Miguel Cotto, I salute you, but...

[Sugar_Shaw]

Cotto did win but it was razor close. I agree that Mosley would give Mayweather more problems than Cotto though

[Wacko3205]

You have some fair points Wacko... and I am just trying to seriously get your opinion, not trying to prove you wrong or anything because I respect what you have to say.

Not saying you were trying to prove me wrong...a difference in opinions is that & only that...this aint fact checking 101. What I see to be fact may in fact just be my wishes through rose colored shades.

The only fact that counts is that Cotto proved me & many others wrong & walked with the win.

I watched the fight again and I had Cotto winning by 1, but some of those rounds are so hard to give to either guy because Mosley would win the first minute and a half and Cotto would win the last, and its easier to give to the guy who is stronger later in the round. I felt both the first and second time watching the fight that no quesiton Cotto was bullying Mosley more than vice virsa until whatever happened, but I don't believe whatever it was just magically happened, I think Mosley's punches wore Cotto down, to a degree.

Agreed...the rounds were close...but Cotto was the more effective, IWHO.

I can honestly say I haven't seen Cotto's first 20 fights, but I have seen him from Corley up till now, and the Maussa fight. He was a good boxer, but he has really improved in this aspect as he's come along he hasn't just maintained at a certain level, but from the fights I've seen he has been a puncher-boxer, but more of a puncher, but even a good boxer like Collazo has a hard time catching Mosley because of his speed.

Then you really need to see his first 20 fights...he fought Shane like he did his first twenty fights...but, if I am being honest, I liked him better as the boxer puncher more than the brawler boxer that he became.

Cotto was more systematic in his approach in his early bouts. He started off with the body & then totally decimated the head.

Now he just goes in & starts busting up both. He was more systematic against Mosley...but I still say that Mosley's greatness made it a ruff night for Cotto.

About why I think Mosley can get Mayweather backed up on the ropes a lot more than against Cotto. Look how many combinations Oscar got off on Mayweather when he got him on the rope, and thats because Mayweather doesn't have the power to keep Mosley off of him, and also unlike Cotto, its not in Mayweather best interest to trade punches with Mosley so he would back off. Styles make fights, and I think Mosley would realize he can't outbox Mayweather from the outside because of Mayweather's timing, defense, and superior jab, but with his speed he could find more success in situations where Oscar would miss 9 punches and get countered.

Oscar didn't really get combo's off against Floyd...uneffective flurries & combo's are waaaay to far apart on the scoring scale for me to say that Oscar was anywhere remotely close to getting at Floyd are even being successful.

The main thing that ruins everyone with Floyd is his defense & the fact that he fights smart & concentrates on the score of the bout. Floyd constantly listens to what the announcers have to say & when he hears that he's lagging he usually picks up the pace...as a fighter...that's incredible. Honestly...I don't know of anyone else that stays that aware & focused while on the mat.

Floyd is no god...he will be beaten...most likely...but I don't know of anyone on the horizon right now that I would securely state as the man to do so.

While I will stick by my initial thoughts from months ago...Shane will be the man to trouble Floyd...I can't say that I still see him as the man to beat Floyd.

[ICB]

You may have won that fight(could go either way, but I favored Mosley if that matters). You took advantage of Mosley's overrated boxing skills, especially defensively, and his bad timing. You showed us your ability to box, and take a punch. However, Mosley won almost the whole first half of the fight, and he won the last few rounds which included him overpowering you(Yet you showed the best boxing of the whole night going backwards). Mosley was breathing hard from round 2, yet as the fight went on he was stronger than you were. Also when Mosley was on the move you, Miguel, had a hard time catching him... Have fun with Floyd. I don't believe you have the pressure, stamina, or ability to beat Floyd if you fight in the next 2-3 years.

As for Mosley I congradulate you on winning the fight, and I hope you get a fight with Mayweather when Cotto fights Margarito because I believe your speed causes more problems for Floyd than Cotto does, because Floyd is the master of timing(except when comparing him to Roy JOnes Jr.), but Cotto doesn't use enough pressure, doesn't get in there enough, and doesn't have the defensive skills or footwork to beat Mayweather.

Also I think everything I said was right. I thought it was a close fight, but Mosley's speed and strength IMO really gave Cotto a hard time, and Cotto gave MOsley a hell of a fight(perhaps challenged him physically more than anyone except Vernon Forest).

You may have won that fight(could go either way, but I favored Mosley if that matters). You took advantage of Mosley's overrated boxing skills, especially defensively, and his bad timing. You showed us your ability to box, and take a punch. However, Mosley won almost the whole first half of the fight, and he won the last few rounds which included him overpowering you(Yet you showed the best boxing of the whole night going backwards). Mosley was breathing hard from round 2, yet as the fight went on he was stronger than you were. Also when Mosley was on the move you, Miguel, had a hard time catching him... Have fun with Floyd. I don't believe you have the pressure, stamina, or ability to beat Floyd if you fight in the next 2-3 years.

I totally disagree with this Mosley's boxing skills are not overrated his loss to Forrest was due to Forrest being much bigger than Mosley and i truly believe the headbutt Mosley suffered affected him quite badly and remember in the rematch Mosley done alot better and some people even think he won it and as for Wright Lightmiddleweight was little too far for Mosley at Lightmiddleweight Wright was just too big for Mosley and was naturally much stronger man plus southpaws like coming forward and because Wright was naturally stronger than Mosley, Mosley could not back Wright up that doesn't make Mosley's boxing skills overrated and Cotto won most of the early rounds vs Mosley.


As for Mosley I congradulate you on winning the fight, and I hope you get a fight with Mayweather when Cotto fights Margarito because I believe your speed causes more problems for Floyd than Cotto does, because Floyd is the master of timing(except when comparing him to Roy JOnes Jr.), but Cotto doesn't use enough pressure, doesn't get in there enough, and doesn't have the defensive skills or footwork to beat Mayweather

Mosley did not win the fight Cotto won it Mosley done very well and made it very close but Cotto won a close cut decision and yes perhaps Mosley might give Mayweather more trouble style wise but who knows ?? Cotto is very good fighter and isn't one dimensional and is underrated in speed department and he managed to catch fast fighters like Judah and Mosley.

[ICB]

You have some fair points Wacko... and I am just trying to seriously get your opinion, not trying to prove you wrong or anything because I respect what you have to say.
I watched the fight again and I had Cotto winning by 1, but some of those rounds are so hard to give to either guy because Mosley would win the first minute and a half and Cotto would win the last, and its easier to give to the guy who is stronger later in the round. I felt both the first and second time watching the fight that no quesiton Cotto was bullying Mosley more than vice virsa until whatever happened, but I don't believe whatever it was just magically happened, I think Mosley's punches wore Cotto down, to a degree.

I can honestly say I haven't seen Cotto's first 20 fights, but I have seen him from Corley up till now, and the Maussa fight. He was a good boxer, but he has really improved in this aspect as he's come along he hasn't just maintained at a certain level, but from the fights I've seen he has been a puncher-boxer, but more of a puncher, but even a good boxer like Collazo has a hard time catching Mosley because of his speed.

As for Mosley, I think he is a great fighter, and one of the best fighters of the last decade, but I think he would always a lot of trouble against a pure boxer who isn't afraid of the situation... Collazo whether it was because he hurt his hand or whatever was really gun shy, and he was doing well early on, and something obviously changed and it wasn't all Mosley. Mosley isn't a pure boxer in any shape or form because he is too much of a warrior. If he gets hit he will try to respond right away at the risk of getting hit again. IMO he is too offensive minded, and he doesn't use enough footwork to be a pure boxer, he has always been a puncher-boxer. As for against Wright, and Forrest its understandble for him to lose against them, I think they would give anyone a run for their money at the time he fought either of them, but he was the smaller man, and he couldn't adjust to being the smaller man which is another thing a pure boxer can do, when Mayweather moved up to welterweight and junior middleweight he has been able to succeed at these weights because he can stay away, and not get hit. Oscar Dela Hoya was able to become a more pure boxer as he moved up in weight which also helped him, but MOsley continued to fight the same way he did when he was at the smaller weights except that he wasn't able to get his combinations off anymore.

About why I think Mosley can get Mayweather backed up on the ropes a lot more than against Cotto. Look how many combinations Oscar got off on Mayweather when he got him on the rope, and thats because Mayweather doesn't have the power to keep Mosley off of him, and also unlike Cotto, its not in Mayweather best interest to trade punches with Mosley so he would back off. Styles make fights, and I think Mosley would realize he can't outbox Mayweather from the outside because of Mayweather's timing, defense, and superior jab, but with his speed he could find more success in situations where Oscar would miss 9 punches and get countered.

You have some fair points Wacko... and I am just trying to seriously get your opinion, not trying to prove you wrong or anything because I respect what you have to say.
I watched the fight again and I had Cotto winning by 1, but some of those rounds are so hard to give to either guy because Mosley would win the first minute and a half and Cotto would win the last, and its easier to give to the guy who is stronger later in the round. I felt both the first and second time watching the fight that no quesiton Cotto was bullying Mosley more than vice virsa until whatever happened, but I don't believe whatever it was just magically happened, I think Mosley's punches wore Cotto down, to a degree.

I had Cotto winning 7-5 and i also feel even though Mosley landed more power punches i feel that some of Cotto's jabs could of been counted as power shot's Cotto's jabs are like straight lefts and they were rocking Mosley's head back i do agree it was a close fight but Cotto just did enough and Cotto impressed me with his boxing skills and Mosley's punches did hurt a ware down Cotto i agree with that aswell i didn't expect Mosley to back Cotto up on the ropes as much as he did.

I can honestly say I haven't seen Cotto's first 20 fights, but I have seen him from Corley up till now, and the Maussa fight. He was a good boxer, but he has really improved in this aspect as he's come along he hasn't just maintained at a certain level, but from the fights I've seen he has been a puncher-boxer, but more of a puncher, but even a good boxer like Collazo has a hard time catching Mosley because of his speed.

Cotto really impressed me against Sosa the way he took his time and destroyed Sosa who gave Mayweather a good arguement was really impressve and another fight that really caught my eye was Cotto's fight with Mohamad Abdulaev Cotto was backing up and actually countering Mohamad Abdulaev and showed really good boxing skills.

As for Mosley, I think he is a great fighter, and one of the best fighters of the last decade, but I think he would always a lot of trouble against a pure boxer who isn't afraid of the situation... Collazo whether it was because he hurt his hand or whatever was really gun shy, and he was doing well early on, and something obviously changed and it wasn't all Mosley. Mosley isn't a pure boxer in any shape or form because he is too much of a warrior. If he gets hit he will try to respond right away at the risk of getting hit again. IMO he is too offensive minded, and he doesn't use enough footwork to be a pure boxer, he has always been a puncher-boxer. As for against Wright, and Forrest its understandble for him to lose against them, I think they would give anyone a run for their money at the time he fought either of them, but he was the smaller man, and he couldn't adjust to being the smaller man which is another thing a pure boxer can do, when Mayweather moved up to welterweight and junior middleweight he has been able to succeed at these weights because he can stay away, and not get hit. Oscar Dela Hoya was able to become a more pure boxer as he moved up in weight which also helped him, but MOsley continued to fight the same way he did when he was at the smaller weights except that he wasn't able to get his combinations off anymore.

Mosley has only ever had trouble against tall rangy fighters its nothing to do with Wright, Forrest, being *pure boxers* its because of the height advantage Forrest and Winky had plus Wright was much naturally much stronger than Mosley and as for Collazo i didn't think he was doing that well early on he was still gun shy even in early going Mosley was just too fast and much too good for Collazo and Mosley is a boxer mixed in with a brawler he can brawl and box but i will agree with you Mosley isn't 100 percent pure boxer and he sure does like to get in there and slug it out but thats what makes him the amazing fighter he is.

[ono]

I feel that Mayweather would have to put on an absolute clinic to stop either Hatton or Cotto from taking him to the well....seriously.

The fact that Cotto didn't show the necessary skills to beat Mayweather on Saturday night means diddly squat.....because he was fighting shane mosley on Saturday night and he sure as hell showed the necessary skills to beat him.

He'll obviously adjust his gameplan to fight Mayweather....and he is very capable of giving floyd a hard time, as is Hatton by the way.

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

Then you really need to see his first 20 fights...he fought Shane like he did his first twenty fights...but, if I am being honest, I liked him better as the boxer puncher more than the brawler boxer that he became.

Cotto was more systematic in his approach in his early bouts. He started off with the body & then totally decimated the head.

Now he just goes in & starts busting up both. He was more systematic against Mosley...but I still say that Mosley's greatness made it a ruff night for Cotto.

Agreed. I first saw Cotto (when he had hair!) against Bailey. I remember the comentators talking him up as a methodical, patient typa fighter.

What suprised my most about Cotto (and someone... Eli i think, predicted this, so they deserve there props) was how he was able to out jab Mosley, the suposedly faster, longer limbed, boxer through out the early rounds.


I just wanna say I WISH Mosley would of follwed those overhand rights wit somthing form underneath. Would of took Cotto's freakin head off!!

[The Rookie Fan]

The funny thing is that even when Cotto backed off in the later rounds, he actually out boxxed Shane. That was amazing and unexpected. The 11th round in particular was great.

[The Boxer]

man cotto was landed some good righhands early on. that was a close fight IMO. what did shane say in the interview because he didn't seem surprise that he loss the fight. which surprise me because the fight could have gone either way.

cotto has been really impressing me lately. he's come along way since that righthand from chop chop that wobble the fuck out him.

PBF Cotto needs to happen.

[Wacko3205]

man cotto was landed some good righhands early on. that was a close fight IMO. what did shane say in the interview because he didn't seem surprise that he loss the fight. which surprise me because the fight could have gone either way.

That the better man won...basically.

cotto has been really impressing me lately. he's come along way since that righthand from chop chop that wobble the F*** out him.

Agreed.

Oddly enough...this is the one time that I think the weight jump helped a fighter out tremendously.

Cotto's beard seems to have thickened on the rise & he's carried his speed & power with him.

PBF Cotto needs to happen.

No way. I don't want to see Cotto lose.

[ICB]

You have some fair points Wacko... and I am just trying to seriously get your opinion, not trying to prove you wrong or anything because I respect what you have to say.

Not saying you were trying to prove me wrong...a difference in opinions is that & only that...this aint fact checking 101. What I see to be fact may in fact just be my wishes through rose colored shades.

The only fact that counts is that Cotto proved me & many others wrong & walked with the win.

I watched the fight again and I had Cotto winning by 1, but some of those rounds are so hard to give to either guy because Mosley would win the first minute and a half and Cotto would win the last, and its easier to give to the guy who is stronger later in the round. I felt both the first and second time watching the fight that no quesiton Cotto was bullying Mosley more than vice virsa until whatever happened, but I don't believe whatever it was just magically happened, I think Mosley's punches wore Cotto down, to a degree.

Agreed...the rounds were close...but Cotto was the more effective, IWHO.

I can honestly say I haven't seen Cotto's first 20 fights, but I have seen him from Corley up till now, and the Maussa fight. He was a good boxer, but he has really improved in this aspect as he's come along he hasn't just maintained at a certain level, but from the fights I've seen he has been a puncher-boxer, but more of a puncher, but even a good boxer like Collazo has a hard time catching Mosley because of his speed.

Then you really need to see his first 20 fights...he fought Shane like he did his first twenty fights...but, if I am being honest, I liked him better as the boxer puncher more than the brawler boxer that he became.

Cotto was more systematic in his approach in his early bouts. He started off with the body & then totally decimated the head.

Now he just goes in & starts busting up both. He was more systematic against Mosley...but I still say that Mosley's greatness made it a ruff night for Cotto.

About why I think Mosley can get Mayweather backed up on the ropes a lot more than against Cotto. Look how many combinations Oscar got off on Mayweather when he got him on the rope, and thats because Mayweather doesn't have the power to keep Mosley off of him, and also unlike Cotto, its not in Mayweather best interest to trade punches with Mosley so he would back off. Styles make fights, and I think Mosley would realize he can't outbox Mayweather from the outside because of Mayweather's timing, defense, and superior jab, but with his speed he could find more success in situations where Oscar would miss 9 punches and get countered.

Oscar didn't really get combo's off against Floyd...uneffective flurries & combo's are waaaay to far apart on the scoring scale for me to say that Oscar was anywhere remotely close to getting at Floyd are even being successful.

The main thing that ruins everyone with Floyd is his defense & the fact that he fights smart & concentrates on the score of the bout. Floyd constantly listens to what the announcers have to say & when he hears that he's lagging he usually picks up the pace...as a fighter...that's incredible. Honestly...I don't know of anyone else that stays that aware & focused while on the mat.

Floyd is no god...he will be beaten...most likely...but I don't know of anyone on the horizon right now that I would securely state as the man to do so.

While I will stick by my initial thoughts from months ago...Shane will be the man to trouble Floyd...I can't say that I still see him as the man to beat Floyd.

Agreed...the rounds were close...but Cotto was the more effective, IWHO.

I agree i think Cotto won rounds more clearly than Mosley.

Then you really need to see his first 20 fights...he fought Shane like he did his first twenty fights...but, if I am being honest, I liked him better as the boxer puncher more than the brawler boxer that he became.

Cotto was more systematic in his approach in his early bouts. He started off with the body & then totally decimated the head.

Now he just goes in & starts busting up both. He was more systematic against Mosley...but I still say that Mosley's greatness made it a ruff night for Cotto.

Agreed he showed good counter punching skills against the tough Mohamad Abdulaev who was backing him up for most of the fight and he showed great patient and good timing against Sosa.

Oscar didn't really get combo's off against Floyd...uneffective flurries & combo's are waaaay to far apart on the scoring scale for me to say that Oscar was anywhere remotely close to getting at Floyd are even being successful.

Agreed again Oscar fooled alot of people with those combos but if people go back and watch it in slow motion they would realize the combos were ineffective and they were missing.

The main thing that ruins everyone with Floyd is his defense & the fact that he fights smart & concentrates on the score of the bout. Floyd constantly listens to what the announcers have to say & when he hears that he's lagging he usually picks up the pace...as a fighter...that's incredible. Honestly...I don't know of anyone else that stays that aware & focused while on the mat.

See im different to most people Wacko i love watching an incredibly skilled boxer like Mayweather it reminds me of watching Whitaker and you are right about Mayweather listening to the commentating do you remember his fight with Henry Bruseles when they were talking about Mayweather and Mayweather replied to them saying *The Patriots* god that was funny.

[Wacko3205]

See im different to most people Wacko i love watching an incredibly skilled boxer like Mayweather it reminds me of watching Whitaker and you are right about Mayweather listening to the commentating do you remember his fight with Henry Bruseles when they were talking about Mayweather and Mayweather replied to them saying *The Patriots* god that was funny.

Yep. I agree...Floyd is a reminder of some of the great speedster/slicksters of old...but I love Floyd's style in a whole different way. The thing is...you have to really like that style of boxing...one where a fighter utilizes hit & not get hit more than blazing in & hitting & taking shit to get to the mark.

I can see both styles...& sometimes see where fans that hate Floyd are coming from...but just because you want to see a man get battered to give a beating...doesn't make Floyd wrong. Fighting smart does not equate to running.

People are just a bit too critical of boxers that fight like that. Cotto fought smart for the last round of his fight against Molsey & people immediately started saying he was running...now that's just gotdam stupidity for you right there.

Also...I remember the Brusseles bout. He was actually answering questions to Lampley while popping Brusseles back & forth. That was indeed classic.

Not sure if you know this...a lot of peeps either don't or forgot...but Brusseles was Cotto's sparring partner...not for that fight...but for some other bout...anywho...Cotto was in the 2nd or 3rd row getting an eyeball on Floyd for that match & reinstated that he wasn't ready for Floyd.

Cotto already voiced that answer a few years ago, just prior to Floyd becoming a free agent. They were both training in the same gym & Floyd made a statement that he might be ready in a few years & Cotto said something to the degree that he wasn't going to be...this was a couple of fights before he moved up to 147.

My my my how things change.

If you look at the rankings & now the opponents list...Cotto's probably about to starting beating on Floyd's door with a much different answer to that annual question.

[Taeth]

Ok because of my scoring mistake I had MOsley winning the fight, but I have Cotto winning by 1 round just to let people know, he wasn't using effective pressure in the late rounds, and that cost him the victory when Cotto started fighiting backwards, but truth be told Cotto might have outboxed him going backwards regardless.

However about Mosley it isn't just about size, and it wasn't just Wright and Vernon who beat him... Oscar who is only an inch and a half taller than Mosley and he outboxed Mosley in their second fight. Phillip Holiday gave Mosley an hard fight because Mosley couldn't be a pure boxer... When you see Leonard, Or Ali, or Floyd, or Roy Jones Jr. you see a pure boxer, its not necessarily the jab, but a guy who can really use his feet, and doesn't have to stand right in front of his opponent. Mosley said he was going to use angles against Wright in their first fight, but he wasn't able to partly because of Wright, and partly because he didn't have the footwork or mentality to fight like that. The height and jab was the reason these two had success where smaller guys couldn't handle his speed, but for true boxers size shouldn't as big of an issue as it was for Mosley at least against Forest.

Vernon Forest was a good fighter, but he was no Thomas Hearns, and I believe that Mayweather would be able to beat that version of Forest at welterweight because great boxers get in and out without being hit. Maybe it was because of Jack Mosley or maybe its his warrior heart, but Mosley is stand in front you type of fighter who doesn't do things like move and jab. You guys might say Mayweather and ROy JOnes jr. don't really use their jab, but Floyd used it very effectively against Oscar, and earlier in his career it was a center piece of his arsenal. Roy Jones Jr. was fast enough that his right hand became his jab, but he used his actual jab a lot to set up other punches.

Also Wacko, I'll try to find earlier Cotto fights, but I think his pressure was the key to him beating Paulie, and Zab Judah.

[Taeth]

Just so people know, this thread was created by the same person who asked:
"What has Arguello done that makes him a great"

Thats your opinion... IMO the only great fighter he fought was Aaron Pryor, and it was a style match up that was favorable to him. I think he was definitely really good, but I don't personally feel he is an ATG because his record was largely padded, and he lost both times in what I feel were his defining fights.

[ICB]

Just so people know, this thread was created by the same person who asked:
"What has Arguello done that makes him a great"

Thats your opinion... IMO the only great fighter he fought was Aaron Pryor, and it was a style match up that was favorable to him. I think he was definitely really good, but I don't personally feel he is an ATG because his record was largely padded, and he lost both times in what I feel were his defining fights.

IMO the only great fighter he fought was Aaron Pryor

Ruben Olivares
Ruben Castillo
Bobby Chacon
Rafael Limon
Cornelius Boza Edwards
Ray Mancini
Jose Legra

Not all great but still good names there.

[Taeth]

He definitely fought some good opponents, but I just never felt like he would do well against guys like Duran, Dela Hoya, Mosley, Whitaker, M. Taylor. I like him, but I think he fought in a weak era at his weight.