The Dynamic Power Of Wing Chun

[Douglas]

Boxing is the mainly adaptable are around.

[hanlon]

This is a pretty old topic, however, I like to bring it back up. Ive been practicing Wing Chun for about 3 month now along with it I took a few classes of karate and boxing, even though Im not that serious of a practioner there are alot of differences in striking styles and concepts I like to bring up.

First the concept. Wing Chun is based on efficient fighting, using the smallest and fastest movement which genereate the most power in order to defend from attacks and attack your opponent. Alot of the Kung Fu usually seen are very flashy using big flashy movements easily dodged if fighting against a actual person. For instance in Aikido there are basic stuff, but when it gets into the more advance things it becomes really doubtful that you will actually be able to use it in combat. Wing Chun is different, all moves made are either to trap, disable, defend or attack your opponent in the simplest way possible, as Yip man said (the son of the master of wing chun) real kungfu is not flashy.

Second, the concepts are backed by physics and experiments. were they have tested the wing chun punch against the boxing regular punch. The boxing punch uses the shoulder muscle which is about 3 times weaker then the tricept. Along with the step in and momentum you get from the boxing punch it does generate more force, the thing is you can get probably 3-5 punches in with the wing chun punch of a good amount of force by the time you get a boxing punch. making the amount of power generated much higher. This is why in some mma leagues the wing chun punch is limited to 2 in a row. And if you research this you will see that most fighting experts would agree that the wing chun punch is the most effective hand to hand combat punch.

Third, fighting concepts. When teaching fighting in things like kickboxing and boxing they teach to back and analyse the situation. Wing chun is different, using training techinques such as sticking hands it teaches muscle memory, like when a basketball player shoots, he doesnt think about it he just shoots his body memorizes how to do it. This makes defending and attacking alot more effective. Of course sticking hands would not actually happen in real life but it does have practical uses when fighting, you just have to use the concept of it in a fight.

Wing chun is a fighting style that is direct and practical. It teaches a no nonsense way of taking down your opponent as quickly and efficiently as possible, no flashy kicks or takedown that you wouldnt actually use in real life. It teaches how to destroy your opponent as quickly as possible. The reason why it is not well represented in MMA leagues is because many practitioners complained that the rules disallowed many of the favorite wing chun techniques.

Wing Tsun vs. Street Fighter (Real Fight!) | Kung Fu Street Fighting | Kung Fu Fighting Video Blog

guy uses wing chun to take down a bigger stronger guy, real fight, in the streets, rare footage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7gFbUc2-d8

human weapon video on wing chun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXg0FFREzcg

guy doing wing chun vs guy doing kickboxing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQTBArJYRVE

guy with good wing chun technique.

dismissing Wing Chun because it is a type of kung fu is stupid, it depends alot on the practitioner yes, but it is a effective combat system as well as a self defence system.

[Heavy D]

Good post, I'll watch the videos a bit later (just in case they go against or address anything I say.)

My biggest beef with what you said though is:

Third, fighting concepts. When teaching fighting in things like kickboxing and boxing they teach to back and analyse the situation. Wing chun is different, using training techinques such as sticking hands it teaches muscle memory, like when a basketball player shoots, he doesnt think about it he just shoots his body memorizes how to do it. This makes defending and attacking alot more effective. Of course sticking hands would not actually happen in real life but it does have practical uses when fighting, you just have to use the concept of it in a fight.

Boxing doesn't teach to sit back and analyse, per se. The analyzing should happen as you fight (notice as he throws a punch, he exposes blah blah, so hit that next time he tries, or when he blocks my jab, his gut is wide open, so hit that next time). It's more about noticing what happens as you fight and adapt to that, don't just sit there with the same game plan.

And throwing hundreds of jabs a day training is a bit more effective for muscle memory, I'd imagine. How many boxers get knocked out and fall flat out, only to raise their hands to the fighting position? Hell, some people even throw punches when completely out. It's because the brain shuts down and the muscles do what they know. You shouldn't THINK about slipping a punch, it should happen because your body knows what to do. If you think about something in boxing, it's already too late to do it.

Also, I thought the excluded Wing Chun strikes in MMA were the throat strikes, small digit manipulations and gouges? Never heard of any league only allowing you to "Wing Chun punch" twice in a row, either.

[Heavy D]

Alright...watched the videos.

The "real" fight is clearly either anything but, or the big dude isn't all there upstairs. No self respecting person would fight like that (hands not just down, but down and out, like he's powering up DBZ style, only to throw the worst punch I've probably ever seen.)

The Wing Chun vs Kickboxer wasn't bad, but that looks like a case of a better fighter against a worse fighter, not anything art vs art related. I could have destroyed that kick boxer :P It did show, however, some practical application of WC, which is nice.

Third video is all demonstration stuff, and I never take any of that seriously. If someone was gonna throw something at me half speed with my prior knowledge, I'll counter with a "boxing" punch in just as effective a manner as he showed.

[hanlon]

Ill try and find the rule against wing chun punches again. I might of lost myself when I was talking about the muscle memory, misses some stuff.

Yes boxing does teach how muscle memory, on how to jab and such. Wing Chun is different in the fact that it teaches what muscle wise how to attack once you defend. Like boxing, you block a shot, and your muscle memory training doesnt go beyond that, exception of maybe mit training. But sticking hands is about getting as close to your opponent as possible so you can always touch him and from that point keep pushing forward, non stop, the use of analysing the situation is obsolete because by feeling you opponent you can defend and attack him. That is why some very well trained Wing Chun masters can do sticking hands blind folded, trained himself to recognize how to attack and defend based on feeling his opponent. Throwing thousands of punches a day is also a thing wing chun people do, I dont know about the kung fu forms though, to be honest I have yet to notice how to use it in an actual situation, my wing chun classes are about 2-3 hours long, at the start 30 minutes of learning new forms and techniques and then the rest is used on sticking hand training among other soft sparring techniques. Also, among the student in the class many (like me) dont mind being hit, we hold back a little as to not hurt each other, but we will throw fast hard punches and elbows in order to train in sticking hands.

Boxing is good, I recognize it as a good fighting style, however, a good wing chun fighter vs a good boxer using only those styles I believe a wing chun guy would win, learning how to deflect the punches with only the littlest movement as well as attacking or trapping in that same instant.

about my comment above, the Wing Chun style is based on defending the centerline, your hands are not at your face, its closer to the mid torso, this is because the wing chun concept believes that the center is the most important place to protect. so you square your body, so both hands can activly attack unlike the boxing ones in front one in the back. With the wing chun stance you can equally protect all parts of your body, as well send punches to all places with equal speed as well as defend,(like the radius of a circle), making it the most effiecient stance for attack + defend. This stance also is better against grapplers, where the boxing stance your hands are up, wing chun your hands are more down, so its easier to get a hand on a guy trying to tackle you maybe drop a elbow (street fight) or push down on the head/shoulders so you move back with his momentum.


Some more technical stuff about wing chun style.

in training in wing chun, one of the key things to do is trap the opponents arms, when attacked, a wing chun fighter is trained to not only parry the arm, put to push or move or grab it, to a place where it cannot be used to defend against the incoming wing chun punch, once this punch is finished the arm reloads the punch by replacing the hand that was trapping the other arm, simple things like using your arms to keep his hands below yours so he cant protect his head, or grabbing and pulling then stepping to one side so he has to turn his body to defend.

another thing is training the joints to do work, it teaches you how to relax to generate more force, for instance a kind a defence where the elbow moves down to parry a attack, all power is used from the shoulder muscle to move the punch down instead of push the hand down, rotating the shoulder muscle instead of pushing down on it. this way you can push and control your opponent who tries to push your hands away with more ease.

[hanlon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAHlKXdGcew

Video of two wing chun guys sparring, shows few of the main defend attack trap techniques

[hanlon]

The first video the smaller guy was definitly wing chun, if you have taken any wing chun classes you can recognize the style immediatly, the squared stance, hands down with a relaxed fist or open hand, the first kick to keep the guy back (a kick that wing chun users are taught), then especially the chain punch, he uses, along with the relentless elbows, after he starts his attack he makes no attempt to back off, then again with the stomping (destroy your opponent). Of course, the big guy definitly isnt a trained fighter (probably picking fights thinking "Im bigger and stronger") but it does show that Wing chun can be a very practical self defence style.

Ya in the second video the wing chun guy does seem to dominate alot, which isn't something that should happen at equal levels of different styles. I beleive it depends on skill level in the art that you are learning, which is why I dont believe that wing chun suks as a striking style and that it can be very effective in the streets and in actual mma matches, just need to wait for a guy that can actually do it properly, since wing chun doesnt have a history of "organized fighting."

Third video was just a bit of the concepts taught by wing chun, it wasnt really meant to show wing chun as this awesome martial arts, but educate on how wing chun people do things. Also, do you see the part where he is doing sticking hands blind folded on the core trainer at his feet? In sticking hands you push against the opponent even though it doesnt really show it at that part, to be able to balance yourself, prevent yourself from being pushed, and push back with ease, is concept that is taught regularly in wing chun. Im a pretty big guy myself, muscular wise stronger and heavier then probably 95% of the student in my class, however, some of the more advance student and my teacher are still able to push me back with ease, control my hands even though I am trying hard to stop them.

[Heavy D]

I know about sticky hands, and I don't think it's a bad exercise at all...I find it fun, in fact. It helps in many ways, from reaction time to your ability to feel and counter your opponent. However, I still don't think it's a substitute for the sparring regime boxing or MMA training can throw at you. I personally tend to learn quicker when the penalty for failure to do so is a bit more serious.

[VictorCharlie]

If there was a traditional martial art that would work well in MMA we would already know about it. Other than some very rudimentary skills the traditional martial arts do not transition to MMA very well.

[hanlon]

No, of course not, it definitly cant replace regular sparring and mma is mixed martial arts, so its like 3,4,5,6 martial arts in one, it definitly has an advantage over a single art such as wing chun. Of course im no professional or hardcore fighter, the most I take is classes, maybe a few spars now and then with friends, however it doesnt replace the fact that wing chun isnt something people should take likely

also vanchild the reason why wing chun isnt really well represented in mma leagues especially the ufc is because unlike muay thai or boxing it doesnt have a history of organized competetive fighting. TKD you use body padding and headgear in fights and not allowed to punch to the face, and alot of them you can't really "fight" like you do in kickboxing and whatever, wing chun is the same. However, as of now there are people starting to use wingchun in serious organized competitions, and there should be a few entering, I think there was one steven something in the euro mma league.

Also in the past wing chun practitioners complained the the MMA rules prevented them from using many of their favorite techniques and as such didnt go because they would have disadvantage against other ones who could go all out with their techniques, however, now that the rules have evolved and wing chun people have adapted their attacking style to the rules they can use wing chun as a striking style in MMA effieciently, of course they will have to learn grappling and ground work, but so do other striking style users.

[donnydarkoIRL]

I don't mean to disrespect the system of fighting - each martial art has its masters that deserve respect, but the defensive system doesn't seem very reliable and plenty of shots get through.

A boxing/Muay Thai textbook punch/elbow could easily get throuygh here.

[hanlon]

Wing chun definitly isnt a defensive art, basically the concept that just about my teacher and every site Ive read is:

Teaches the fastest and most efficient way to destroy your opponent (maybe not destroy exactly)

Wing Chun is a offensive art, you constantly push forward, attacking and defending in the same movement, using small powerful wingchun punches instead of big swings, taking your opponent down as fast as possible and making sure he doesnt get up using whatever is in your arsenal, this is one of the problems, organized mma fights you aren't allowed to use everything in your arsenal, cant downward elbow, stomp on their face, sometimes my teach even say if you want kick him in the nutz, because thats what wing chun is, in street whatever you do goes, so wing chun is basically a organized way to do everything possible to take down your opponent and most of the "masters" trained like this (not exactly eye gouging but pretenting too) so theyve spent alot of their time practicing techniques that are illegal in UFC and such. Wing Chun is basically about move forward and pound your opponent more then they pound you, something that is really possible with the techniques wing chun teach you (not the illegal stuff), and its not techniques liek you see in movies and such like "tiger pounce" or "swan kick" its really just basic stuff, doesnt need a fancy name, there are only 3 "forms" in this kung fu, each one teaches a "basic" block or attack you can use.

[Andre]

Well your talking my talk here Hanlon. I was trained to 7th level in it.

Your a respectful poster who hasnt jumped in here with claims that it will rule etc and thats to be commended.

WC has two different schools mine was through William Cheung (not popular with other Wc masters because he claims to teach the lengthened footwork style with entry techniques so that your safe bridgeing the gap comming i and retreating etc.
It wil pay to keep your open mind and dont buy into the two different stylea of wing chuns ongoing war.

Many of the styles you will notice are quite stagnent in their footwork which holds the figters down to the practice of chi sao nose to nose style of fighting for many years,based in the shil lim tao, I belive some of these styles would teach the bridging the gap techniques later once the practitioners reach the Chum kill form and the final thrusting fingers form also seems to open up the footwork a bit.

If you can get to view any of the advanced forms from William and his brother David Cheungs style you will see many benifits from them.

They claim that when william and bruce Lee were learning from Yip mans father the son and the elders then training in hing kong were jealous of Bruces speed in learning and his natural skills. They asked Yip man senior to ban him from learning wing chun because he was only half cast andit shouldnt be taught to forieners. They said if he didnt expell him they would all walk away. Yip man senoir decided to teach William Cheung all the secret footwork to wing chun andsaid to him to teach Bruce everything he taught him in private .

When you look hard at jeet kune do and look hard at William and Davids more free style of Wing Chun you can see for yourself that some others lack a certain freedom in movment although they are good nose to nose fighters they have trouble with large fast angles.


Have a look around anyway,keep your mouth closed cause leaders still have a giant ego (which they shouldnt at that level) many still fight nasty over who owns what in their style.

It is definatley split and I think the proof is in the technique.

we once got our fellows to match up against a set of boxers noone actually came out the better but it made our crew realise that western boxing stands alone in its own ring with its own rules.
Its a great training proceedure to jump in with them but dont expect to win any way other by points. You'd have a hard job knocking out a boxer with wing chun punches.
Then again out of the ring we dont fight with clenched hands so we outreach them and go for the very softest targets first and knee stomps if clenched etc...

Mma still doenst allow knee breaks ,eye gouges , ball rips etc so I have my doubts it would stay in with those fellows either.
Best bet for me is the Thai styles in mma and the Ju jitsu or ground work styles guys for in the octagon.

there are some thingsfrom WC that work in boxing though but only in some situations,you can see boxers use some of the techniques naturally when in a spot of bother, their reactions take over and their arm automaticallycan go elbow up when they are caught in some situations.(like bon soa or the wing arm) I'd love to see them turn that over on contact and walk through and out the same side .That would be so easy to do at times and would have the commentators sitting in silence for a second or two.

And some use the jab like a feeler to measure distance and when someone tries to come around that feeler on the outside of the arm they naturally face the point of contact with it, so opening up the oppositions centre line and removing one of the oppositions arms out of the equasion at the same time.
There are more too if you watch close.

[Von Milash]

So Andre, I have no doubt that after all these years of study you're a tough fellow to mess with. But here's what gets me... you always hear guys defend wing chun in terms of "well it can't be shown to work in a real situation or in mma because it would kill someone." Specifically, you hear of eye gouges and the like, so my question to you is, do you really need to study all those years to learn how to gouge someone's eyes? I know nothing about WC but I'll BET I can gouge someone's eyes out with the best of them. That's just fighting dirty. In addition to gouging eyes, I can bite, kick to the groin and shins, pull hair, headbutt, bend someone's finger back until it breaks, etc.

BTW, if you can get someone in a leg lock and snap their knee before they tap, perfectly legit in mma.

[VictorCharlie]

[quote=Von Milash;689814 I know nothing about WC but I'll BET I can gouge someone's eyes out with the best of them. That's just fighting dirty. In addition to gouging eyes, I can bite, kick to the groin and shins, pull hair, headbutt, bend someone's finger back until it breaks, etc. [/quote]