I spent five painstaking months coming up with this P4P list. I'm Ouma the Daddy.

[OumaFan]

Baldomir was the Welterweight champion of the world!

David Diaz was a 135 pound world champion!

Junior Witter had a belt, Alex Bunema had a belt, Carl Froch is a world champion, I could go on.

At the risk of continuing this why do you feel Caballero is a more deserving P4P entry than Calderon?

[OumaFan]

I don't even have Caballero at borderline BTW. The Ring having him at 8 mystifies me.

Hasn't he made like 10 title defenses ? i think he is a bit underrated by the fans. And i for certain think he's higher than Nonito Donaire, and Ivan Calderon who has had 3 close unimpressive technical decisions in a row, just not impressive at all lately IMO.

Caballero was lucky to get the win against Mathebula two fights ago. I didn't see his other recent fight but he's also been very unimpressive at times, there and against Lacierva notably. Calderon's also had more title defenses than Caballero if you want to go down that road but honestly that doesn't do all that much for me.

Partially I didn't think that highly of Molitor so I don't know what to think of Caballero's wins, they're not that great. Then I think Calderon is just better, obviously that's subjective but I think he's clearly better.

[Kev]

Baldomir was the Welterweight champion of the world!

David Diaz was a 135 pound world champion!

Junior Witter had a belt, Alex Bunema had a belt, Carl Froch is a world champion, I could go on.

At the risk of continuing this why do you feel Caballero is a more deserving P4P entry than Calderon?

I've never questioned Calderons right to be on the list only that he doesnt deserve to be abover Paul Williams on recent performances.

Baldomir, Diaz, Witter and Bunema have indeed held portions of the world tite but beating them wouldn't make anybody p4p (except Martinez in the eyes of Kellerman).

THAT'S the difference. If Baldomir was a 110 lber and he was just a name you'd give Calderon or Cazares big props for beating him whereas a win over him from Floyd or Williams would be met only with criticism for taking the fight in the first place.

The high profile weight classes are much more well known to us so we feel we can discredit any guy's wins.

But when Nonito Donaire or Huge Cazaires line up against some part timer with a 6-3 record and get taken the distance it's because the 6-3 guy was actually world class.

It's fucking retarded.

[Kev]

I don't even have Caballero at borderline BTW. The Ring having him at 8 mystifies me.

Hasn't he made like 10 title defenses ? i think he is a bit underrated by the fans. And i for certain think he's higher than Nonito Donaire, and Ivan Calderon who has had 3 close unimpressive technical decisions in a row, just not impressive at all lately IMO.

Caballero was lucky to get the win against Mathebula two fights ago. I didn't see his other recent fight but he's also been very unimpressive at times, there and against Lacierva notably. Calderon's also had more title defenses than Caballero if you want to go down that road but honestly that doesn't do all that much for me.

Partially I didn't think that highly of Molitor so I don't know what to think of Caballero's wins, they're not that great. Then I think Calderon is just better, obviously that's subjective but I think he's clearly better.

It's entirely subjective. Calderon has a better defence for sure but he has no power, no physical presence and doesn't have any great offensive arsenal at all.

In a p4p matchup faced with a strong, taller fighter like Cabellero would he be able to win with the limited firepower he has?

I really don't know, certainlyl I'm not confident to say he's clearly better, especially seeing as he had to rematch Cazares because some thought he lost that fight ( I didn't).

Cabellero is clearly better than Cazares imo, wins over Ponce De Leon and Molitor prove his class, no draws with 11-1 guys in the last few years.

[OumaFan]

That's great but I don't have Calderon P4P because of Cazares and I've never called any 6-3 fighter world class. Its a body of work, he has no great wins IMO, but he does have a lot of solid to good ones and there's also some subjectivity here. Anyway I've already said I don't love his resume but then again I'm not sure Williams has any great wins either.

LOL at all of this because you disagree with one guy being 8 and one guy being 9.

Calderon has a place in the bottom half IMO, I don't even feel that strongly about any of the placements after 1 and 2. Do you feel that strongly about Cotto being five and Mosley 6 or vice versa? I don't. The only thing that I felt strongly about from 7-10 was putting Dawson at the top of the list as his resume is clearly the best of those guys.

[OumaFan]

Well he did get KO'd by an 18-5 guy.

Of course there's some subjectivity. There should be in every list. I think Calderon would beat Caballero (or more so that he's just better in general) but I don't see any point in even discussing that. If you had made up a P4P list and had Paul Williams 8 and Calderon 9 (or fuck even if you had left Calderon off) I wouldn't have cared or said a word. I just disagree with your generalizations about lower weight fighters.

[Kev]

Ok I do agree with your points there. I'm not really sure why I'm arguing as it wasn't even you who claimed Williams wasn't p4p it was somebody else

What can I say, it's just I'm a born internet warrior and once set off there is no stopping me, hence the pleas for self bans.

Im going to get some food and change my nappy now, then calm down with some nice transexual porn

[OumaFan]

I thought if anything leaving Izzy and Rafa off would be the point of contention. I literally spent 10 seconds deciding who was 8, 9, and 10. In fact I could easily change my mind and put Paul at 8 (as he's probably reaching his prime now while Calderon is on the downward slope) but I'll never do it now, noooo I couldn't bear giving off any impression that you had changed my mind

[amat]

Bilbo Cazares is better than the old Verno Phillips that Williams fought. I'm a bit of a Verno fan but I don't even find that to be an arguable point.

-Fact.

Wtf Bilbo come on Hugo Cazares was a billion times more of a threat to Calderon then Verno Phillips ever was to Paul Williams. You make that point, state it as fact, then base a bunch of shit off that. It's wrong.

I love Winky but even the Winky win probably didn't mean much. Come on Bilbo this is just sad. There's a reason I don't speak on the lower weights as much, it's harder for me to follow completely so I don't want to make myself out to be an ass talking about fighters who I've only seen in limited action or not at all. I see you don't have that problem.

[OumaFan]

To be fair I don't know nearly as much about the lighter weights as I use to like three or so years ago when I was a big boxing fan.

[amat]

To be fair I don't know nearly as much about the lighter weights as I use to like three or so years ago when I was a big boxing fan.

It's to fucken hard because there is such an international pool, I've really just been following everything out of Japan and hope they just dominate the lower weights.

[OumaFan]

I used to watch so much boxing it was absurd. Now meh I'm sure there are a fair amount of people on here that know more about them than I do. One thing I've decided is Galaxy knows everything

[amat]

I used to watch so much boxing it was absurd. Now meh I'm sure there are a fair amount of people on here that know more about them than I do. One thing I've decided is Galaxy knows everything

I can't watch as much either but I'm with you I used to just waste away watching 3-4 fights a night sometimes. Sleep or watch the Larry Mosley-Golden Johnson fight? That's what it came down to one night at like 2 AM and I just decided I should probably chill on all the boxing.

[Violent Demise]

Its the first one I've made in like half a decade. The first two are interchangeable really and then its a crap shoot. As said in another thread some is based on achievements, some on perceived ability, some on personal bias

1)Manny Pacquaio
2)Floyd Mayweather
3)Juan Manuel Marquez
4)Bernard Hopkins
5)Miguel Cotto
6)Shane Mosley
7)Chad Dawson
Ivan Calderon
9)Paul Williams
10)Arthur Abraham

Just missed the cut
Izzy Vazquez
Rafa Marquez-see above, they're both old, not sure what they have left and inactive, both looked bad last time out, if they come back looking good they could both be back in.
Hozumi Hasegawa
Nonito Donaire
Mikkel Kessler
Kelly Pavlik
Fernando Montiel
Vic Darchinyan

and some other guys, tired of mentioning them

LOL no way you're a part of my list

Wlad
Vitali
Froch

It may be bad but its pretty definitive

Sucks you can't get those 5 minutes back.

And since when is scoring a 3rd round knock out considered looking bad?

[amat]

You're right VD I thought they looked great, just look at the results! Other fights where fighters looked great, Amir Khan when he stopped Michael Gomez in 5! What a great result that was, TKO5. Or Ricky Hatton when he won almost every round versus Juan Lazcano. Great result there for Rick I don't know how anyone could see any wrong in their performances.