Vitali: I'm not ducking anybody!

[The Shadow]

This comes as little surprise. Maybe if Vitali cuts out the use of P.E.D.'s, he won't suffer so many injuries. It only stands to reason that his steroid use has to be a contributing factor to his multiple "training" injuries. Of course, I have no solid, but only anecdotal evidence to support this claim. But it just seems to follow a chain of logic.
There's no way this guy is ducking anyone, per say. I just think he needs to get off the sauce.

It sounds to me that you really have it out for the Klitschko's, otherwise you would keep your completely unfounded ideas that they are using steroids to yourself.You bring it up everytime you post about them, give it a rest.

I don't have it in for the Klitschkos. There can be nothing farther from the truth.
I'm just following a chain of logic that makes perfect sense and explains many of the issues related to both fighters. Do I think that they are the only ones using P.E.D.'s ? Of course not. But they are both the most obvious suspects.

If you come out and make a statement and you have absolutely no evidence to back it up and keep enforcing your belief, then it sounds a little pesemistic to me.To say they are the most obvious suspects because they hold PHd's in sports medicine couldn't be more ludicrous!

No, I just think that I'm analyzing a certain set of criteria and making an informed assessment about it. I'm not being a pessimist, rather, I think I'm just being a realist. There's nothing ludicrous about what I said. Coming from a former Soviet Block State, where the use of P.E.D.'s is well documented isn't grasping at straws. I'm not trying to irritate anyone with this argument. Nor am I just saying it to piss ardent supporters of both brothers off. I think they are both great for the sport. At the same time, I can't allow that to cloud my judgement calls when it comes to certain issues which seem self-evident.

[El Kabong]

I feel bad for whoever wins the Barret-Rahman fight...I knew Vitali would get pissed off after a while. Byebye Hasim

[smashup]

I feel bad for whoever wins the Barret-Rahman fight...I knew Vitali would get p***ed off after a while. Byebye Hasim

Rahman is gonna get HURT against Klitchko

[Hodge_05]

Im looking forward to the rahman klitchsko fight. Vitali should win easily but thats what they said about lewis. Although rahman career is all from him beating lewis. I think vitali will easily ko rahman.

[El Kabong]

No, I just think that I'm analyzing a certain set of criteria and making an informed assessment about it. I'm not being a pessimist, rather, I think I'm just being a realist. There's nothing ludicrous about what I said. Coming from a former Soviet Block State, where the use of P.E.D.'s is well documented isn't grasping at straws. I'm not trying to irritate anyone with this argument. Nor am I just saying it to piss ardent supporters of both brothers off. I think they are both great for the sport. At the same time, I can't allow that to cloud my judgement calls when it comes to certain issues which seem self-evident.

No you ARE being a pessimist. Not ALL Soviets used roids or HGH and especially after the initial collapse of Communism ( fall of the Berlin Wall ) most of the heavy roid or HGH users were around in the mid to late 70's until the late 80's...Wlad has NEVER tested positive for a banned substance and competed in the 1996 Olympics, Vitali tested positive once and wasn't allowed to compete in the Olympics and this was because of an injury and he took medicine much like James Toney.

You ASSUME that just because of where they are from and their education that they juice along with the fact that Vitali has been injury prone and you take those facts and mold them into your little conspiracy theory, now do you know where Jimmy Hoffa is burried

[SevennDeuce]

If you come out and make a statement and you have absolutely no evidence to back it up and keep enforcing your belief, then it sounds a little pesemistic to me.To say they are the most obvious suspects because they hold PHd's in sports medicine couldn't be more ludicrous!

No you ARE being a pessimist. Not ALL Soviets used roids or HGH and especially after the initial collapse of Communism ( fall of the Berlin Wall ) most of the heavy roid or HGH users were around in the mid to late 70's until the late 80's...Wlad has NEVER tested positive for a banned substance and competed in the 1996 Olympics, Vitali tested positive once and wasn't allowed to compete in the Olympics and this was because of an injury and he took medicine much like James Toney.

You ASSUME that just because of where they are from and their education that they juice along with the fact that Vitali has been injury prone and you take those facts and mold them into your little conspiracy theory, now do you know where Jimmy Hoffa is burried

I agree to the fullest with both of you . Either of the Klitschkos using any juice is just idiotic. Just because someone was injured a couple times, youre going to go off on how they use juice?

I'd like to state that any intelligent man, specially with a PhD, knows the bad results of most juice and its side effects...so why would they use it? They wouldn't. Not to mention the Klitschkos are the least likely to ever even think of cheating. They dont need to.

[The Shadow]

No, I just think that I'm analyzing a certain set of criteria and making an informed assessment about it. I'm not being a pessimist, rather, I think I'm just being a realist. There's nothing ludicrous about what I said. Coming from a former Soviet Block State, where the use of P.E.D.'s is well documented isn't grasping at straws. I'm not trying to irritate anyone with this argument. Nor am I just saying it to p*** ardent supporters of both brothers off. I think they are both great for the sport. At the same time, I can't allow that to cloud my judgement calls when it comes to certain issues which seem self-evident.

No you ARE being a pessimist. Not ALL Soviets used roids or HGH and especially after the initial collapse of Communism ( fall of the Berlin Wall ) most of the heavy roid or HGH users were around in the mid to late 70's until the late 80's...Wlad has NEVER tested positive for a banned substance and competed in the 1996 Olympics, Vitali tested positive once and wasn't allowed to compete in the Olympics and this was because of an injury and he took medicine much like James Toney.

You ASSUME that just because of where they are from and their education that they juice along with the fact that Vitali has been injury prone and you take those facts and mold them into your little conspiracy theory, now do you know where Jimmy Hoffa is burried

Lyle, it appears you have problems with reading comprehension. That being said, let me help you out:
I never said that ALL soviets were using rGH or anabolic steroids. However, it is a well known fact that the government sponsored and encouraged the use of P.E.D.'s in a vast variety of sports. The prevalence in the Ukrain has already been documented by Ukranian scientists. Conspiracy theory? You sound like a child that has to come to realization that your marvel comic book hero is only the creative musings of a comic. Why would it be so disturbing to you and other forum members that the Klitschko's use P.E.D.'s?
As I've stated before, there are a variety of tests that would not pick-up some of the commonly used P.E.D.'s. They have to be banned before they can be tested for and detected. New P.E.D.'s are coming out on practically a monthly basis.
Hmmm.....I guess you would argue that Ronnie Coleman is all natural too.
Any "informed" user of P.E.D.'s would acknowledge that the proper use and administration of the drugs don't lead to nefarious long-term side-effects.
That's merely a load of trumped-up B.S. propagated by individuals who have no long-term research data to support that out-dated claim.
The Klitschkos were both products of the Ukranian sports-machine. If you like to live in the dark with your comrades and not face the reality of the situation, then that's simply your problem. I'll always air on the side of realism, thank you very much.
B.T.W.- Hoffa is swimming with da fishes!!

[Wacko3205]

You sound like a child that has to come to realization that your marvel comic book hero is only the creative musings of a comic.

Alright gotdammit! You are really pushing the limits here.

Just which Marvel Comic's hero are you speaking of in such a demeaning way...it better not be Peter Parker or Remy LeBeau...because I'm warning you Shadow...I got love for those two....& you just don't wanna go swimming in water that's deeper than your head.

You got me?!?!?

[The Shadow]

You sound like a child that has to come to realization that your marvel comic book hero is only the creative musings of a comic.

Alright gotdammit! You are really pushing the limits here.

Just which Marvel Comic's hero are you speaking of in such a demeaning way...it better not be Peter Parker or Remy LeBeau...because I'm warning you Shadow...I got love for those two....& you just don't wanna go swimming in water that's deeper than your head.

You got me?!?!?

Hell man. That's only after 4 pints. There's no saying where I'll be after 8!
After 10, I'm no longer responsible for anything I say

[El Kabong]

Yes but you don't have any FACTS to support your theory that "The Klitschko's" 1) use/have used P.E.D s or 2) Use/have used steroids. All you have is hearsay about a country...I'm an American and so is Barry Bonds and he used steroids, does that mean I use steroids Not everything fits together all perfect like other than you being A) An Idiot and B) Irish....ok so I guessed you're Irish....but you're still and idiot, and your posts are facts enough for everyone else to judge

[El Kabong]

....oh and FYI Barry Bonds' 1. Grand Jury testimony 2. who his trainer was and 3. Victor Conte's testimony are enough proof of his abuse of steroids....got anything like that on Wlad or Vitali ........didn't think so


COUNT IT!

[The Shadow]

Yes but you don't have any FACTS to support your theory that "The Klitschko's" 1) use/have used P.E.D s or 2) Use/have used steroids. All you have is hearsay about a country...I'm an American and so is Barry Bonds and he used steroids, does that mean I use steroids Not everything fits together all perfect like other than you being A) An Idiot and B) Irish....ok so I guessed you're Irish....but you're still and idiot, and your posts are facts enough for everyone else to judge

Lyle, thank you for your brilliant and well-thought-out retort to my argument. You are a scholar among scholars, son. With such guielful and substantive debating skills, coupled with your obvious staggering intellect, I'm certain your the gem of your High-School debating team.
The fact that Vitaly used steroids and tested positive for a P.E.D. is harder evidence than the Bonds/Balco nexus. Although I'm quite certain that he used P.E.D.'s to bulk-up and break, what has now become, a record shrouded with
speculation and tons of question marks; your comparison is nothing more than a red herring which exemplifies the ineptitude of your argument.
Some advice for you son:
Get back to bed...it's past your bedtime and your comic books are calling. Hey, who knows, maybe the tooth fairy will pay you a visit.

[El Kabong]

Oh thanks for your compliments, but could you use a little more sarcasm next time, I only noticed a little bit in your last post.

When did Vitali test positive for a P.E.D? I know he tested positive for a banned substance which kept him out of the Olympics but it was because he was hurt just like James Toney. A steroid for recovery not for bulking up but has he tested positive for a P.E.D or a banned substance let alone steroids in his pro career The answer is NO because he has no No Contests on his record because of it so either he's a fucking magician and can wave a wand and turn his piss clean OR he hasn't used anything wrong.

As for Bonds/BALCO well Barry said he was using a cream for arthritis and a clear "flax seed oil" for whatever the hell he was using that for and at BALCO they had some fuss over some STEROID cream and some STEROID clear liquid....also you can look at Barry Bonds as a Pittsburgh Pirate and when he broke the single season home run record and YOU be the judge.

....oh but wait, I forgot you're argument was based on your "certainty" and "a record shrouded with speculation".....and my argument is based on 1) the changing physical size of a person 2) Grand Jury Testimony...which you can't lie during or you've committed Purjury and 3) Numbers....Vitali has ALWAYS KO'd other fighters but Barry Bonds for 14 years of his career had a career low of HRS of 16 and a high of 46 and for the last 4 years of his career has had a low of 45 HRS and a high of 73.....oh but you're SOOOOO right, pat yourself on the back, you make such a great argument you have all these facts.....oh did I say facts I mean circumstantial evidence and not only vs Vitali but vs Wladimir as well....good job, perhaps the Queen of England should be next or maybe you can clear up the JFK Assasination for us was there just Oswald or was there a gunman on the grassy noll

Oh and just an FYI 1) I've been out of high school for a while and 2) I never did debate...and the tooth fairy still owes me money

[The Shadow]

Here you go with your Bonds/Balco thing again : Yes, it's obvious to me and any objective baseball fan that Bonds was DEFINITELY taking something. As you said, there is a vast difference between his size from the days with the Pirates to his current stature. What the hell am I talking about Bonds for anyway? I thought this was supposed to be about Klitschko. Hence:
What kept him out of the Olympics, Lyle? Oh, yeah, that's right, it was an anabolic steroid. Don't give me that crap..."it was he because he was hurt like James Toney". You're merely grasping at straws to find an excuse for him.
Yes, anabolic steroids due aid in the muscle recovery process.....IN A HUGE WAY! That being said, you just can't dismiss the obvious anabolic effects that it brings to the rest of the body. The steroid will act on all the muscles of the individual and not just the damaged one.
Vitaly Klitschko, and Wlad for that matter, have spent the overwhelming majority of their respective careers fighting in EUROPE where there is a much more lenient policy on the testing for P.E.D.'s.....especially in boxing.
Can you tell me HONESTLY that you haven't noticed considerable size differences between the EUROPE boxing Wlad and the guy that fought over here in the states? I'm certainly not in the minority on this one, Lyle. Many of my friends, and even boxing analysts have commented on it. And no, it simply isn't reduced to the ridiculous charge that Max "jackoff" Kellerman leveled against Wlad when he kicked his sweatheart's butt in Deutschland. : Were the size differences staggering? No, of course not. But someone with a PhD in Sports Science is informed enough to know that if he beefs up like Bob Sapp that his
boxing efficiency will be heavily diminished.
The use of anabolic steroids or rGH will NOT give you amazing KO power. Most people recognize that KO prowess is mostly due to the physics of proper leveraging. Both brothers have solid foundations in that area.
That being said, the use of rGH is pretty much undectable after the stoppage of it's administration. I'm fairly certain about this. I've hung around gyms enough to know about many of the tricks-of-the-trade, so to speak.
Both brothers are thinkers, would-be academics if not for their athletic skills.
As I said before, I think that they are great for the sport. However, I would want to be certain, before jumping on any bandwagon, that they are purely
NATURAL athletes. Currently, that assessment is shrouded with alot doubt; at least in my book.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
From Hoffa to Kennedy, man? What the hell is your obsession with conspiracy theories anyway?
I've already torn the "Queen" to shreds on several other non-boxing forums. But that was for purely political and cultural reasons.
And yes, Oswald killed Kennedy.
Sorry to hear about your tooth fairy woes. I'll be certain to shake her down the next time I see her.

[mucho testosterone]

Here you go with your Bonds/Balco thing again : Yes, it's obvious to me and any objective baseball fan that Bonds was DEFINITELY taking something. As you said, there is a vast difference between his size from the days with the Pirates to his current stature. What the hell am I talking about Bonds for anyway? I thought this was supposed to be about Klitschko. Hence:
What kept him out of the Olympics, Lyle? Oh, yeah, that's right, it was an anabolic steroid. Don't give me that crap..."it was he because he was hurt like James Toney". You're merely grasping at straws to find an excuse for him.
Yes, anabolic steroids due aid in the muscle recovery process.....IN A HUGE WAY! That being said, you just can't dismiss the obvious anabolic effects that it brings to the rest of the body. The steroid will act on all the muscles of the individual and not just the damaged one.
Vitaly Klitschko, and Wlad for that matter, have spent the overwhelming majority of their respective careers fighting in EUROPE where there is a much more lenient policy on the testing for P.E.D.'s.....especially in boxing.
Can you tell me HONESTLY that you haven't noticed considerable size differences between the EUROPE boxing Wlad and the guy that fought over here in the states? I'm certainly not in the minority on this one, Lyle. Many of my friends, and even boxing analysts have commented on it. And no, it simply isn't reduced to the ridiculous charge that Max "jackoff" Kellerman leveled against Wlad when he kicked his sweatheart's butt in Deutschland. : Were the size differences staggering? No, of course not. But someone with a PhD in Sports Science is informed enough to know that if he beefs up like Bob Sapp that his
boxing efficiency will be heavily diminished.
The use of anabolic steroids or rGH will NOT give you amazing KO power. Most people recognize that KO prowess is mostly due to the physics of proper leveraging. Both brothers have solid foundations in that area.
That being said, the use of rGH is pretty much undectable after the stoppage of it's administration. I'm fairly certain about this. I've hung around gyms enough to know about many of the tricks-of-the-trade, so to speak.
Both brothers are thinkers, would-be academics if not for their athletic skills.
As I said before, I think that they are great for the sport. However, I would want to be certain, before jumping on any bandwagon, that they are purely
NATURAL athletes. Currently, that assessment is shrouded with alot doubt; at least in my book.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
From Hoffa to Kennedy, man? What the hell is your obsession with conspiracy theories anyway?
I've already torn the "Queen" to shreds on several other non-boxing forums. But that was for purely political and cultural reasons.
And yes, Oswald killed Kennedy.
Sorry to hear about your tooth fairy woes. I'll be certain to shake her down the next time I see her.

Would you be so kind as to tell me exactly what rgh stands for? I know what hgh is but I,ve never heard of this rgh..........and don't say typo because r and h ain't even close on the keyboard!


I know..................... maybe it stands for Russian growth hormone??

I am sure that it doesn't stand for Human growth hormone cause thats HGH.

You almost had me convinced.

JK Jk...........just giving you a hard time..............but seriously though you guys are fighting over pure speculation here.....there havebeen no new developments regarding either Klitschko or steroids.

Furthermore, saying that an athlete is using performance enhancing drugs because he is from Russia is like saying that I am a polesmoker because I live in the San Francisco Bay Area. While yes, it does increase the likelihood of either scenario, it doesn't necessarily make it so.

Just food for thought.