwais counted on his speed and power. Ha can get hit and get hit often. He has a good chin but he would not have taken Tito's punch for long. It would be similar to Tito against Read. Read's speed was giving Tito problems until he got caught. Then it was all over.

[luvfightgame]

how do you guys rate Mosley then since he beat Oscar twice but no one else. I know he beat Vargas but Vargas is starting to look like a measuring stick on who knocks him out fastest. None of the guys who are boxing now have really been the king of the whole thing like Sugar Ray Leonard was when Ray beat all of his generation- Ray was 5-1-1 against the guys who were Benitez,Hearns,Duran,Hagler. Bernard has been the most dominant knocking out Oscar and Tito yet he was too big for Oscar.. I am not sure any of them have really shown alot of domination except for Bernard who I think is not in the group because of size. Although they all look good against Vargas. Vargas seems to be the highlight clip for the three of them Tito, Mosley and Oscar. I hope Mayweather comes along and beats Mosley. I know he would fight Tito yet Tito in my mind is pretty big. But if he beat Tito, Mosley and Oscar, and then maybe Winky, he would be the main guy like Ray was and go down very well. Since no one else has really dominated. Mosley lost to Forrest twice. Oscar lost 5 top fights, Tito lost to Bernard and Winky. No one is dominating.. What is missing now is knockouts which would sort of be a claim of domination.. That is where Bernard comes out ahead. And since they all knocked out Vargas you have to think that maybe Vargas is not a guy people should be impressed with if they beat him. Vargas seems to be a guy who guys beat if they qualify for being in the top money bracket but nothing else. So who do you guys think is the leader of the current generation of Mayweather,Mosley,Tito,Oscar,Winky,Bernard?

I really disagree with the Vargas comments. The guy has lost to only the 3 top fighters in his era. It puts him in the same category as Hearns. He lost to Hagler, and SRL but he's still a damn good fighter. Vargas beat Winky, but lost to ODH,Tito,Mosley. How does that make him a bad fighter? He fought the best in his time frame and so what he lost some. I can't stand it when a fighter becomes crap when they lose. The guy was a very very solid fighter. And his losses to the best guys in his division don't change that at all.

[Bookkeeper]

As everyone's opinion here is on point & valid...basically because it's their opinion...I gotta chuck mine in.

He went above & beyond the call of duty against Quartey, Vargas, & Tito & beat all of them in their primes & when they were on the cusp of greatness.

Honestly...I usually agree with Max...but not here.

Max has a cornucopia of knowledge that is genrally spot on & overflowing...but he's wrong here.

You promised we would have a six pack of natural ice together, I guess it will never happen though.

1. It's no way in hell Vargas was in his prime when he fought Oscar, and he was no where near greatness. Tito had beat him half to death, and his next two fights his corner had to sit down with him and ask was he committed to a comeback because of his performances.
2. The Trinidad fight was controversial but nevertheless it was a Tito victory. On top of that Oscar has faded in fights late with Mosley, Hopkins, Mayweather, Sturm. We already know he was faded in the Tito fight, how do you think it would have ended up with him being in there with the best finisher in the business (at the time), I think he lost fair and square because of his choice.
3. Quartey was a close fight that the Majority of the fans thought Ike won (sportswriters) but nevertheless it was close. It just puzzles me to this day that Oscar gets credit for the fights he was robbed in (supposedly) and in fights where he robbed his opponent (Whitaker, Quartey, Sturm). How the hell does that work.

[The Rookie Fan]

how do you guys rate Mosley then since he beat Oscar twice but no one else. I know he beat Vargas but Vargas is starting to look like a measuring stick on who knocks him out fastest. None of the guys who are boxing now have really been the king of the whole thing like Sugar Ray Leonard was when Ray beat all of his generation- Ray was 5-1-1 against the guys who were Benitez,Hearns,Duran,Hagler. Bernard has been the most dominant knocking out Oscar and Tito yet he was too big for Oscar.. I am not sure any of them have really shown alot of domination except for Bernard who I think is not in the group because of size. Although they all look good against Vargas. Vargas seems to be the highlight clip for the three of them Tito, Mosley and Oscar. I hope Mayweather comes along and beats Mosley. I know he would fight Tito yet Tito in my mind is pretty big. But if he beat Tito, Mosley and Oscar, and then maybe Winky, he would be the main guy like Ray was and go down very well. Since no one else has really dominated. Mosley lost to Forrest twice. Oscar lost 5 top fights, Tito lost to Bernard and Winky. No one is dominating.. What is missing now is knockouts which would sort of be a claim of domination.. That is where Bernard comes out ahead. And since they all knocked out Vargas you have to think that maybe Vargas is not a guy people should be impressed with if they beat him. Vargas seems to be a guy who guys beat if they qualify for being in the top money bracket but nothing else. So who do you guys think is the leader of the current generation of Mayweather,Mosley,Tito,Oscar,Winky,Bernard?

I really disagree with the Vargas comments. The guy has lost to only the 3 top fighters in his era. It puts him in the same category as Hearns. He lost to Hagler, and SRL but he's still a damn good fighter. Vargas beat Winky, but lost to ODH,Tito,Mosley. How does that make him a bad fighter? He fought the best in his time frame and so what he lost some. I can't stand it when a fighter becomes crap when they lose. The guy was a very very solid fighter. And his losses to the best guys in his division don't change that at all.

Yes, I agree. Vargas is one tough fighter.

He was giving Moulsy hell in their first fight. If it was not fot that swollen eye who knows what would have happend. He was just too "macho" for his own good. He took on Marquez, Campas, Winky, Quartey, Tito, Oscar and Mously pretty much back to back, with only 2 (that I can remember) fights with lesser opponents in between. One of these lesser opponents was Wilfredo Rivera who, even though is not top quality, is also a real tough guy who gave Mously some trouble and dropped Vargas with a perfect right before Vargas came back and KOed him. His career was way to fast tracked, which I don't understand for such a young fighter. I have great respect for Vargas and IMHO he puts alot of these undefeated overprotected fighters to shame. No I am not talking about Floyd before anyone starts yelling "Floyd Hater"...

[shza]

Yes, I agree. Vargas is one tough fighter.

He was giving Moulsy hell in their first fight. If it was not fot that swollen eye who knows what would have happend.

I thought he looked awful in that fight and didn't win more than a round.... Yes, he was going forward, but he wasn't throwing punches. It was strange to watch. It was almost like walking someone down, except instead of ever throwing anything, he was repeatedly getting hit in the face. I don't know how that's giving someone hell.