Vitali tribute

[Mr140]

Well i not a huge fan of theirs but lets be honest here the Brown Bomber and Holmes had shit comp to.

[El Kabong]

Well i not a huge fan of theirs but lets be honest here the Brown Bomber and Holmes had shit comp to.

As did Marciano and Tyson to be completely honest. Tyson wasn't "challenged" by anyone until the 1990's which was AFTER his prime and hell I doubt he beats any of those guys he lost to in his prime anyway and look at the guys he didn't fight there are some very good names on there that could have beaten him.

[Master]

Well i not a huge fan of theirs but lets be honest here the Brown Bomber and Holmes had shit comp to.

As did Marciano and Tyson to be completely honest. Tyson wasn't "challenged" by anyone until the 1990's which was AFTER his prime and hell I doubt he beats any of those guys he lost to in his prime anyway and look at the guys he didn't fight there are some very good names on there that could have beaten him.

Tyson fought all comers during his prime years, there was no one he avoided.

[El Kabong]

Well i not a huge fan of theirs but lets be honest here the Brown Bomber and Holmes had shit comp to.

As did Marciano and Tyson to be completely honest. Tyson wasn't "challenged" by anyone until the 1990's which was AFTER his prime and hell I doubt he beats any of those guys he lost to in his prime anyway and look at the guys he didn't fight there are some very good names on there that could have beaten him.

Tyson fought all comers during his prime years, there was no one he avoided.

During his prime years there was no one to avoid....Holyfield, Lewis, et al came around much later and even then Tyson didn't seek them out until he NEEDED the money from those fights.

The guys I'm talking about Tyson avoiding are: Foreman, Mercer, Tua, etc. not saying that in those cases fights were there to be made and Tyson ducked them (that's the case with Foreman though) but that Tyson for one reason or another chose not to fight them or vice versa....I'm just saying all challenges weren't actively sought out.

[TitoFan]

Wlad hasn't been truly tested. I mean rea-a-a-a-a-ally tested. He suffered two early KO's, where he developed a rap for a glass chin, and after that..... nothing. Boxers come in pawing, hiding.... just looking not to get KTFO'ed. As I've said before, something most great fighters have in common is the EPIC fight. Ali has his Frazier. Leonard had his Hearns. Who does Wlad have? Who has pushed Wlad to the limit? Where he's had to show resourcefulness and dig down a little deep? What are Wlad's memorable fights?

I'm sorry... I truly respect your opinion. But when you say their competition wasn't "so horrible".... that's where we kinda disagree. Some have come in with a bit of fanfare, then have truly disappointed. It's maddening. For the Klitschko's sake, I hope someone comes along soon that will take the brothers to a whole new level. THEN they can take their place among history's HW top 10 p4p.

OK Point #1 When Wlad was considered "done" after shock losses to long time underacheivers Corrie Sanders and Lamon Brewsterand when he even had trouble and was knocked down vs DaVaryl Williamson what did he do? He went after the most dangerous heavyweight in the division at the time. Sam Peter didn't come in pawing and hiding he came after Wlad those are FACTS. What slowed Sam Peter down was Wlad's power and when Wlad was hurt he did the right thing and tied up. But You cannot tell me Wlad didn't test himself with the best opponent out there or that he wasn't tested during that fight.

Point #2 After the Corrie Sanders and (more importantly the) Lamon Brewster fights people said "The best way to beat Wlad is to pour the pressure on him" and it was only after the first Sam Peter fight and the Chris Byrd rematch when fighters started to second guess that idea as those two were beaten senseless.

Point #3 Wlad has earned a reputation for being "boring" because he held vs Sam Peter (which won him the fight and helped him regain much needed confidence), he held vs Sultan Ibragimov (the first dangerous southpaw he fought since Sanders and really Sultan initiated a lot of those clenches and was only trying to survive), and because he didn't step on the gas vs Chagaev to end the fight sooner. I've been telling anyone that will listen that Manny Steward had the same issues with Lennox Lewis that he now has with Wladimir and it's mainly a problem of perception. Right now Manny and Wlad know they are head and shoulders above the rest of the division and although Sam Peter took a massive beating in the rematch you (well I saw) saw Wlad throw power punches sooner, throw combinations, and go for a knockout. I think Wlad will continue this and will become an exciting fighter though his competition will not give a solid effort vs him and that my friend is the real trouble.

Among the opponents you mentioned, I rate Sam Peter as the biggest feather in Klitschko's cap. He was a feared puncher, and came into the fight with a lot of expectations. I'd say that was the high point of Wlad's resume. And much credit to Wlad with how he fought and defeated Peter. But.... Chris Byrd? Give me a break. I know Byrd has his fans on this forum, but IMO he should have never been a HW in the first place. What a joke the guy was. And the Wlad fight with Sultan has got to be one of the most ridiculously boring fights in the history of boxing. They should've handed out refunds to the public on their way out.

But let's go back to Peter. How is history going to rate Sam Peter? Is he HOF material? Most certainly NOT. Peter has proven to be a very forgettable fighter, for whatever reason. Sure, none of this is Klitschko's fault... I've always been clear about that. And Wlad's skills and power (and size) would have served him well in any era of boxing

Problem is... and not necessarily fair, mind you... that in order to go down in history as an ATG, you're normally expected to have beaten other ATG's, or at least future HOF fighters. You have to have been involved in epic fights. Look at Ali... not necessarily the greatest fighter to lace up a pair of gloves... but look at some of the scalps on his resume: Frazier, Foreman, Liston. Come to think of it... I think there's been a gradual decline in the general state of the HW division since those days. Which of course is one of the reasons why boxing has lost some of its popularity... because like or not, most casual fans like to see the big boys go at it. But that's another topic.

Point is, Wlad and Vitali will probably never get their just due when all is said and done, and it's not their own doing. It's just the state of the division these days.

[generalbulldog]

I don't think Wlad will be an ATG HW champ when it's all said and done. When you get sparked out by journeyman bums like Brewster and Sanders and then go on to have victories over Chagaev and Peter that doesn't scream atg material to me.


And speaking of ALi, I remeber Lyle saying Ali was another Chris Byrd so Wlad beats him easily if they actually fought. hahahaha

[El Kabong]

Among the opponents you mentioned, I rate Sam Peter as the biggest feather in Klitschko's cap. He was a feared puncher, and came into the fight with a lot of expectations. I'd say that was the high point of Wlad's resume. And much credit to Wlad with how he fought and defeated Peter. But.... Chris Byrd? Give me a break. I know Byrd has his fans on this forum, but IMO he should have never been a HW in the first place. What a joke the guy was. And the Wlad fight with Sultan has got to be one of the most ridiculously boring fights in the history of boxing. They should've handed out refunds to the public on their way out.

But let's go back to Peter. How is history going to rate Sam Peter? Is he HOF material? Most certainly NOT. Peter has proven to be a very forgettable fighter, for whatever reason. Sure, none of this is Klitschko's fault... I've always been clear about that. And Wlad's skills and power (and size) would have served him well in any era of boxing

Problem is... and not necessarily fair, mind you... that in order to go down in history as an ATG, you're normally expected to have beaten other ATG's, or at least future HOF fighters. You have to have been involved in epic fights. Look at Ali... not necessarily the greatest fighter to lace up a pair of gloves... but look at some of the scalps on his resume: Frazier, Foreman, Liston. Come to think of it... I think there's been a gradual decline in the general state of the HW division since those days. Which of course is one of the reasons why boxing has lost some of its popularity... because like or not, most casual fans like to see the big boys go at it. But that's another topic.

Point is, Wlad and Vitali will probably never get their just due when all is said and done, and it's not their own doing. It's just the state of the division these days.

Chris Byrd in the rematch was (not that it matters) the longest reigning title holder at the time and Wladimir (although he had just beaten Sam Peter) was still not viewed as exactly sturdy enough to regain what people figured he would become. This being the case, Byrd took the strategy of his cousin Lamon Brewster and figured he would pressure Wlad and Wlad would crack like he did vs Brewster. And looking back it seemed like the perfect idea Byrd had fast hands, solid defense (best in the division really), a granite chin, and great stamina. When it came time to test out this theory Wlad responded in such a fashion that shook the notion that he could be bullied by anyone and that he was "soft". So it's not THAT he beat Chris Byrd it was HOW he beat Chris Byrd that made his future opponents respect him so much. So basically they switched from the Lamon Brewster blue print to the Corrie Sanders blue print ie "I'll just sit back and wait for a mistake to counter"....that hasn't worked well either.

As for rating Sam Peter is he any better or worse than Frank Bruno, Donovan Ruddock, Tommy Morrison, Shannon Briggs....a guy who seemed to have "it" but came up well short in a few fights and lost a couple fights he shouldn't have? I don't see much of a difference.

I think the Jameel McCline fight was a pretty good one as well both fighters at the peak of their careers (for the time...Wlad has since improved even more) but it was a good solid fight and a big win for Wlad at that point in his career.

Ali vs Wladimir would be something to see...usually Ali (like Wlad) held all the advantages, always in top shape, always faster, taller, bigger reach etc. But big guys in Ali's day didn't "box" they were sluggers and power punchers, they weren't well rounded they usually did 1 thing and did it extremely well, Wlad is a bit more well rounded than Frazier or the George Foreman of the 1970's.....just a thought to consider before just brushing off the very idea of a hypothetical fight between the two being "ridiculous"