P4P MMA

[VictorCharlie]

You see these all the time in boxing and after watching both Penn and Shamrock win this weekend I was wondering who yall think are p4p the best....since MMA is so young this is not a current list but an ATG list

1. Fedor
2. BJ Penn
3. Frank Shamrock
4. Matt Hughes
5. Big Nogs
6. Wanderlei
7. Chuck
8. Shogun
9. Gomi
10. Sakuraba
hon mention: Yamamato, Royce, Coleman, Bas, Couture, Ken Shamrock, Mirko, Barnett
guys who might make it in : GSP, Gonzaga, Franklin, Sokoudju, Rampage
this isn't in any specific order either


any thoughts

Having Penn at #2 is a joke. Having Shamrock in the top 10 is somewhat of a joke as well.

read the post against...they weren't in a specific order...and Frank Shamrock is one of the most all around talented fighters in MMA...unfortunately he doesn't feel the need to fight the best if very much at all...I'd put money on him to beat damn near anyone at 185.

[Nate17]

I think Frank Shamrock is a better fighter than Ken Shamrock. Until he fights better competition I won't consider him a top 185 fighter though. He's got a good record with a few notable wins but he's been fighting weak competition ever since his 'comeback'.

I don't think he ever will, but if he would step up and fight some quality fighters maybe he'd get more recognition than having the "Shamrock" name. A fight with Rich Franklin would be cool, since Franklin beat down Ken Shamrock. That probably won't happen though, and I think Franklin would handle him the same way he did his older brother.

UNTIL THEN, he'll be IMO what most people see him as, EliteXC's poster boy who fights the easy fight.

Edit: I'll play the devils advocate and say maybe he isn't fighting anyone worthwhile because EliteXC doesn't have any competition for him. But thats HIS fault for signing up with a lame duck league. He's the reason people watch EliteXC, but EliteXC very well could be the reason people stop watching Frank Shamrock.

[VictorCharlie]

I agree that he isn't doing his legacy any favors with infrequent fights and less than stellar opposition, but the guy is undefeated in the UFC, and beat the best they had at the time pretty handily as well as a win over Bas. I know Bas came back to win the next two, but one was a SD and one was due to cuts I think, so considering Bas is a LHW to HW and Frank is a MW and that he was an equal to Ruten I think the guy deserves a spot somewhere the latter part of a top 10. Buts thats just me. Baroni isn't a top tier fighter but he is a tough guy who can bang and Frank beat him pretty soundly I thought both standing and on the ground.

[Nate17]

Yeah I completely respect what he's done for the sport, and he has a very stellar record. He had a good run in UFC and even beat Tito Ortiz in an almost 5 round war(thats the infamous fight that made Tito start training at Big Bear).

While he's a great fighter in his time, I'd like to see him fight other P4P fighters to consider him one. I wouldn't put him on a list, but wouldn't argue if one were to do so.(maybe I'd make annoying posts why I wouldn't )

[SalTheButcher]

also aoki will be an all time great, and rutten should be in the top 10, and if yoshida would have started younger and fought silva and cro-cop a little less he would have easily been one of the top ranked fighters in the world at some point, yoshida is the fucking man, AND FUCKING ZUFFA IS LETTING HIM WAISTE AWAY, I WILL NEVER FORGET THAT THEY DID THIS...


i will help some heads out tonight tho

[VictorCharlie]

Sal I think you are kinda of taking this pride buyout a little personal

[SalTheButcher]

Sal I think you are kinda of taking this pride buyout a little personal

indeed i am


and i was miscalculating there BTW


what i meant was i will help some heads out this saturday

[VictorCharlie]

Bas I agree. It just depends on how much you count old school pancrase....B/C his post Pancrase mma record is basically just winning a decision over Randleman....But he he dominated Pancrase and beat some top guys. The thing is if your are going to put Bas in mainly due to his wins in Pancrase then you have to do the same for Ken Shamrock who beat Bas twice. I disagree on Yoshida...I like watching the guy fight b/c his judo is sick and he is one tough SOB but you take away the win over Hunt, Frye and Royce and you aren't left with much. He got destroyed by Mirko, Silva and Thompson. Aoki is on the cusp....he needs a win over Gomi or rematch with Sakurai to really propel him to the next level. I don't think he'd match up well with some of UFC's WW, but he'd be in contention in the LW's.

[RP33]

Bas was great..
and Royce Gracie has to make a list.. i mean granted he hasn't done great lately with the Matt Hughes loss, but c'mon P4P is Royce Gracie.. He was fighting when there were no weight classes, which is the idea of Pound for Pound.. he was beating up on the biggest guys without gloves or set time limits.

[VictorCharlie]

Bas was great..
and Royce Gracie has to make a list.. i mean granted he hasn't done great lately with the Matt Hughes loss, but c'mon P4P is Royce Gracie.. He was fighting when there were no weight classes, which is the idea of Pound for Pound.. he was beating up on the biggest guys without gloves or set time limits.

Here is my issue with Royce....With current rules I don't think Royce wins all of those fights....So its hard to decide where he belongs....Very impressive wins over much bigger fighters and a legend for changing the the face of MMA, but with current rules and cross training he hasn't done much. I mean Rorion didn't need to create the UFC he could have had Rickson or Royce fight in pancrase, but chose not to. If you think about: no time limits, no standup rule and ability to wear GI were rules that clearly favored Royce and his BJJ.

[Nate17]

Yes, Royce dominated back when it was a style versus a style, when his ground game would put away all the fighters who knew nothing about the ground.

He did beat Shamrock but that was a gi choke which wouldn't be allowed now either. He pioneered UFC and is a legend, but he would not win against the current elite fighters(even in his prime) and shouldn't be a top P4P fighter for that reason.

[headson]

how about pedro rizzo when he came to fight that mutha fugga beat some azz

imo the only person who beat a game rizzo is couture

[VictorCharlie]

yeah Rizzo is a good one...but man he declined fast...Ricco Rodriguez was another guy that was pretty damn good but had a rapid decline...He beat Big Nog in pride but got a bad decision.

[headson]

whatcha mean declined fast the man was probaly the only heavyweight how actually threw leg kicks

ricco even hough i dont like him he is a beast

[VictorCharlie]

I think he won a fight not to long ago, but the KO's to Khartinov and Zentsov were brutal and not remiscent of the same Rizzo that beat Arlovski, barnett, coleman, severn etc..But after thinking back about some of his wins I just listed I agree if not in the top 10 then just outside