Mosley Highlight Vid..Where does everyone rank him All time?

[BoomBoom]

I think if he did a few things differently he could have been a top 25 of all time fighter and a top 5 lightweight, maybe even top 3. He was 38-0 before he suffered his first loss to Vernon Forrest. Up to that point you could easily argue that he had already accomplished as much as or maybe more than PBF. He fought some very quality guys and I think he became a little underrated afer his losses to Forrest and Wright. But he was past his best weight by then and still fighting the best and beating them. He could have retired 38-0 and still been a HOFer. ODLH, Molina, Holiday, Leija, Rivera, Taylor all guys he had beaten in his undefeated raign.

[RozzySean]

I think it's too difficult to rank him. I'm not particularly good at making ATG lists aside from maybe a top 5 or 10 but I don't see him being a top 20 if I managed to make one.

Why you may ask? Simply put,talent wise,he was SENSATIONAL at the lower weights but at 147 and 154,he has wins over Oscar(1 debateable),Collazo,a shot to heck Vargas and 2 losses to Vernon and 2 losses to Winky. That is not an ATG record. Also at 147/154,I don't think he displays the same power,technique nor speed he did at the lower weights. He slaps alot more with his punches.

Obviously he still has time to increase his legacy and wins over Cotto and Mayweather would make him an ATG but until then,imo, I don't think he's top 20. I can think of RJJ,Pernell,Mayweather,Ricardo Lopez,Tito and maybe a few others from this generation who have more claim to being ATG's than Shane. Again,just my opinion and it can change if someone puts a valid argument forward.

I think he has a better claim than Tito. Tito was a great welter and good at 154, but he didn't really have it as a middleweight, and even in victory, Tito showed his limitations against Oscar. Tito got dismantled by Winky and Hopkins. Let's not take anything away from Forrest. When healthy and in his prime, he was a tremendous fighter. If you want to knock Shane's record, look at Tito's...Sweetpea was shot when Tito beat him, Camacho was past his best, though I think he would have beaten Camacho at any point. You can say Vargas was shot when he fought Shane, but they guy is 6 years and 20 fights younger. Shane is still doing it at a near-peak level at 35 years old. That's gotta count for something. Oh, and with 37 KO's out of 147, I think he's doing a little more than slapping.


In terms of record, they are pretty similar. You can argue that Shane's record isn't better, but I think it's impossible to argue that it's worse. The thing that puts Shane ahead is his success in so many different weight classes. I agree, Shane wasn't dominant at weights other than 135, but he was damn good and near the top. At 135, he was at least as dominant (if not more so) than Tito was at 147, and on top of that, he beat very good fighters all the way up to 154. The only guy Tito beat at 154 was Vargas and he didn't beat anybody that mattered at 160.

Top 20 all-time P4P? Not sure about that, I'll give him top 50, but he's higher on my list than Tito, and for that matter, Lopez.

Most of your points are weak.. Beating an old Pernell is easier said than done,ask Oscar And Trinidad dominated his division(147) against better fighters than Shane at 135.

Your argument is flawed as soon as you bring up Shane beating Vargas. Tito ruined a prime(or as close as he got to it) Vargas. He destroyed Mayorga. He annihilated and at times ended the career of good fighters like David Reid,Hugo Pineda,William Joppy,Oba Carr,was the first to beat the at the time feared Yory Boy Campas,beat the well rated Blocker and beat Pernell which was hard for anyone whether he was old or not and Camacho.Oh and lost to 2 All time Greats in B Hop and Winky.

And your point about his KO'S is also poor. Like I said,he was a monstor at lightweight but at the higher weights,he does not have the same power,slapping at times(NOT all the time). He has 2 kos in 5,6 years and they were against a shot,shot Vargas.

Oh and finally,you say lets not take anything away from Forrest but Forrest is not as good as Winky or B Hop? And Forrest is a good fighter but for one reason or another,has not lived up to his potential(most likely injuries). His only real big wins have been over Shane twice.

And again,Tito's win over Mayorga,nay his destruction....on a guy that beat Vernon twice.....so I think it mattered. Case closed.

Not really. Mayorga sucks. That doesn't mean crap. Again, Tito was a great welter. Every fighter has matchup problems, and Forrest was Shanes. Winky is just about everyones, except Hopkins. You can't play that who beat who that beat who game. By that logic, your man looks pretty bad because Shane twice beat the guy that made Tito look like a sparring partner. You know better than that, Gamo, matchups make fights, and please, don't try to give Tito much credit for beating a coked out SweetP. And yes, Shane doesn't have the same power at 154, but please, he could and can, many things well. He was/is much more well rounded. Although he might be the most fearsome WW puncher since Hearns, Tito was much more limited.

Too bad they never fought. It would have been a great fight, and I'm 80% sure that Mosely would win (but that's another thread) he would have given him a boxing lesson like Oscar did, but he would have been man enough to fight 12 rounds.

[CFH]

Mosley was easily a top 10 Lightweight ATG.
Not to get too far off topic, but was the guy in that vid wearing the captain's hat that walking peice of shit Panama Lewis?

[SweetPea]

Where does everyone rank Mosley as an all time fighter?....How high does he rank in this era?.....One of the top 5? top 10? of this era?.......

What do you define as "this era"?

In the top 20 P4P of all time?....

No.

Top 30?

No.

[Tam Seddon]

CC for the vid. Cant actually wait for Cotto-Mosley.

[BoomBoom]

Mosley was easily a top 10 Lightweight ATG.
Not to get too far off topic, but was the guy in that vid wearing the captain's hat that walking peice of S*** Panama Lewis?

no i dont think that was him he never worked with Mosley i dont think. The only fighter i know of that he trains right now is Sultan Imbomivog. Hopefully he doesnt try to pull any sh@t on Holyfield.

[El Gamo]

I think it's too difficult to rank him. I'm not particularly good at making ATG lists aside from maybe a top 5 or 10 but I don't see him being a top 20 if I managed to make one.

Why you may ask? Simply put,talent wise,he was SENSATIONAL at the lower weights but at 147 and 154,he has wins over Oscar(1 debateable),Collazo,a shot to heck Vargas and 2 losses to Vernon and 2 losses to Winky. That is not an ATG record. Also at 147/154,I don't think he displays the same power,technique nor speed he did at the lower weights. He slaps alot more with his punches.

Obviously he still has time to increase his legacy and wins over Cotto and Mayweather would make him an ATG but until then,imo, I don't think he's top 20. I can think of RJJ,Pernell,Mayweather,Ricardo Lopez,Tito and maybe a few others from this generation who have more claim to being ATG's than Shane. Again,just my opinion and it can change if someone puts a valid argument forward.

I think he has a better claim than Tito. Tito was a great welter and good at 154, but he didn't really have it as a middleweight, and even in victory, Tito showed his limitations against Oscar. Tito got dismantled by Winky and Hopkins. Let's not take anything away from Forrest. When healthy and in his prime, he was a tremendous fighter. If you want to knock Shane's record, look at Tito's...Sweetpea was shot when Tito beat him, Camacho was past his best, though I think he would have beaten Camacho at any point. You can say Vargas was shot when he fought Shane, but they guy is 6 years and 20 fights younger. Shane is still doing it at a near-peak level at 35 years old. That's gotta count for something. Oh, and with 37 KO's out of 147, I think he's doing a little more than slapping.


In terms of record, they are pretty similar. You can argue that Shane's record isn't better, but I think it's impossible to argue that it's worse. The thing that puts Shane ahead is his success in so many different weight classes. I agree, Shane wasn't dominant at weights other than 135, but he was damn good and near the top. At 135, he was at least as dominant (if not more so) than Tito was at 147, and on top of that, he beat very good fighters all the way up to 154. The only guy Tito beat at 154 was Vargas and he didn't beat anybody that mattered at 160.

Top 20 all-time P4P? Not sure about that, I'll give him top 50, but he's higher on my list than Tito, and for that matter, Lopez.

Most of your points are weak.. Beating an old Pernell is easier said than done,ask Oscar And Trinidad dominated his division(147) against better fighters than Shane at 135.

Your argument is flawed as soon as you bring up Shane beating Vargas. Tito ruined a prime(or as close as he got to it) Vargas. He destroyed Mayorga. He annihilated and at times ended the career of good fighters like David Reid,Hugo Pineda,William Joppy,Oba Carr,was the first to beat the at the time feared Yory Boy Campas,beat the well rated Blocker and beat Pernell which was hard for anyone whether he was old or not and Camacho.Oh and lost to 2 All time Greats in B Hop and Winky.

And your point about his KO'S is also poor. Like I said,he was a monstor at lightweight but at the higher weights,he does not have the same power,slapping at times(NOT all the time). He has 2 kos in 5,6 years and they were against a shot,shot Vargas.

Oh and finally,you say lets not take anything away from Forrest but Forrest is not as good as Winky or B Hop? And Forrest is a good fighter but for one reason or another,has not lived up to his potential(most likely injuries). His only real big wins have been over Shane twice.

And again,Tito's win over Mayorga,nay his destruction....on a guy that beat Vernon twice.....so I think it mattered. Case closed.

Not really. Mayorga sucks. That doesn't mean crap. Again, Tito was a great welter. Every fighter has matchup problems, and Forrest was Shanes. Winky is just about everyones, except Hopkins. You can't play that who beat who that beat who game. By that logic, your man looks pretty bad because Shane twice beat the guy that made Tito look like a sparring partner. You know better than that, Gamo, matchups make fights, and please, don't try to give Tito much credit for beating a coked out SweetP. And yes, Shane doesn't have the same power at 154, but please, he could and can, many things well. He was/is much more well rounded. Although he might be the most fearsome WW puncher since Hearns, Tito was much more limited.

Too bad they never fought. It would have been a great fight, and I'm 80% sure that Mosely would win (but that's another thread) he would have given him a boxing lesson like Oscar did, but he would have been man enough to fight 12 rounds.

I admit when I believe someone is making valid points and I'm sorry but I just don't think you are. Just because styles makes fights does not make a loss anymore more demeaning. If that's the case then stlyes make fights,Tito had the wrong style to face B Hop therefore that loss does not really count

"Mayorga sucks"- errrrmmmmm,he beat Vernon. TWICE. I'm not using the who beat who beat who game apart from to show how silly your statements are that Mayorga sucks. Well then if he beat Vernon twice,by your wording,how bad does that make Vernon look?

And people that say Trinidad was limited haven't watched enough Tito. He had power in both hands. KO power. He had a shotgun jab. He had the best left hook at the time and the best straight right hand. He had decent foot movement. That's doesn't sound limited to me.Limited is(for example) a guy who has KO power in 1 hand and nothing else,like a Juan Urango. That;s limited.

and to say you're 80% sure he would beat Tito means nothing. You were probably 100% sure he would beat Vernon. And I could just as easily say I'm 82% sure Tito would beat him.

And you totally ignored my naming of the big names on Tito's resume which is superior to Shane's resume imo. Abd last I recalled when I checked Tito's record,he has a W v Oscar and Oscar didn't want a rematch/>

I'm not convinced by any of the points for Shane to be an ATG top 20 or whatever. An easy ATG top 10 for lightweight for sure but that does not equate to top 20 of all time. No doubt he is a very very good fighter but he still has some ground to cover,in my opinion,if he is to be an ATG,

[RozzySean]

I think it's too difficult to rank him. I'm not particularly good at making ATG lists aside from maybe a top 5 or 10 but I don't see him being a top 20 if I managed to make one.

Why you may ask? Simply put,talent wise,he was SENSATIONAL at the lower weights but at 147 and 154,he has wins over Oscar(1 debateable),Collazo,a shot to heck Vargas and 2 losses to Vernon and 2 losses to Winky. That is not an ATG record. Also at 147/154,I don't think he displays the same power,technique nor speed he did at the lower weights. He slaps alot more with his punches.

Obviously he still has time to increase his legacy and wins over Cotto and Mayweather would make him an ATG but until then,imo, I don't think he's top 20. I can think of RJJ,Pernell,Mayweather,Ricardo Lopez,Tito and maybe a few others from this generation who have more claim to being ATG's than Shane. Again,just my opinion and it can change if someone puts a valid argument forward.

I think he has a better claim than Tito. Tito was a great welter and good at 154, but he didn't really have it as a middleweight, and even in victory, Tito showed his limitations against Oscar. Tito got dismantled by Winky and Hopkins. Let's not take anything away from Forrest. When healthy and in his prime, he was a tremendous fighter. If you want to knock Shane's record, look at Tito's...Sweetpea was shot when Tito beat him, Camacho was past his best, though I think he would have beaten Camacho at any point. You can say Vargas was shot when he fought Shane, but they guy is 6 years and 20 fights younger. Shane is still doing it at a near-peak level at 35 years old. That's gotta count for something. Oh, and with 37 KO's out of 147, I think he's doing a little more than slapping.


In terms of record, they are pretty similar. You can argue that Shane's record isn't better, but I think it's impossible to argue that it's worse. The thing that puts Shane ahead is his success in so many different weight classes. I agree, Shane wasn't dominant at weights other than 135, but he was damn good and near the top. At 135, he was at least as dominant (if not more so) than Tito was at 147, and on top of that, he beat very good fighters all the way up to 154. The only guy Tito beat at 154 was Vargas and he didn't beat anybody that mattered at 160.

Top 20 all-time P4P? Not sure about that, I'll give him top 50, but he's higher on my list than Tito, and for that matter, Lopez.

Most of your points are weak.. Beating an old Pernell is easier said than done,ask Oscar And Trinidad dominated his division(147) against better fighters than Shane at 135.

Your argument is flawed as soon as you bring up Shane beating Vargas. Tito ruined a prime(or as close as he got to it) Vargas. He destroyed Mayorga. He annihilated and at times ended the career of good fighters like David Reid,Hugo Pineda,William Joppy,Oba Carr,was the first to beat the at the time feared Yory Boy Campas,beat the well rated Blocker and beat Pernell which was hard for anyone whether he was old or not and Camacho.Oh and lost to 2 All time Greats in B Hop and Winky.

And your point about his KO'S is also poor. Like I said,he was a monstor at lightweight but at the higher weights,he does not have the same power,slapping at times(NOT all the time). He has 2 kos in 5,6 years and they were against a shot,shot Vargas.

Oh and finally,you say lets not take anything away from Forrest but Forrest is not as good as Winky or B Hop? And Forrest is a good fighter but for one reason or another,has not lived up to his potential(most likely injuries). His only real big wins have been over Shane twice.

And again,Tito's win over Mayorga,nay his destruction....on a guy that beat Vernon twice.....so I think it mattered. Case closed.

Not really. Mayorga sucks. That doesn't mean crap. Again, Tito was a great welter. Every fighter has matchup problems, and Forrest was Shanes. Winky is just about everyones, except Hopkins. You can't play that who beat who that beat who game. By that logic, your man looks pretty bad because Shane twice beat the guy that made Tito look like a sparring partner. You know better than that, Gamo, matchups make fights, and please, don't try to give Tito much credit for beating a coked out SweetP. And yes, Shane doesn't have the same power at 154, but please, he could and can, many things well. He was/is much more well rounded. Although he might be the most fearsome WW puncher since Hearns, Tito was much more limited.

Too bad they never fought. It would have been a great fight, and I'm 80% sure that Mosely would win (but that's another thread) he would have given him a boxing lesson like Oscar did, but he would have been man enough to fight 12 rounds.

I admit when I believe someone is making valid points and I'm sorry but I just don't think you are. Just because styles makes fights does not make a loss anymore more demeaning. If that's the case then stlyes make fights,Tito had the wrong style to face B Hop therefore that loss does not really count

"Mayorga sucks"- errrrmmmmm,he beat Vernon. TWICE. I'm not using the who beat who beat who game apart from to show how silly your statements are that Mayorga sucks. Well then if he beat Vernon twice,by your wording,how bad does that make Vernon look?

And people that say Trinidad was limited haven't watched enough Tito. He had power in both hands. KO power. He had a shotgun jab. He had the best left hook at the time and the best straight right hand. He had decent foot movement. That's doesn't sound limited to me.Limited is(for example) a guy who has KO power in 1 hand and nothing else,like a Juan Urango. That;s limited.

and to say you're 80% sure he would beat Tito means nothing. You were probably 100% sure he would beat Vernon. And I could just as easily say I'm 82% sure Tito would beat him.

And you totally ignored my naming of the big names on Tito's resume which is superior to Shane's resume imo. Abd last I recalled when I checked Tito's record,he has a W v Oscar and Oscar didn't want a rematch/>

I'm not convinced by any of the points for Shane to be an ATG top 20 or whatever. An easy ATG top 10 for lightweight for sure but that does not equate to top 20 of all time. No doubt he is a very very good fighter but he still has some ground to cover,in my opinion,if he is to be an ATG,

I should have put a by Mayorga sucks. I was being a little sarcastic. I never said he was top 20 ATG. He's not. Neither is Tito, and I think the guys you see as big names, to me are just pretty good names. Anyway, I'm off going to Fenway to see Schilling beat Clemens ass. I'm out.

[CFH]

Mosley was easily a top 10 Lightweight ATG.
Not to get too far off topic, but was the guy in that vid wearing the captain's hat that walking peice of S*** Panama Lewis?

no i dont think that was him he never worked with Mosley i dont think. The only fighter i know of that he trains right now is Sultan Imbomivog. Hopefully he doesnt try to pull any sh@t on Holyfield.

CC for the info. I wasn't sure if it was him or not, and like you I've never heard of Lewis working with SSM, and honestly Mosley seems like too classy a guy to have anything to do with that cockbag. It's just whenever I see a captains hat in a boxing context I assume its Lewis and my blood starts to boil.

[Boxerharvey]

Mosley is oner of my favourite boxers ever, He was so fast and powerfull at light weight no one could touch him. As he moved up weights yes he lost some of his speed and power but he had so much heart and never ducked any fighter. He was always in great shape, he never disrespected his opponents and when he did lose to Forrest & Wright he got straight back in the ring with them for the rematch not many fighters would have done that especially when they lost so convincingly in the first fights like Shane did. I just hope that Shane gets his chance at fighting Mayweather because apart from Hatton I think he is the only fighter out there that can come close to beating PBF!! I love watching the first Mosley ODLH fight I have seen it so many times and it never ceases to excite me!!

[The Rookie Fan]

At the risk of making this a Mosley vs Tito thread I'm gonna add my 2 cents into the argument.

First off, I don't think it is a fair comparison. Mosley was the best Lightweight of his time and Tito was the best Welterweight of his time and we should leave it at that.

In temrs of accomplishments Mosley has dominated the lightweight division, moved up 2 weight classes (At that time no one wanted any part of KT and who could blame him) to make a succesful campaign at a 147 title. However, he never could defend his titles at 147 and 154 for long after this. We should note that the quality of opposition that he faced had increased dramatically at this stage in his career.

He will always be well respected for taking on the best possible opponent even though it was not convinient or made the best money. He also constantly seeked rematches when he lossed or there was a doubt on the winner. This is something I wished with all my boxing fan hart that Tito would've done.

Trinidad had remarkably similar accomplishments. He cleaned out the 147 pound division. We should note that at the time, this division was jammed packed with talent. Say what you want about the DLH fight. He still won and IMO prooved to be the better man in the following years (not to mention that Tito had already had a fight at 154 and was having serious trouble making weight ever since the Whitaker fight).

He went on to steam roll through the 154 lb division. Reed and Vargas might have been a little green but they were both excelent, undefeated fighters. Why don't you try and tell Winky Wright that Vargas was just a good fighter and not all that great.

Tito then became a 160 pound champion when he beat William Joppy. Asside from his loss to Julio Cesar Green, Joppy had been a champion for almost as long as Bernard and was considered the seccond best 160 lber..... and Tito destroyed him.

We could say that Mosley was not any more successfull at 154 than Tito was at 160. Given that Mosley was number 2 to Wright like Tito was number 2 to B-Hop.

The one problem with Tito and the thing that bothers most people about him is that he retired after both losses instead of seeking more big fights like rematch with DLH or even Hopkins. Wright is just a stylistic nightmare for Tito and he should stay away from him as he should've stayed away from him before and made the fight with Mosley on his comback.

As for who would beat who.... Man if it weren't for Wright... What a great fight we all missed. I have little doubt that Tito would've beaten Mosley for two reasons. One, had they made that fight in 2004 it would've been at 154 which woull've been a great advantage for Tito as he was great at that weight. Two, Mosley was, is, and will allways be a brawler. Were this idea about Mosley outboxing Tito came from, I'll never know. He was freaky fast but he was never a pure boxer. Still it would be a great fight and a close one too.

Back to the subject at hand.

I don't like P4P All Time Great lists. I think people should do iether a current P4P list or an All Time Great list by division. P4P all Time Great lists just have too many variables and too many subjective arguments and I just don't like them. With that said I think Mosley is a top 5 All Time Lightweight and at his prime was briefly at the top of many P4P lists. That IMHO makes him an all time great.

[El Gamo]

At the risk of making this a Mosley vs Tito thread I'm gonna add my 2 cents into the argument.

First off, I don't think it is a fair comparison. Mosley was the best Lightweight of his time and Tito was the best Welterweight of his time and we should leave it at that.

In temrs of accomplishments Mosley has dominated the lightweight division, moved up 2 weight classes (At that time no one wanted any part of KT and who could blame him) to make a succesful campaign at a 147 title. However, he never could defend his titles at 147 and 154 for long after this. We should note that the quality of opposition that he faced had increased dramatically at this stage in his career.

He will always be well respected for taking on the best possible opponent even though it was not convinient or made the best money. He also constantly seeked rematches when he lossed or there was a doubt on the winner. This is something I wished with all my boxing fan hart that Tito would've done.

Trinidad had remarkably similar accomplishments. He cleaned out the 147 pound division. We should note that at the time, this division was jammed packed with talent. Say what you want about the DLH fight. He still won and IMO prooved to be the better man in the following years (not to mention that Tito had already had a fight at 154 and was having serious trouble making weight ever since the Whitaker fight).

He went on to steam roll through the 154 lb division. Reed and Vargas might have been a little green but they were both excelent, undefeated fighters. Why don't you try and tell Winky Wright that Vargas was just a good fighter and not all that great.

Tito then became a 160 pound champion when he beat William Joppy. Asside from his loss to Julio Cesar Green, Joppy had been a champion for almost as long as Bernard and was considered the seccond best 160 lber..... and Tito destroyed him.

We could say that Mosley was not any more successfull at 154 than Tito was at 160. Given that Mosley was number 2 to Wright like Tito was number 2 to B-Hop.

The one problem with Tito and the thing that bothers most people about him is that he retired after both losses instead of seeking more big fights like rematch with DLH or even Hopkins. Wright is just a stylistic nightmare for Tito and he should stay away from him as he should've stayed away from him before and made the fight with Mosley on his comback.

As for who would beat who.... Man if it weren't for Wright... What a great fight we all missed. I have little doubt that Tito would've beaten Mosley for two reasons. One, had they made that fight in 2004 it would've been at 154 which woull've been a great advantage for Tito as he was great at that weight. Two, Mosley was, is, and will allways be a brawler. Were this idea about Mosley outboxing Tito came from, I'll never know. He was freaky fast but he was never a pure boxer. Still it would be a great fight and a close one too.

Back to the subject at hand.

I don't like P4P All Time Great lists. I think people should do iether a current P4P list or an All Time Great list by division. P4P all Time Great lists just have too many variables and too many subjective arguments and I just don't like them. With that said I think Mosley is a top 5 All Time Lightweight and at his prime was briefly at the top of many P4P lists. That IMHO makes him an all time great.

CC,that;s an excellent post and I think,IF I had to make an all time top 50,SSM would be there. You made your points well. I totally agree with the highlighted points above all else.

[The Rookie Fan]

I'm gonna go ahead and CC both you, Gamo and SeanE for good debate that I just had to get into. LOL