Groves's Loss. What does it do to Froch's "Legacy"?

[Master]

His legacy wasn't made by the groves fights. He over achieved and that's about it. He was a good fighter but not great.

How can somebody over achieve in Boxing? I don't get that at all.

Easy. It's the same way you can over achieved in anything. You aren't the most talented or skilled fighter but you work hard and push through adversity and beat those that are more talented and skilled than yourself.

I was thinking Vaughan Bean getting a world title shot by having the right connection.

[ono]

His legacy wasn't made by the groves fights. He over achieved and that's about it. He was a good fighter but not great.

How can somebody over achieve in Boxing? I don't get that at all.

Easy. It's the same way you can over achieved in anything. You aren't the most talented or skilled fighter but you work hard and push through adversity and beat those that are more talented and skilled than yourself.

But talent and skill are only small components of what makes the fighter. There are several other intangibles that go towards making a fighter 'great' - Heart, Determination, Fitness, Durability, Mental Strength, Desire. Froch has all of those in abundance.

If Boxing was purely based on skill and talent, Adrien Broner would be on everyone's pound 4 pound list. The fact that he isn't anywhere near doesn't mean he is under-achieving. It just means he is exactly as good as his resume suggests - because he lacks the other vital components required to be an elite fighter.

Like i say, you can't over-achieve in Boxing. If you consistently share the ring with and beat World Champions, then at the very minimum you are world class, regardless of how limited your 'talent' appears to be.

[Primo Carnera]

Frochs legacy isn't about superiority. It's that he was a blood and guts warrior that searched out tough fights and made high drama in them.

1. That's not what Carl Froch would say.
2. That statement above was tarnished by the last 12 months of his career where he turned down fight after fight because all he wanted was Chavez jr. In Vegas.

[ono]

So George Groves has lost another World title fight, this time he was expected to win. I like Groves, but I'm not one of these guys that is blind to the facts (Ross)
But the point of this thread is about Froch. He's built this legacy thing on the Bute & Kessler win and the Groves fights.
Well Bute has done nothing since to prove he was anything, Kessler has done nothing to prove he wasn't finished, and now Groves has so far only proved he is European level.
Of course, Froch and his fans will say that they've all Been "Cobra'd", but personally I don't buy that .
IMO, Froch's legacy is that he was a decent World Champion without ever being the no.1 in the division, he had a granite chin , which he needed as his skiilset wasn't good enough, and as Gary Player would say he worked hard and earned himself a lot of luck.
Good but not great ! I'm sure some people will see it differently.

It does nothing at all to it. I'm not sure what luck had to with any of it either. You can be great without ever being technically great. Froch has a lot of very good wins over very dominant fighers.

[Primo Carnera]

So George Groves has lost another World title fight, this time he was expected to win. I like Groves, but I'm not one of these guys that is blind to the facts (Ross)
But the point of this thread is about Froch. He's built this legacy thing on the Bute & Kessler win and the Groves fights.
Well Bute has done nothing since to prove he was anything, Kessler has done nothing to prove he wasn't finished, and now Groves has so far only proved he is European level.
Of course, Froch and his fans will say that they've all Been "Cobra'd", but personally I don't buy that .
IMO, Froch's legacy is that he was a decent World Champion without ever being the no.1 in the division, he had a granite chin , which he needed as his skiilset wasn't good enough, and as Gary Player would say he worked hard and earned himself a lot of luck.
Good but not great ! I'm sure some people will see it differently.

It does nothing at all to it. I'm not sure what luck had to with any of it either. You can be great without ever being technically great. Froch has a lot of very good wins over very dominant fighers.

When I mentioned "Luck" , I alluded to the old Gary Player quote. "The harder I work, the luckier I get." Meaning Froch wasn't lucky, he made his own luck through the hard work and dedication he possessed.

[denilson200]

So George Groves has lost another World title fight, this time he was expected to win. I like Groves, but I'm not one of these guys that is blind to the facts (Ross)
But the point of this thread is about Froch. He's built this legacy thing on the Bute & Kessler win and the Groves fights.
Well Bute has done nothing since to prove he was anything, Kessler has done nothing to prove he wasn't finished, and now Groves has so far only proved he is European level.
Of course, Froch and his fans will say that they've all Been "Cobra'd", but personally I don't buy that .
IMO, Froch's legacy is that he was a decent World Champion without ever being the no.1 in the division, he had a granite chin , which he needed as his skiilset wasn't good enough, and as Gary Player would say he worked hard and earned himself a lot of luck.
Good but not great ! I'm sure some people will see it differently.

Problem is no-one has said that Froch was the greatest or even an all time great. So there is no throne to knock him off. Even Froch himself says that he was not the most talented of fighters.

As for Groves loss to Jack ? I think it's more that people under-rated Jack, than over-rated Groves.

Groves is still decent fighter but of course 3 world title shots in two years, all losses, means he has to go the very back of cue and he has some serious rebuilding to do.

But there are still good fights for him. The winner of the Rocky Fielding Vs Callum Smith would be a good one for starts and even a return with Degale would be good (I thought Degale won the first) but it was very close.

[tysonesque]

Froch was a very limited fighter, but had a granite chin and an outstanding attitude and work ethic. He was also involved in some entertaining fights. That's how I will remember him.

Got lucky a few times in his career and was completely outclassed by the only really elite fighter he ever fought who was at the top of his game.

Groves fought Froch towards the end of his career when there weren't really many meaningful fights out here for him. Sure, he dropped Froch and gave him all kinds of trouble in the first fight, but then he ran out of gas and totally choked in the rematch. It's not really a fight that defines Froch's career, but it does reiterate what we already knew: Froch wasn't pretty, but he came to fight and, most of the time, he found a way to win. How does he compare to the all time great middleweights? To be honest, he doesn't really compare at all, but he did unbelievably well for a guy with such limited skills.

As for Groves, well, he's an OK fighter and the first Froch fight was a classic, but he won't live long in the memory.

[powerpuncher]

So George Groves has lost another World title fight, this time he was expected to win. I like Groves, but I'm not one of these guys that is blind to the facts (Ross)
But the point of this thread is about Froch. He's built this legacy thing on the Bute & Kessler win and the Groves fights.
Well Bute has done nothing since to prove he was anything, Kessler has done nothing to prove he wasn't finished, and now Groves has so far only proved he is European level.
Of course, Froch and his fans will say that they've all Been "Cobra'd", but personally I don't buy that .
IMO, Froch's legacy is that he was a decent World Champion without ever being the no.1 in the division, he had a granite chin , which he needed as his skiilset wasn't good enough, and as Gary Player would say he worked hard and earned himself a lot of luck.
Good but not great ! I'm sure some people will see it differently.

Problem is no-one has said that Froch was the greatest or even an all time great. So there is no throne to knock him off. Even Froch himself says that he was not the most talented of fighters.

As for Groves loss to Jack ? I think it's more that people under-rated Jack, than over-rated Groves.

Groves is still decent fighter but of course 3 world title shots in two years, all losses, means he has to go the very back of cue and he has some serious rebuilding to do.

But there are still good fights for him. The winner of the Rocky Fielding Vs Callum Smith would be a good one for starts and even a return with Degale would be good (I thought Degale won the first) but it was very close.

Jack is underrated because he's black

[denilson200]

So George Groves has lost another World title fight, this time he was expected to win. I like Groves, but I'm not one of these guys that is blind to the facts (Ross)
But the point of this thread is about Froch. He's built this legacy thing on the Bute & Kessler win and the Groves fights.
Well Bute has done nothing since to prove he was anything, Kessler has done nothing to prove he wasn't finished, and now Groves has so far only proved he is European level.
Of course, Froch and his fans will say that they've all Been "Cobra'd", but personally I don't buy that .
IMO, Froch's legacy is that he was a decent World Champion without ever being the no.1 in the division, he had a granite chin , which he needed as his skiilset wasn't good enough, and as Gary Player would say he worked hard and earned himself a lot of luck.
Good but not great ! I'm sure some people will see it differently.

Problem is no-one has said that Froch was the greatest or even an all time great. So there is no throne to knock him off. Even Froch himself says that he was not the most talented of fighters.

As for Groves loss to Jack ? I think it's more that people under-rated Jack, than over-rated Groves.

Groves is still decent fighter but of course 3 world title shots in two years, all losses, means he has to go the very back of cue and he has some serious rebuilding to do.

But there are still good fights for him. The winner of the Rocky Fielding Vs Callum Smith would be a good one for starts and even a return with Degale would be good (I thought Degale won the first) but it was very close.

Jack is underrated because he's black

And Groves over-rated because he white? Yes ?

You brought up race. Not me. I did not mention anything to do with race. You brought it up.