60's ALI: there is no HW great that could have beaten him.

[Mr140]

When he was sparing he was still just learning and he did not have a huge amatuer career. Holmes would give any version of Ali troble his Jab being a major factor because it would make Ali have a hard time using his major weapon the jab. Not saying who win but i just saying Holmes in prime had a good chance at beating a prime Ali to think other wise is silly. Lennox he had all the tools to beat Ali if he was train and motivated Lennox could have one of the best chances at beating Ali with a good reach advantage and knock out power he would be a nightmare for Ali and any other heavyweight.

[THE THIRD MAN]

The Ali of 1966/7 was close but not yet in his prime, had he not have been stopped from fighting i think he would have been at his peak by mid 1968 and nobody would have beaten him at this time.
The Ali that fought Cleveland Williams would not have lost to anyone IMO.

[Trainer Monkey]

think about it--no1 could--frazier, louis, dempesy , marciano, holmes, foreman,holyfield ,tyson, and yes norton. the 60's ali was the REAL ali-FLABSLAB. no1 1 could have beaten the 60's ali

This ain't the same *Unbeatable 60s Ali* that got a gift decision against the Mediocre Doug Jones, or the same Ali that almost got KO by Cruiserweight Henry Cooper, and had to have smelling salts which wern't allowed in UK, plus have his glove split to help him survive.

Plenty could of have beaten him.

Prime Riddick Bowe
Prime Larry Holmes
Prime Lennox Lewis
Prime Joe Louis

Etc.

Oh do please,I like Holmes,but the very best Holmes there ever was couldnt knock him out even though he allready had Parkinsons
And before you say something foolish about reach or size,Ali was 6'2 and had good reach even by todays standards

Tale of tape
Muhammad Ali
Height 6 foot 2
Reach 80 inches
Weight approx 220.

Lennox Lewis
Height: 6 foot 5
Reach: 85 inches
Weight: approx 255

Nuff said.

Tell that to George Foreman,and Frank Bruno for that matter
Valuev would be unstoppable by your theory,tell that to teeny small Mr Chagaev
Nuff said indeed
If all it took was being 6'5",Id currently be using my PPV money to polish my belts

[porkypara]

think about it--no1 could--frazier, louis, dempesy , marciano, holmes, foreman,holyfield ,tyson, and yes norton. the 60's ali was the REAL ali-FLABSLAB. no1 1 could have beaten the 60's ali

Totaly agree.CC


Some of the better skilled boxers in history might have given him a fe problems but would not have beaten him.

[ICB]

think about it--no1 could--frazier, louis, dempesy , marciano, holmes, foreman,holyfield ,tyson, and yes norton. the 60's ali was the REAL ali-FLABSLAB. no1 1 could have beaten the 60's ali

This ain't the same *Unbeatable 60s Ali* that got a gift decision against the Mediocre Doug Jones, or the same Ali that almost got KO by Cruiserweight Henry Cooper, and had to have smelling salts which wern't allowed in UK, plus have his glove split to help him survive.

Plenty could of have beaten him.

Prime Riddick Bowe
Prime Larry Holmes
Prime Lennox Lewis
Prime Joe Louis
Etc.

no way --bowe was bigger --but ali was way 2 fast and would win by a ud.
holmes if anything is a poor mans ali--he's an ali wannab--holmes had a better jab--but ali was overall a better fighter and faster ali by ud or sd
lewis=overrated. ali would run circles around him- win by ud

louis -almost lost 2 conn--thers no way in hell he could beat ali. ali would cut louis into shreds--ud or tko

You have already made your mind up and you think Ali is unbeatable no matter what anyone says so its pointless debating.

Saying Holmes is poor mans version of Ali is disrespectful and rude, Holmes used to beat up on your hero in sparring remember Rumble In The Jungle ??

[donnydarkoIRL]

Yes I feel the best Ali we saw was the best Heavy ever...

And although I never met him, I met Ali's Doc (Pacheco) and he said Ali was 6'3'' not 6'2''.

Ive already gone througfh the size differential in several threads but in brief summation:

The primary contingent of 1970's heavyweights were over 6'2'' with the average being 6'3''. There werre some exceptional variations in the form of Frazier and Liston but most were big guys. Weight was pretty comparable too, so the "huge" advantages in modern boxing are nowhere near as huge as they were over 20's 30's 40's 50's and other heavies.

[ICB]

think about it--no1 could--frazier, louis, dempesy , marciano, holmes, foreman,holyfield ,tyson, and yes norton. the 60's ali was the REAL ali-FLABSLAB. no1 1 could have beaten the 60's ali

This ain't the same *Unbeatable 60s Ali* that got a gift decision against the Mediocre Doug Jones, or the same Ali that almost got KO by Cruiserweight Henry Cooper, and had to have smelling salts which wern't allowed in UK, plus have his glove split to help him survive.

Plenty could of have beaten him.

Prime Riddick Bowe
Prime Larry Holmes
Prime Lennox Lewis
Prime Joe Louis

Etc.

Oh do please,I like Holmes,but the very best Holmes there ever was couldnt knock him out even though he allready had Parkinsons
And before you say something foolish about reach or size,Ali was 6'2 and had good reach even by todays standards

Because Holmes carried Ali i thought you already knew this ?? Holmes could of stopped Ali at anytime.

And before you say something foolish about reach or size,Ali was 6'2 and had good reach even by todays standards

I wasn't even going to say that .........

I thought you knew this,for the last 3 rounds Holmes desperatly wanted Alit to either go down,or the ref to stop it
I thought you knew Ali gave Holmes a shiner when Holmes was Ali's sparring partner,thats why an Ali who was allready twiching from Parkinson was arrogant enough to come out of retirement.
He figured if the guy he taught everything he knew,who he could beat at will was heavyweight champ,well maybe one more time
Of course Holmes didnt want to hit Ali anymore,there is no Holmes without Ali
And we arent talking about the twitching from Parkinsons fat Ali are we?
We're talking Ali at the height of his game,he'd have annihilated Holmes,hell the 70's version did it at least once a week at sparring
What on earth do you think that Ali would have done?

I thought you knew this,for the last 3 rounds Holmes desperatly wanted Alit to either go down,or the ref to stop it

Uhh Holmes was pulling his punches on Ali and was pleading with the ref to stop the fight Holmes could of ended it at anytime.

thought you knew Ali gave Holmes a shiner when Holmes was Ali's sparring partner,thats why an Ali who was allready twiching from Parkinson was arrogant enough to come out of retirement.

When Holmes was a mere novice and Ali was in his peak he gave Holmes a shiner, when Holmes grew as a fighter i think your find he used to get the better of Ali in sparring like when they sparred in Rumble In The Jungle.

He figured if the guy he taught everything he knew,who he could beat at will was heavyweight champ,well maybe one more time

Well he was wrong wasn't he ?? because Holmes matured as a fighter.

Of course Holmes didnt want to hit Ali anymore,there is no Holmes without Ali

Ridiculous statement and totally disrespectful, Holmes didn't want to hurt Ali because Ali and Holmes were friends.

We're talking Ali at the height of his game,he'd have annihilated Holmes,hell the 70's version did it at least once a week at sparring
What on earth do you think that Ali would have done?

Now your making up lies, he used to get the better of Holmes when Holmes was a mere novice actually. When Holmes grew as a fighter he got the better of Ali in sparring. But really and truthfully who cares about sparring ?? because if we are going by that logic then Greg Page would beat Mike Tyson because he floored him in sparring.

[ICB]

think about it--no1 could--frazier, louis, dempesy , marciano, holmes, foreman,holyfield ,tyson, and yes norton. the 60's ali was the REAL ali-FLABSLAB. no1 1 could have beaten the 60's ali

This ain't the same *Unbeatable 60s Ali* that got a gift decision against the Mediocre Doug Jones, or the same Ali that almost got KO by Cruiserweight Henry Cooper, and had to have smelling salts which wern't allowed in UK, plus have his glove split to help him survive.

Plenty could of have beaten him.

Prime Riddick Bowe
Prime Larry Holmes
Prime Lennox Lewis
Prime Joe Louis
Etc.

no way --bowe was bigger --but ali was way 2 fast and would win by a ud.
holmes if anything is a poor mans ali--he's an ali wannab--holmes had a better jab--but ali was overall a better fighter and faster ali by ud or sd
lewis=overrated. ali would run circles around him- win by ud

louis -almost lost 2 conn--thers no way in hell he could beat ali. ali would cut louis into shreds--ud or tko

Lennox Lewis over rated? I don't know how you could actually say that and mean it....Lennox was one of the most dominate champions not only in the HW division but to ever grace the sport.....

Lennox had 2 losses....One to McCall where he was a bit full of himself and got caught...Lewis was still a work in progress at the time...

His loss to Rahman was because Lennox was out of shape and had been hanging out in Hollywood filming for 3 weeks before the fight and then flew to South Africa with out even allowing himself enough time to adjust to the time difference.....In the rematch he did not just beat Rahman he made an example of him.....

By time 2002 rolled along Lennox was a complete fighter who pretty much dominated the ring, His opponents and OWNED the HW division...when Lennox was fighting there was no question who the champion was....Not to mention he has one of the best resumes in the history of HW boxing....

Please explain to me how Lewis was overrated?
He fought and beat
Tyson
HolyfieldKlitschko
Mcall
Mercer
Bruno
Botha
Rahman
Ruddock
Mason
Akinwande
Golota
Briggs
Grant
Tua.
Most of those were via KO, and he avenged his only two losses bith by 5th round KO.
Unified the HW division.
Was world champ for the best part of 10 years.
If he is overrated then name me someone who isnt!

I think this speaks for itself as Eagle said....

I would CC you mate but just got you in another thread

overrated mayb wrong choice of words--but his best opposition was well past their primes.but he beat a shell of a tyson and a past his prime holyfield. he was good but boring. i just think a prime tyson woulda ko him and prime holyfield would win by ud. so i think ali would make lewis look amateur and win by a ud. compared to other greats i think
holmes would beat him
foreman
frazier
shavers
norton

lewis is lucky he never had 2 fight ali, but so are, louis ,marciano, dempsey,tyson
[/quote] Lewis would of killed Marciano and Dempsey give me a break, they were 180s pounds and Lewis was 240s you have to be joking ?? it would be Cruiserweight vs massive Heavyweight.

What about your hero Ali ?? he should have at least 9 losses on his record, he should of lost 2 out of 3 to Norton, he got out boxed by Young and got gift decision, he should of been DQ against Henry Cooper, and he should of lost to Shavers but yet again got a gift decision, some people think he should of lost to Doug Jones as well so actually you could make a case for 10 losses on Ali's record.

[ICB]

think about it--no1 could--frazier, louis, dempesy , marciano, holmes, foreman,holyfield ,tyson, and yes norton. the 60's ali was the REAL ali-FLABSLAB. no1 1 could have beaten the 60's ali

This ain't the same *Unbeatable 60s Ali* that got a gift decision against the Mediocre Doug Jones, or the same Ali that almost got KO by Cruiserweight Henry Cooper, and had to have smelling salts which wern't allowed in UK, plus have his glove split to help him survive.

Plenty could of have beaten him.

Prime Riddick Bowe
Prime Larry Holmes
Prime Lennox Lewis
Prime Joe Louis
Etc.

no way --bowe was bigger --but ali was way 2 fast and would win by a ud.
holmes if anything is a poor mans ali--he's an ali wannab--holmes had a better jab--but ali was overall a better fighter and faster ali by ud or sd
lewis=overrated. ali would run circles around him- win by ud

louis -almost lost 2 conn--thers no way in hell he could beat ali. ali would cut louis into shreds--ud or tko

no way --bowe was bigger --but ali was way 2 fast and would win by a ud.

Yea Ali would just win on speed

Not to mention Bowe is bigger, is a better inside fighter than Ali, and is much harder puncher than Ali, plus Bowe has excellent stamina and granite chin, and has an excellent jab, but no your right Ali would win the fight just based on speed and Bowe would not give Ali any trouble at all.

holmes if anything is a poor mans ali--he's an ali wannab--holmes had a better jab--but ali was overall a better fighter and faster ali by ud or sd

I already said this earlier and it is disrespectful comment, considering Holmes made 20 title defense's and is considered one of the greatest Heavyweights of all time, Holmes had better jab, was the better technical boxer than Ali, and he could match Ali in most department's actually.

lewis=overrated. ali would run circles around him- win by ud

Another smart observation, Lewis overrated so Ali wins

Lewis had longer reach plus he is taller, had more power, had the jab to trouble Ali, but no your right again Ali would make Lewis look like amateur even though Lewis has a lot of physical advantages.

louis -almost lost 2 conn--thers no way in hell he could beat ali. ali would cut louis into shreds--ud or tko

And Ali almost lost to Doug Jones so whats your point ??

[Taeth]

I think prime LIston gives him all sorts of problems.

[donnydarkoIRL]

I think prime LIston gives him all sorts of problems.

Young Ali fought a damn good Liston and made him look slow, cumbersome and limited...
Had Liston fought a more mature Ali he would have been beaten worse

[Trainer Monkey]

I think prime LIston gives him all sorts of problems.

Young Ali fought a damn good Liston and made him look slow, cumbersome and limited...
Had Liston fought a more mature Ali he would have been beaten worse

People forget Ali had a beautiful jab,he sniped it out there and made you pursue.And as you pursued hed drop bombs
No other heavyweight has ever moved so close to a welterweight,but had boom boom size and power like Ali did in his prime.Usually even a good and fast heavy weight plods a little bit.
Not Ali in his prime,he just wasnt there to hit.He had an instinctive knowledge of where he was in the ring at all times,an ability to be gone when you came.Heavyweights have a tendency to go low,or go real high. High is too high to catch him,low was to slow to catch him.

[donnydarkoIRL]

CCool Click...In his day Ali was simply breath taking.

[Trainer Monkey]

CCool Click...In his day Ali was simply breath taking.

cc back Donny,he was just one of a kind. He could do what few other fighters will ever get away with,he could play with you.Just goof off,until he was done with you.Imagine it,a heavyweight title fight,where one of the combatants is just playing until he gets bored with youAnd then,its your time to be on the canvas wondering how you got there.The look on his knockouts opponents faces can only be described as,"How did this happen,I thought I was hanging with him"

[donnydarkoIRL]

CCool Click...In his day Ali was simply breath taking.

cc back Donny,he was just one of a kind. He could do what few other fighters will ever get away with,he could play with you.Just goof off,until he was done with you.Imagine it,a heavyweight title fight,where one of the combatants is just playing until he gets bored with youAnd then,its your time to be on the canvas wondering how you got there.The look on his knockouts opponents faces can only be described as,"How did this happen,I thought I was hanging with him"

Yeah the examples of that which most stick with me were Al "Blue" Lewis and as I've already mentione today the Bonavena fight.

Against Al Lewis, Ali wanted to impress, he let Lewis fight even with him and Lewis at his own game couldn't beat Ali. Ali stopped him late as I've said fighting Lewis' fight.

With Bonavena it seemed even. Then the corner mentioned to Ali that it may have been even on the cards. Bang, left hook and Ali became the only man to stop Oscar (Joe Frazier failed to stop him (twice) and foreman failed to stop him)

Ali had it All