Exemplary

[JazMerkin]

To be fair to the Ukranians, who, outside of each other, have they not fought who they should have?

It's not really a position that I ascribe to, I think that as fans we have to accept that certain fights just don't happen. Still I've (laughably imo) heard that the Klitschkos didn't want to fight Valuev, Tua, Holyfield, a 'prime Shannon Briggs' (whatever the fuck that is). As I said I think it's bollocks.

Where there could be a question is on 'risky opponents'. Lewis aside, has either bro ever fought a guy they weren't favoured to beat? Probably, but can't think of any off the top of my head. They'd meet my requirements.

[marbleheadmaui]

To be fair to the Ukranians, who, outside of each other, have they not fought who they should have?

It's not really a position that I ascribe to, I think that as fans we have to accept that certain fights just don't happen. Still I've (laughably imo) heard that the Klitschkos didn't want to fight Valuev, Tua, Holyfield, a 'prime Shannon Briggs' (whatever the fuck that is). As I said I think it's bollocks.

Where there could be a question is on 'risky opponents'. Lewis aside, has either bro ever fought a guy they weren't favoured to beat? Probably, but can't think of any off the top of my head. They'd meet my requirements.

You're rolling tonight. Another fine post.

[0james0]

Yeah I take back Mclosckey.

Wasn't really thinking, got caught up more in the "train hard take it serious" trait than the others.

Stand by Rogan though, that guy was built to be a fighter, lack of skills yes, the Sexton 2 night was odd, he didn't seem his normal self at all.

[Kev]

You cannot argue that a Klitshcko doesn't tick off all of those traits. But they'll go down as greats.

I'm guessing you mean boxers not as great or legendary. Someone like Paul Mckloskey, the guy will always turn up for a fight and train everything he can. The adaptability tends to go hand in hand with most greats.

I still class the brilliantly one dimensional fighters as proper boxers. Love them actually.

Maidana, Katsidis, Rogan. All true boxers through and through. Head down and swinging, take pretty much anything you throw at them!

You could certainly make an argument that the Klitschkos don't take risky fights, but I'd agree they probably meet the criteria, although I personally don't consider them truly great in the way guys like Pac, Floyd & B-Hop are.
.

huh? Who have they ever avoided apart from each other? Ok Vitali was inactive for a few years but they have both fought and beat the best opposition available to them. How could they have taken any riskier fights?

Also, I object to the veneration of Ivan Calderon as if he did something amazing in ebating Hugo Cazares and then getting battered by Segura.

He was a decent little fighter in a weight class hopelessly devoid of talent. Segura was hardly a big man either. 108 lbs, that's like the weight of an average 5 year old American child.

Plus Calderon started out his career at 107 so it's not even true he climbed up trhough divisions.

When you have Manny who went from 104 to 154 and smashed everybody up and Ivan gets battered by a man who even I look physically imposing against I just donn't see how he can be considered just short of great.

If Calderon had been 147lbs he would just be another Malignaggi, a decent fighter, maybe capable of winning a belt, but not of challenging the top guys in the weight class.

He fought in a division with about 300 pro fighters, versus the 1000/1500 in most of the others. None of them are fulltime professionals, in football terms it's like being top of the Isthmian League and then struggling when they got promoted to the Conference South.

Sure he was skilfull and elusive, but he also had a crippling lack of power and phsyical strength that would have been considered far more of a weakness had he not operated in such a weak talent pool.

Hey, my view may not be popular but's it the truth.

[JazMerkin]

You could certainly make an argument that the Klitschkos don't take risky fights, but I'd agree they probably meet the criteria, although I personally don't consider them truly great in the way guys like Pac, Floyd & B-Hop are.
.

huh? Who have they ever avoided apart from each other? Ok Vitali was inactive for a few years but they have both fought and beat the best opposition available to them. How could they have taken any riskier fights?

Also, I object to the veneration of Ivan Calderon as if he did something amazing in ebating Hugo Cazares and then getting battered by Segura.

He was a decent little fighter in a weight class hopelessly devoid of talent. Segura was hardly a big man either. 108 lbs, that's like the weight of an average 5 year old American child.

Plus Calderon started out his career at 107 so it's not even true he climbed up trhough divisions.

When you have Manny who went from 104 to 154 and smashed everybody up and Ivan gets battered by a man who even I look physically imposing against I just donn't see how he can be considered just short of great.

If Calderon had been 147lbs he would just be another Malignaggi, a decent fighter, maybe capable of winning a belt, but not of challenging the top guys in the weight class.

He fought in a division with about 300 pro fighters, versus the 1000/1500 in most of the others. None of them are fulltime professionals, in football terms it's like being top of the Isthmian League and then struggling when they got promoted to the Conference South.

Sure he was skilfull and elusive, but he also had a crippling lack of power and phsyical strength that would have been considered far more of a weakness had he not operated in such a weak talent pool.

Hey, my view may not be popular but's it the truth.

Read my above post about the Klitschkos. It's not something I believe, just an argument I've heard given.

On Calderon you are clearly off on one. No one in this thread is saying he's the greatest fighter of all time & if you read my post I argued he fell just short of being great. However, what he showed is what you want to see a fighter doing. Always turning up to fight in shape, always taking on the best opposition, showed heart in the ring & was an intelligent fighter. Him not having power is besides the point, it only re-emphasises how impressive it was that the could beat bigger men through skill.

Segura walks around at 135lbs, Calderon at about 115lbs. That is quite a difference at that weight. Quoting numbers of available fighters tells you nothing about how good he would have done with a wider pool. It's like saying that Manny Pacquiao & Floyd Mayweather would have been contenders in the 60s & 70s because there were more welterweights back then.

Many boxers are not full-time pros, shockingly unless you're at the very top, it's not the best paying job in the world. The very best little guys can be just as good as any other fighter. Trying to say you look physically imposing is laughable. I've seen a light-flyweight amateur knock a 6'2 guy who looked about 200lbs unconscious in a nightclub. Ivan Calderon might not be a huge puncher in pro boxing, but he'd probably beat most posters on here unconscious.

[Kev]

You could certainly make an argument that the Klitschkos don't take risky fights, but I'd agree they probably meet the criteria, although I personally don't consider them truly great in the way guys like Pac, Floyd & B-Hop are.
.

huh? Who have they ever avoided apart from each other? Ok Vitali was inactive for a few years but they have both fought and beat the best opposition available to them. How could they have taken any riskier fights?

Also, I object to the veneration of Ivan Calderon as if he did something amazing in ebating Hugo Cazares and then getting battered by Segura.

He was a decent little fighter in a weight class hopelessly devoid of talent. Segura was hardly a big man either. 108 lbs, that's like the weight of an average 5 year old American child.

Plus Calderon started out his career at 107 so it's not even true he climbed up trhough divisions.

When you have Manny who went from 104 to 154 and smashed everybody up and Ivan gets battered by a man who even I look physically imposing against I just donn't see how he can be considered just short of great.

If Calderon had been 147lbs he would just be another Malignaggi, a decent fighter, maybe capable of winning a belt, but not of challenging the top guys in the weight class.

He fought in a division with about 300 pro fighters, versus the 1000/1500 in most of the others. None of them are fulltime professionals, in football terms it's like being top of the Isthmian League and then struggling when they got promoted to the Conference South.

Sure he was skilfull and elusive, but he also had a crippling lack of power and phsyical strength that would have been considered far more of a weakness had he not operated in such a weak talent pool.

Hey, my view may not be popular but's it the truth.

Read my above post about the Klitschkos. It's not something I believe, just an argument I've heard given.

On Calderon you are clearly off on one. No one in this thread is saying he's the greatest fighter of all time & if you read my post I argued he fell just short of being great. However, what he showed is what you want to see a fighter doing. Always turning up to fight in shape, always taking on the best opposition, showed heart in the ring & was an intelligent fighter. Him not having power is besides the point, it only re-emphasises how impressive it was that the could beat bigger men through skill.

Segura walks around at 135lbs, Calderon at about 115lbs. That is quite a difference at that weight. Quoting numbers of available fighters tells you nothing about how good he would have done with a wider pool. It's like saying that Manny Pacquiao & Floyd Mayweather would have been contenders in the 60s & 70s because there were more welterweights back then.

Many boxers are not full-time pros, shockingly unless you're at the very top, it's not the best paying job in the world. The very best little guys can be just as good as any other fighter. Trying to say you look physically imposing is laughable. I've seen a light-flyweight amateur knock a 6'2 guy who looked about 200lbs unconscious in a nightclub. Ivan Calderon might not be a huge puncher in pro boxing,

I don't really have anything decent to come back with so I'll just resort to childish insults.

Fuck off Jaz you prick.

[JazMerkin]

You could certainly make an argument that the Klitschkos don't take risky fights, but I'd agree they probably meet the criteria, although I personally don't consider them truly great in the way guys like Pac, Floyd & B-Hop are.
.

huh? Who have they ever avoided apart from each other? Ok Vitali was inactive for a few years but they have both fought and beat the best opposition available to them. How could they have taken any riskier fights?

Also, I object to the veneration of Ivan Calderon as if he did something amazing in ebating Hugo Cazares and then getting battered by Segura.

He was a decent little fighter in a weight class hopelessly devoid of talent. Segura was hardly a big man either. 108 lbs, that's like the weight of an average 5 year old American child.

Plus Calderon started out his career at 107 so it's not even true he climbed up trhough divisions.

When you have Manny who went from 104 to 154 and smashed everybody up and Ivan gets battered by a man who even I look physically imposing against I just donn't see how he can be considered just short of great.

If Calderon had been 147lbs he would just be another Malignaggi, a decent fighter, maybe capable of winning a belt, but not of challenging the top guys in the weight class.

He fought in a division with about 300 pro fighters, versus the 1000/1500 in most of the others. None of them are fulltime professionals, in football terms it's like being top of the Isthmian League and then struggling when they got promoted to the Conference South.

Sure he was skilfull and elusive, but he also had a crippling lack of power and phsyical strength that would have been considered far more of a weakness had he not operated in such a weak talent pool.

Hey, my view may not be popular but's it the truth.

Read my above post about the Klitschkos. It's not something I believe, just an argument I've heard given.

On Calderon you are clearly off on one. No one in this thread is saying he's the greatest fighter of all time & if you read my post I argued he fell just short of being great. However, what he showed is what you want to see a fighter doing. Always turning up to fight in shape, always taking on the best opposition, showed heart in the ring & was an intelligent fighter. Him not having power is besides the point, it only re-emphasises how impressive it was that the could beat bigger men through skill.

Segura walks around at 135lbs, Calderon at about 115lbs. That is quite a difference at that weight. Quoting numbers of available fighters tells you nothing about how good he would have done with a wider pool. It's like saying that Manny Pacquiao & Floyd Mayweather would have been contenders in the 60s & 70s because there were more welterweights back then.

Many boxers are not full-time pros, shockingly unless you're at the very top, it's not the best paying job in the world. The very best little guys can be just as good as any other fighter. Trying to say you look physically imposing is laughable. I've seen a light-flyweight amateur knock a 6'2 guy who looked about 200lbs unconscious in a nightclub. Ivan Calderon might not be a huge puncher in pro boxing,

I don't really have anything decent to come back with so I'll just resort to childish insults.

Fuck off Jaz you prick.

It's been too long since we were on opposing sides of an argument Bilbo. You little bitch.


This is what veteran posting is all about.

[johnsebastianmiran]

Mickey Ward, was not what you call the greatest but he was adaptable and hardly ever in a dull fight. Arturo Gatti would keep us on the edge of our seats. Ivan Robinson had some good moves and all these guys fought each other too. Those fights were all entertaining.,

[X]

here's a controversial one .......

Nikolai Valuev was never a great fighter, he got some opportunities because he was marketed as a bit of a freak show, he may have been given some questionable decisions - but he extraxted everything he could from his limited talent, he was always in as good shape as he could be, he studied the sport, you could see he listened to his trainers, he showed bravery in the ring (as did primo carnera!), he made the most of every opportunity he was ever given.

People who annoy me are those that piss God given talent up the wall and waste their potential (George Best, Scott Harrison etc) I am not a BHOp fan, but that man has drawn every ounce of his talent and maximised it through hard work and professionalism. Respect.