The term "PC" should be renamed

[TitoFan]

If you're comparing the Nazi flag to the country flags of both Japan and the U.S....... maybe we really shouldn't be having this conversation.

That is the problem with the PC crowd. They just want to shut down the discussion. What distinguished imperial Japan from Nazi Germany? I see a lot of obvious similarities. Can you honestly not see them? They were war time allies occupying nations and carrying out genocide. Yet one flag is evil and the other is just dandy.

Last time I checked, Japan was still a country and as such has its own flag. Germany ALSO has its own country flag, and it looks nothing like the Nazi flag. Keep reaching, though.

[Gandalf]

If you're comparing the Nazi flag to the country flags of both Japan and the U.S....... maybe we really shouldn't be having this conversation.

That is the problem with the PC crowd. They just want to shut down the discussion. What distinguished imperial Japan from Nazi Germany? I see a lot of obvious similarities. Can you honestly not see them? They were war time allies occupying nations and carrying out genocide. Yet one flag is evil and the other is just dandy.

Last time I checked, Japan was still a country and as such has its own flag. Germany ALSO has its own country flag, and it looks nothing like the Nazi flag. Keep reaching, though.

You say one cannot, for example, compare the Japanese flag and the Nazi flag. I simply question why not and you seem unable or unwilling to answer that question. The PC response is to close down debate by saying, 'we should never talk about it, you are being extreme'. If you think as I do that a flag is just a flag, then surely all flags exist equally as flags. If you think flags have greater meaning as you seem to do, then I am simply asking you what distinguishes the flag of Imperial Japan and that of Nazi era Germany. If the Nazi flag is so bad based on the regime of Nazi Germany, then how can you deflect the flag of Japan when Japan was an equally hideous regime occupying nations, stealing resources, and carrying out genocide? I think it is a valid observation and yet the flag of Japan isn't being banned or frowned upon.

[TitoFan]

If you're comparing the Nazi flag to the country flags of both Japan and the U.S....... maybe we really shouldn't be having this conversation.

That is the problem with the PC crowd. They just want to shut down the discussion. What distinguished imperial Japan from Nazi Germany? I see a lot of obvious similarities. Can you honestly not see them? They were war time allies occupying nations and carrying out genocide. Yet one flag is evil and the other is just dandy.

Last time I checked, Japan was still a country and as such has its own flag. Germany ALSO has its own country flag, and it looks nothing like the Nazi flag. Keep reaching, though.

You say one cannot, for example, compare the Japanese flag and the Nazi flag. I simply question why not and you seem unable or unwilling to answer that question. The PC response is to close down debate by saying, 'we should never talk about it, you are being extreme'. If you think as I do that a flag is just a flag, then surely all flags exist equally as flags. If you think flags have greater meaning as you seem to do, then I am simply asking you what distinguishes the flag of Imperial Japan and that of Nazi era Germany. If the Nazi flag is so bad based on the regime of Nazi Germany, then how can you deflect the flag of Japan when Japan was an equally hideous regime occupying nations, stealing resources, and carrying out genocide? I think it is a valid observation and yet the flag of Japan isn't being banned or frowned upon.

(patiently)

I answered your question, Miles. I told you Japan's flag is its country flag, just like Germany has its own country flag. The Nazi flag is not Germany's country flag. It has no use... therefore it is not needed as anything other than an instrument of provocation against other human beings. Even you should be able to grasp that simple concept.

[Gandalf]

It doesn't make much sense really. You say that an offensive flag is not okay, but then you say the Japanese flag is okay. How about saying that to victims of genocide in China, or people who have been occupied? Or the 'comfort' women of this country that still have a hard time being understood by the Japanese government? How can the Japanese flag not be equally as offensive to these people as the Nazi flag is to a Jew? How? Did the Nazi's all die in the war and the new flag erased the past? It was the same German people. The same Japanese people.

I reconcile that with the view that a flag is just a flag. However, you seem to be ascribing different rules to different flags. Okay, maybe Japan changed, but what about flags of occupation today? How would an Iraqi feel about a British flag? Not similar to the Nazi flag and the Japan flag? I'm not having a go, but if you don't want to offend you would have to ban a bloody lot of flags and there would be a lot less good comedy!

[Beanz]

I don't think you should ban anything, but if you can not see the difference between a flag that the German people themselves do not want to be associated with, and a flag that represents a country, then you are not really interested in having a debate.

[Beanz]

They twist language so that even dissent becomes terrorism, yet government creates terrorism!


So now that this is understood then perhaps some can see that many of those who turn simply disagreement or the ability to be offended into an automatic assumption that the person who voices this dissent, is being politically correct, are just as guilty of twisting language themsleves. Behind a keyboard people get a sense of immortality and invulnerability in which to admit a flaw in ones argument, a false supposition, or a error of judgement is seen as a weakness. I am as guilty of it as anybody else and it can soon become a war of egos. This though is a forum about boxing and martial arts, with some non boxing boards provided courtesy of the Guv up there behind the curtain twiddling his golden locks and scratching his goaty beard. It is not our own personal blog or website and so common courtesy dictates that restraint must sometimes be used. There has been a huge amount of leeway and freedom shown and though personal insults amongst the Brits are sometime missed by those not living here, seem to have been there since day one. It's banter, what blokes do.

That said the general public who end up here should not be alienated by huge sweeping generalisations and stuff that is offensive for the sake of it. There is a time and a place.


Right now you may throw a stool through the window and let the punch ups resume

[Gandalf]

That was a very good quote. Surely I don't need to break it down for you.

[walrus]

That was a very good quote. Surely I don't need to break it down for you.

That actually was a good quote, I didn't even notice it until it was in bold. Also, your theory is worthy of being on one of those conspiracy docs.

[Beanz]

That was a very good quote. Surely I don't need to break it down for you.

[TitoFan]

Nazi flags should be displayed in museums and shown in documentaries.
Other than that it has no practical, constructive use whatsoever.
Its being deployed in public places or private property where it can be seen by others and deemed offensive should be prohibited.
My opinion and I'll continue to stand by it.

Have a nice day.

[El Kabong]

Nazi flags should be displayed in museums and shown in documentaries.
Other than that it has no practical, constructive use whatsoever.
Its being deployed in public places or private property where it can be seen by others and deemed offensive should be prohibited.
My opinion and I'll continue to stand by it.

Have a nice day.

Alright well that leads me (just playing Devil's Advocate here) to ask....

"How much offense does something have to cause in order for it to be grounds for removal?"

....is there a way to quantify offense? Or is it qualitative and it's simply a matter of how many folks find it offensive?

Anyway, the Supreme Court precedent in 'The National Socialist Party of America vs Skokie, Illinois' flies in the face of your beliefs. I mean I would like for people to abide by the Golden Rule, but some folks are just assholes for no other reason than they want to be and they like everyone else in this country are allowed to express themselves.

Free Speech is something I just figure that people know and accept, but apparently that concept is more difficult than I thought....it does involve lots of patience, mental clarity, and a great deal of restraint.

[Beanz]

Nazi flags should be displayed in museums and shown in documentaries.
Other than that it has no practical, constructive use whatsoever.
Its being deployed in public places or private property where it can be seen by others and deemed offensive should be prohibited.
My opinion and I'll continue to stand by it.

Have a nice day.

Alright well that leads me (just playing Devil's Advocate here) to ask....

"How much offense does something have to cause in order for it to be grounds for removal?"

....is there a way to quantify offense? Or is it qualitative and it's simply a matter of how many folks find it offensive?

Anyway, the Supreme Court precedent in 'The National Socialist Party of America vs Skokie, Illinois' flies in the face of your beliefs. I mean I would like for people to abide by the Golden Rule, but some folks are just assholes for no other reason than they want to be and they like everyone else in this country are allowed to express themselves.

Free Speech is something I just figure that people know and accept, but apparently that concept is more difficult than I thought....it does involve lots of patience, mental clarity, and a great deal of restraint.

It's no good banning anything. Know your enemy. Far right groups have threatened to March all over Europe in places heavily populated by Jewish Holocaust survivors like Golders Green in London and usually they do not turn up or a group of thirty or so are met by hundreds of counter demonstrators. In my younger days I marched with the anti-nazi league in London, Birmingham, Glasgow, Milan, etc and it was important to stand up to bully boys ( even if that meant throwing a few punches if they tried to intimidate and attack, pacifism rarely works) and to show that when they attack minorities that the underdogs will stick together in solidarity. When Mosely and the British Union of Facists marched in 1936 the Police allowed it but the few thousand that turned up in the battle of Cable street in the East End were met not just by the large Jewish Community there, but also the Irish, Trade Unionists, Working class dockers and even housewives. About 100,000 people it is estimated, all united and turned over trucks etc and all though the Police surrounded and protected Mosely and the fascists to protect their right to march, Irish Catholic housewives emptied chamber pots and bowls of old vegetables onto them.

[brocktonblockbust]

LET THEM SKINHEAD FUCKERS WITH THEIR nAZI FLAGS march like nitwits and Heil Hitler---
they are their own judge, jury and executioner.
give cunts enough rope and they hang themselves.

[TitoFan]

Nazi flags should be displayed in museums and shown in documentaries.
Other than that it has no practical, constructive use whatsoever.
Its being deployed in public places or private property where it can be seen by others and deemed offensive should be prohibited.
My opinion and I'll continue to stand by it.

Have a nice day.

Alright well that leads me (just playing Devil's Advocate here) to ask....

"How much offense does something have to cause in order for it to be grounds for removal?"

....is there a way to quantify offense? Or is it qualitative and it's simply a matter of how many folks find it offensive?

Anyway, the Supreme Court precedent in 'The National Socialist Party of America vs Skokie, Illinois' flies in the face of your beliefs. I mean I would like for people to abide by the Golden Rule, but some folks are just assholes for no other reason than they want to be and they like everyone else in this country are allowed to express themselves.

Free Speech is something I just figure that people know and accept, but apparently that concept is more difficult than I thought....it does involve lots of patience, mental clarity, and a great deal of restraint.

It's no good banning anything. Know your enemy. Far right groups have threatened to March all over Europe in places heavily populated by Jewish Holocaust survivors like Golders Green in London and usually they do not turn up or a group of thirty or so are met by hundreds of counter demonstrators. In my younger days I marched with the anti-nazi league in London, Birmingham, Glasgow, Milan, etc and it was important to stand up to bully boys ( even if that meant throwing a few punches if they tried to intimidate and attack, pacifism rarely works) and to show that when they attack minorities that the underdogs will stick together in solidarity. When Mosely and the British Union of Facists marched in 1936 the Police allowed it but the few thousand that turned up in the battle of Cable street in the East End were met not just by the large Jewish Community there, but also the Irish, Trade Unionists, Working class dockers and even housewives. About 100,000 people it is estimated, all united and turned over trucks etc and all though the Police surrounded and protected Mosely and the fascists to protect their right to march, Irish Catholic housewives emptied chamber pots and bowls of old vegetables onto them.

Both your points are well taken. However, let's construct an entirely hypothetical situation:

A man murders the whole family of someone away at work, and is convicted. He serves his prison term, maybe getting out a little early through good conduct or other such B.S. He then decides to move next door to the murdered family's father, and for the hell of it has a flag made with the pictures of each of the victims, each with a big red "X" through their faces. He then decides to fly this flag in his own front yard, in plain view of his neighbor and the other neighbors.

How do we quantify that offense? Other than the victim's father/husband, his friends and family, who else will find it offensive enough to warrant authorities to demand the murderer take it down? What about the murderer's right to Free Speech and expression? How is this any different to someone flying the Nazi flag when there's millions of Jews who were touched either personally or very closely by this tragic holocaust?

Why is it necessary that decisions have a numeric criteria attached to them? As much as we've progressed in the field of computers and artificial intelligence... we still cannot completely program the complexities of human emotions, nor can we expect to have a perfect playbook for every decision that must be made.

People will always try to push the envelope. If you've ever been a parent, you know how children will constantly push that envelope to test just how far they can get away with stuff. Then they'll do it again... just to make sure the response (and limits) are repeatable.

As ludicrous as my example of the murderer may sound, what is so different between that and the Nazi flag? I've already asked (and not received a good answer) what possible useful purpose flying a Nazi flag has. None. Miles, of course, goes off on his tangents trying to comically equate that flag with the country flag of Japan. Thus, no real argument there. But back to my question.... what useful purpose does flying this flag have? We can't just run and hide behind the 1st Amendment every time a controversial issue pops up. Someone's got to exhibit a good set of "cojones" and say... you know what... screw what the Amendment says. You're not interpreting it the right way and therefore you cannot do that. Period.

[Beanz]

It doesn't have to serve a useful purpose. We don't have the first ammendment here.
As a Jew who has family members killed in the holocaust there is no need to give me an allegorical story. I still support the right for people to be offensive. Just don't be surprised when that offense becomes intimidation that I will fight back and good people who know what that feels like join in and help. When fascists flying the Nazi flag want to burn the Talmud then I am not going to fuel that fire by making them feel that they are being persecuted and that I am the one trying to censor other people.