Jermain Taylor...do you believe...or don't you?

[Punisher136]

Looks like im the only sorry bastard who voted yes  . Ok so he hasn't been that great lately and has probably received more than his fair share of "close" decisions, He's still undefeated. An important thing i picked up while watching byrd and williamson (besides better angry management techniques) is that one of the commentators said that in close rounds, they'll give the beneift of the doubt to the champion (that might not be exactly what they said but i took something away from that fight none the less). Essentially if you are the challenger, you have to bring it on fight night. You have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you are more deserving of the belt than the man who stands before you. Putting on a fight that could go either way, while entertaining, does not solidify you as the better man. If you want to be the champion, you have to win in impressive fashion.

[BoxingGorilla]

I think Emanuel Steward was right in yelling at him.

Despite all the criticism he's been getting for yelling at Taylor.

He's the only one with sense close to Taylor.

I agree. It's not like he was yelling at Taylor because he wanted to belittle him in public. Steward was yelling because he wanted the best result possible for Taylor's sake.

That's how I see it.

[BoxingGorilla]

I hope he dissapears like a fart in the wind.

Pretty damn funny, Akron.

[Mar]

I feel the same frustration as most here but i still remember the old taylor that got him the belt....awesome punching power, crazy jab, good size etc.....i still belive that same taylor is around and can show up..i think he is trying way to hard to be something he's not and trying to hard to impress his critics with dramatic ko's...the old taylor can give any of the middleweights a tough night.

[CutMeMick]

I wanna belive but then I watch him fight and he kicks me right off the believe express.

[amat]

No way he isn't the champion. Sorry but there is no way anyone else is the champion but him. I may like Pavlik more, and Taylor may have benefited from close decisions but come on. Look at his record, 2 wins and a draw over two of the top P4P guys in the sport.

No one is saying that Calzaghe is not the real 168 champ, and Taylor's bettered his competition already in a fraction of the time.

[ICB]

I voted this option No. I no longer believe in Taylor as our Middleweight champion.


Taylor has been getting worse since Hopkins fights in many peoples eyes he should be 0-4 imo getting back to back gift decisions is not a real champion Pavlik is very hungry and very strong and imo he will put an end to Taylor's boring reign then finally we can get some excitement back into Middleweight divison which hasn't been there for long time Taylors jab seems to have vanished and he is just too damn lazy to work i don't know whats matter with him but Pavlik will destroy him and people are saying he hasn't had right opponent to make him look good im wondering what type of opponent actually makes him look good ??

[Wacko3205]

Honestly…I like this thread…good stuff from everybody… s to all…so let’s get crackin!

It's hard to say, Taylor has been fighting top guys but the problem is 3 of his last 5 fights have been against smaller men & two of those Wright & Spinks arguably won.

Good stuff...but I disagree...kind of.

Taylor's fought three top guys in his weight class...Winky, Joppy, & Hopkins. Argueably...he's defeat Wright...which I argue that he didn't & he defeated Hopkins twice...which I argue that he didn't.

I can't qualify Joppy, Ouma, or Spinks because the last two were out of their classes & Joppy was done before he climbed the steps to his stool.

I still give him credit for his competition & he is still recognised as middleweight champion as he is still technically undefeated.

Here's where I disagree. The competition was good...but I think that there was another hand in the mix to get him through the night.

He could easily be 2-3 in his last five & I don't think it will be long before he is dethroned!

I agree here...it will be long before he is dethroned!

I think the talent is there for taylor. I mean the fact that he has atleast lasted the distance with Bhop and Winky means he's no dud.

It's impressive that he lasted...but again...it's how he got through them that bothers me so much. I wasn't convinced that he won the first Hopkins match nor the draw with Wright.

Maybe he needs a couple of tune ups to get his form back. I'll believe he's done if he has a bad showing against an easy opponent.

He had his tune ups against Spinks & Ouma.

I think hes ripe for the picking. He will lose his next fight if its against a middleweight. I really never liked the guy to be honest. I thought Winky won that fight, I thought Bernard won the first fight. He could easily have 3 losses after this last fight. If he wins another close decision I am gonna refuse to watch him again..I'm only watching now to see him lose.Tired of hearing him talk about money, step up and fight the real middleweights who deserve shots!!! He kind of has a arrogance like he dominated those fights..he squeeked by.

I agree with pretty much everything here 'cept for the arrogance part & the like factor...I have always liked Taylor...but not of late.

i'm find with taylor. he gave winky a run for his money.

But the question is...do you think that he beat Winky?

I don't & I don't think that it's right that Winky was wronged with a draw.

This all goes back to my issues of the fact that you will have to KO Taylor to win a match.

I will not be sure he is fin until he is clearly beaten, which in my eyes has not happened. Unless I count the fight where he actually became middleweight champion. I am not, thank you.

Huh?

So you think he lost to Hopkins in the first match...but not to Wright?

I think taylor won his last match but think he could have 2 blemishes on his record first b hop fight and the winky fight. I still think he's a good fighter but just doesn't have the will anymore or something, I mean he used to talk about fighting the best, now he talks about fighting the ones that will make him the most money. Also a few months back or so there was talk of him wanting to retire, I personally think he's a talented boxer whom perhaps isn't all that fond of boxing anymore, hence I see him loosing soon, then again though the judges may think otherwise.

Good post...well said...totally agree.

Where is the vote for, I never thought Taylor was Champ in the first place. With out out of the way, I do think he is good. He will get better and be the current champ for a while I believe.

Disagree. With his declining work rate I see someone handing him his ass sooner than later.

I voted that HBO's made a bit more of Taylor than there is. He clearly, in my mind, lost to Winky and at best, for Taylor, the 1st Hopkins fight was a draw.

Agreed.

That being said, he's certainly a talented fighter but I think he's been fighting like he's afraid to lose rather than fighting to win. Spinks may have beaten him, he may not have, I was so goddamn bored 3 rounds in to that fight that I stopped paying much attention. Taylor does have some skills, I don't think that he's exceptional in any area, except perhaps his jab (if he ever bothers to use it again), but he doesn't really have any deficiencies either.

Agreed again.

I curious to see how he'll respond to the style of Pavlik if they ever fight, but JT beating Pavlik is by no means out of the question, in my mind he'd be favored to win (though I'll be cheering for Pavlik).

Yep. Me too. I think that Pavlik has a shot at giving Taylor the fight of his career. Pav’s damned determined to make a showing of himself & to become that which he has always boasted that he would be…the middleweight champion of the world.

We shall see.

I agree with the poster(s) above who said Taylor seems to have lost his desire for boxing.

Oddly enough…I agree here again…especially considering the fact that he was ready to retire a few months back.

\Bottom line-he has hung in with 2 of the best(regardless of who people think won). If he could follow that up with a decisive win, it would go far for his career. not just fighting little guys.

Agreed...but I honestly believe that he's running scared. I was blinded by the fact that Taylor was going places back when he was comin up...but once he started fighting legit middles...he started showing wear...you know what I mean?

We boxing fans are fickle. I have never been a JT fan but I repseted him for fighting Bhop and Winky back to back and he hung with them but since thenhe has looked woeful to say the least. May be it was styles(doubtful),may be a lack of motivation or may be you are right Wack,dodgy decisions,LOTS of marketing etc.

I think we'll find out for sure if he steps in the ring with Pavlik. Pavlik is bigger,stronger and hits harder than nearly all of JT's opponents so he would test him,make him dig deep. I need to see that fight or a similarly tough fight for JT before forming a final opinion.

Again...agreed all the way around.

Hes got to relearn the agression he showed early in his career,hes got plenty of power and speed,but now he's content to just sit out and try to win on points

Absolutely...why fight to the death when you can back peddle & have un-nanimous decisions handed to ya?

I think Emanuel Steward was right in yelling at him.

Despite all the criticism he's been getting for yelling at Taylor.

He's the only one with sense close to Taylor. Now he's probably going to be gone for it.

Two words that would help Taylor once again: PAT BURNS.

Soon as Pavlik or whoever he faces beats Taylor I hope he dissapears like a fart in the wind

Personally...I'd like to see him lose...just to see if he could come back. Maybe that's what it'd take to bring him back. It did Hopkins some good.

You have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you are more deserving of the belt than the man who stands before you. Putting on a fight that could go either way, while entertaining, does not solidify you as the better man. If you want to be the champion, you have to win in impressive fashion.

Agreed...the thing is...Taylor seems as unconvinced with his wins as most fans do.

I feel the same frustration as most here but i still remember the old taylor that got him the belt....awesome punching power, crazy jab, good size etc.....i still belive that same taylor is around and can show up..i think he is trying way to hard to be something he's not and trying to hard to impress his critics with dramatic ko's...the old taylor can give any of the middleweights a tough night.

The old Taylor was fighting blown up welters & light middles while knocking them out was impressive...he didn't carry over to legit middles. He couldn't even really fuddle the worn out middles that he matched with.

That's my main issue with him.

I wanna belive but then I watch him fight and he kicks me right off the believe express.

Agreed.

No way he isn't the champion. Sorry but there is no way anyone else is the champion but him. I may like Pavlik more, and Taylor may have benefited from close decisions but come on. Look at his record, 2 wins and a draw over two of the top P4P guys in the sport.

Disagree here. I don't want to back someone that...as you say has benefited from close decisions.

I don't believe that he beat Hopkins the first go around...the second...yes...nor do I belive that he earned a draw against Wright & I truly do not think that he beat Spinks.

No one is saying that Calzaghe is not the real 168 champ, and Taylor's bettered his competition already in a fraction of the time.

Again...disagree...you take away the Hopkins & Wright matches & get a bit deeper by researching Calzaghe's opponents instead of doing what everyone else does & calling everyone that he beat either obscure Euro trash or overratted unproven talent then you have Taylor fighting a lot of blown up fighters & Calzaghe taking on everyone in the 168lb division of merit...whether you like the fighters or not...Joe has faced & hammered them out.

Also...amat...when I say YOU in the above statement I don't just mean YOU...I mean YOU as in you boxing fans...me to included in the YOU.

I voted this option No. I no longer believe in Taylor as our Middleweight champion.

Me too.

Taylor has been getting worse since Hopkins fights in many peoples eyes he should be 0-4 imo getting back to back gift decisions is not a real champion Pavlik is very hungry and very strong and imo he will put an end to Taylor's boring reign then finally we can get some excitement back into Middleweight divison which hasn't been there for long time Taylors jab seems to have vanished and he is just too damn lazy to work i don't know whats matter with him but Pavlik will destroy him and people are saying he hasn't had right opponent to make him look good im wondering what type of opponent actually makes him look good ??

Very true & well said.

So honestly people...as mixed as our opinions are...I do like the banter.

Good thoughts from all.

s for the work.

Cheers.

Very true & well said.

So honestly people...as mixed as our opinions are...I do like the banter.

Good thoughts from all.

s for the work.

Cheers.

[gyrokai]

I think Emanuel Steward was right in yelling at him.

Despite all the criticism he's been getting for yelling at Taylor.

He's the only one with sense close to Taylor.

I agree. It's not like he was yelling at Taylor because he wanted to belittle him in public. Steward was yelling because he wanted the best result possible for Taylor's sake.

That's how I see it.

Yeah, cc... I think just about all of us, at one time, wanted the best result for Taylor.

[ICB]

back Wacko quality thread good points from all.

[BoxingGorilla]

Quote from: BoxingGorilla on Yesterday at 11:31:27 PM
I will not be sure he is fin until he is clearly beaten, which in my eyes has not happened. Unless I count the fight where he actually became middleweight champion. I am not, thank you.

Wacko
Huh?

So you think he lost to Hopkins in the first match...but not to Wright?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Right. I think Wright had him by the balls but let him go with that 12th round game of keepaway.

[amat]

Wacko you always do this to me, make me defend a point I don't like defending. I think it got to the point where I agreed with you to much I started going the other way, I don't know.

But Wacko you know as well as anyone that I LOATHED the Wright - Taylor decision and I literally went off that night. I was by no means happy that my favorite fighter wasn't champion. BUT, it was a close fight. As much as I believe Wright won that bout, it was a close fight. There is an argument to be made that Wright won every single one of his close bouts.

With Hopkins the first time there is an argument as a couple of the very early rounds were close and Bernard didn't get going again for 5 rounds. The second fight I feel Jermain won. Then in his third bout, ughh, it was close enough. I by no means feel he won, but he got the draw. And that is reasonable, because a lot of people think Taylor won.

Then he takes 2 fights easy after 3 of the toughest fight any champion had. 2 fights. That's not bad. This time last year he was about to take on the number two pound for pound fighter in all of the land. And it wasn't exactly Whitaker - Chavez. It was a close fight that had a lot of people split. He happened to get the decision, that's reasonable.

He has 3 close decisions against two of the very best in the world. I can't bring it up in me to hold that against him. I can't. On the other hand, he very well could have lost 2 of those fights.

I can't not call him the middleweight champion of the world for 2 reasons.

First being that the only other guy who can lay a single claim to that title possibly being his is fighting at 170 lbs next time out. Let's not get carried away on Pavlik as far as his champion status goes. He knocked out a contender, making him the primary contender. No way is he the champion.

Secondly, he hasn't lost. We may have thought he did, we may have thought him to look lackluster but he hasn't lost. And he hasn't been involved in any blatant robberies. He's gotten the ball to bounce his way in close fights. But he hasn't lost so therefore, he is still champion.

[amat]

And the mandatory CC is in order here.

[Wacko3205]

Wacko you always do this to me, make me defend a point I don't like defending. I think it got to the point where I agreed with you to much I started going the other way, I don't know.

Heh heh heh. in another 24.

First being that the only other guy who can lay a single claim to that title possibly being his is fighting at 170 lbs next time out. Let's not get carried away on Pavlik as far as his champion status goes. He knocked out a contender, making him the primary contender. No way is he the champion.

Secondly, he hasn't lost. We may have thought he did, we may have thought him to look lackluster but he hasn't lost. And he hasn't been involved in any blatant robberies. He's gotten the ball to bounce his way in close fights. But he hasn't lost so therefore, he is still champion.

Good points.

I'm not saying he's not the champ...I aint in denial...but I just don't feel that he has earned it.

Hopkins earned his rights & he defended them without question. While most everyone hated the man while he reigned...there wasn't a legitamately questionable decision out there.

Ugly or not...Hopkins won.

[Punisher136]

If taylor brings it 100% he is without a doubt the best in the middleweight division. I'm not training the guy so i dunno what you want me to do about him not bringing his best every night.