pernell whitaker vs leonard

[SweetPea]

Sometimes he did. Regardless he relied alot too much on his reflexes to fight a guy faster than him the way he did. Especially if he tried to fight Leonard in close, and from the outside Leonard is so much taller and so good with his feet.

I don't necessarily agree that Leonard was faster than Whitaker. I think their speed is about the same. Leonard was just flashier, but that doesn't mean he was faster.

Like I said before though, I would favor Leonard over Pernell at 147, because Leonard was the naturally bigger man.

I don't know why you think Whitaker is so fast. He's not. He had a better than average speed, but he didn't have the elite speed p4p like Mayweather, Jones Jr., Mosley, Leonard, Ali, etc. He was quick with great reflexes, but his hand speed wasn't up there with them.

Well I don't know what to tell you. I've watched virtually every fight of Pernell's career and almost all of the fights of those other names you mentioned, and I think his hand speed PFP is right up there.
How do you think he was able to throw 70-100 punches a round during his prime (about twice as many as Floyd or Roy) and still be unhittable? It wasn't by being slow.

[Taeth]

I didn't say slow. He's quick for sure, but not quite at that top level, and it makes a difference. Also about him getting not getting hit is a mixture of who he fought, and his amazing reflexes. Sometimes great reflexes are accompanied by the same level of speed. Jermain Taylor has pretty fast hands, but not great reflexes. Lennox Lewis had fast hands in his prime, but not great reflexes. There are other guys who have faster reflexes and Whitaker was one of them.

[SweetPea]

I didn't say slow. He's quick for sure, but not quite at that top level, and it makes a difference. Also about him getting not getting hit is a mixture of who he fought, and his amazing reflexes. Sometimes great reflexes are accompanied by the same level of speed. Jermain Taylor has pretty fast hands, but not great reflexes. Lennox Lewis had fast hands in his prime, but not great reflexes. There are other guys who have faster reflexes and Whitaker was one of them.

What exactly do you mean by that part in bold?
Because his level of competition was certainly superior to Roy's and Floyd's.

[Scrap]

Both are among my favourite fighters, I think in the light of what Ive seen Leonard stops sweet pea in or around the 9th

[Taeth]

I didn't say slow. He's quick for sure, but not quite at that top level, and it makes a difference. Also about him getting not getting hit is a mixture of who he fought, and his amazing reflexes. Sometimes great reflexes are accompanied by the same level of speed. Jermain Taylor has pretty fast hands, but not great reflexes. Lennox Lewis had fast hands in his prime, but not great reflexes. There are other guys who have faster reflexes and Whitaker was one of them.

What exactly do you mean by that part in bold?
Because his level of competition was certainly superior to Roy's and Floyd's.

I disagree, especially in comparison to Roy. You were telling me how good his opponents were, but Nelson was moving up and past his prime when he fought Whitaker, and he was slow which is easy for a fast guy to beat. Whitaker had a lot of solid names, but none of the guys were very fast and Oscar was very green in their fight. They would have had no chance against Floyd or Roy p4p.

[headson]

it pains me to say but at 147 srl would win
lower whitataker wins

[SweetPea]

I didn't say slow. He's quick for sure, but not quite at that top level, and it makes a difference. Also about him getting not getting hit is a mixture of who he fought, and his amazing reflexes. Sometimes great reflexes are accompanied by the same level of speed. Jermain Taylor has pretty fast hands, but not great reflexes. Lennox Lewis had fast hands in his prime, but not great reflexes. There are other guys who have faster reflexes and Whitaker was one of them.

What exactly do you mean by that part in bold?
Because his level of competition was certainly superior to Roy's and Floyd's.

I disagree, especially in comparison to Roy. You were telling me how good his opponents were, but Nelson was moving up and past his prime when he fought Whitaker, and he was slow which is easy for a fast guy to beat. Whitaker had a lot of solid names, but none of the guys were very fast and Oscar was very green in their fight. They would have had no chance against Floyd or Roy p4p.

1. Oscar was young, but I'm not sure I'd call him "green." He was already a 3 division world champ by the time he fought Whitaker.
2. Whitaker was way past his prime when he fought Oscar. Prime Whitaker... the Whitaker who fought McGirt and Chavez... would have taken Oscar to school.
3. Do you consider Floyd and Roy to both be superior PFP to Pernell? You seem to be insinuating that.

[ICB]

Lets compare Jones record to Whitaker this will be interesting both are greats.


Roy Jones

Bernard Hopkins
James Toney
Virgil Hill
Montel Griffin
Thulani Malinga
Thomas Tate
Clinton Woods
Antonio Tarver
Vinny Pazienza
Mike McCallum 40 at the time
Reggie Johnson
Julio Cesar Gonzalez



Pernell Whitaker

Roger Mayweather
Jose Luis Ramirez
Greg Haugen
Azumah Nelson
James McGirt
Julio Cesar Chavez That was Whitakers win
Julio Cesar Vasquez
Wilfredo Rivera



I think overall Jones beat the better opposition Sweetpea but of course its very debatable.

[SweetPea]

Lets compare Jones record to Whitaker this will be interesting both are greats.


Roy Jones

Bernard Hopkins
James Toney
Virgil Hill
Montel Griffin
Thulani Malinga
Thomas Tate
Clinton Woods
Antonio Tarver
Vinny Pazienza
Mike McCallum 40 at the time
Reggie Johnson
Julio Cesar Gonzalez



Pernell Whitaker

Roger Mayweather
Jose Luis Ramirez
Greg Haugen
Azumah Nelson
James McGirt
Julio Cesar Chavez That was Whitakers win
Julio Cesar Vasquez
Wilfredo Rivera



I think overall Jones beat the better opposition Sweetpea but of course its very debatable.

I think there could be two separate arguments. If we just did "who fought the better opposition, then I think Whitaker clearly has the better resume, as you'd be adding the names De La Hoya and Trinidad to the ones you already listed above.

As for who beat the better opposition... it's closer. That list above doesn't include DLH, but there are a large amount of people who feel Whitaker did win. You rightfully listed Chavez as a win, because everyone agrees he won that bout.
Names like Rafael Pineda and Jorge Paez should be added, since they had careers that were as good or better than some of the names listed under Jones.

[ICB]

Lets compare Jones record to Whitaker this will be interesting both are greats.


Roy Jones

Bernard Hopkins
James Toney
Virgil Hill
Montel Griffin
Thulani Malinga
Thomas Tate
Clinton Woods
Antonio Tarver
Vinny Pazienza
Mike McCallum 40 at the time
Reggie Johnson
Julio Cesar Gonzalez



Pernell Whitaker

Roger Mayweather
Jose Luis Ramirez
Greg Haugen
Azumah Nelson
James McGirt
Julio Cesar Chavez That was Whitakers win
Julio Cesar Vasquez
Wilfredo Rivera



I think overall Jones beat the better opposition Sweetpea but of course its very debatable.

I think there could be two separate arguments. If we just did "who fought the better opposition, then I think Whitaker clearly has the better resume, as you'd be adding the names De La Hoya and Trinidad to the ones you already listed above.

As for who beat the better opposition... it's closer. That list above doesn't include DLH, but there are a large amount of people who feel Whitaker did win. You rightfully listed Chavez as a win, because everyone agrees he won that bout.
Names like Rafael Pineda and Jorge Paez should be added, since they had careers that were as good or better than some of the names listed under Jones.

Yes i was just going on wins i included the robberies Ramirez and Chavez because i think everyone agrees Whitaker won those comfortably Whitaker vs Oscar was razor thin close and could of gone either way and certainly Oscar did not win by the scores that the scorecards said i don't know about these guys you listed Pineda and Paez haven't heard of them must read up on them but like you said its very close on who they beat.

[Taeth]

THey were solid fighters, but wouldn't have beaten anybody who was the real deal. I would them on the same level as Augustus.

[sweet_scientist]

DLH green against Whitaker? What rubbish.

DLH was actually at his absolute best at 140, BEFORE he got to Whitaker.

As to the issue of Whitaker not being able to handle quicker fighters, well Whitaker was already on the slide when he faced DLH who WAS quicker than him. Did it matter? No. Tell you why? Because Pernell didn't just rely on reflexes to avoid punches, he relied on ANTICIPATION.

And for what its worth I thought an old past his prime DLH did a better job getting to Mayweather than a prime DLH did getting to an old past prime Whitaker.

[sweet_scientist]

THey were solid fighters, but wouldn't have beaten anybody who was the real deal. I would them on the same level as Augustus.

A 40 year old Rafael Pineda arguably beat Cory Spinks and Zab Judah. Whitaker shut a prime Pineda out.

[zhubin]

Pernell was a brilliant boxer. All i have to say is this...compare the biggest common opponent him and Floyd fought (using Floyd as an example since many on this board have him as the p4p champ)...Delahoya. When Oscar fought Pernell, Oscar was at his prime and Pernell certainly wasn't anywhere close to his prime...yet Whitaker almost won (and yes..i i'm in the group that thinks Pernell did lose a very close fight). Floyd is at his absolute prime right now and he recently fought an Oscar who was clearly not in his prime...yet Floyd won by a close decision. It's just too bad Whitaker wasted the latter part of his careers dealing with his drug demons. But the man is a legend.

[ICB]

THey were solid fighters, but wouldn't have beaten anybody who was the real deal. I would them on the same level as Augustus.

A 40 year old Rafael Pineda arguably beat Cory Spinks and Zab Judah. Whitaker shut a prime Pineda out.

Wow didn't know that he was 38 when he fought Judah and lost sd and by compubox he maybe should of got the nod agaisnt Spinks thanks for info didn't know that.