HW prospects..

[TitoFan]

This is a "no-win" argument. One side loves the Klitschkos, and will go to great lengths to talk up the division. All of a sudden, fighters like Byrd, Austin, Solis, Thompson.... are world-beaters. And there's little anyone can do but either agree or disagree with the argument. Too subjective.

The other side hates the Klitschkos for being boring, and blame the Klitschkos themselves for the state of the heavyweight division, like it's their fault. The fact that most opponents enter the ring against Wlad shitting their pants is somehow Wlad's fault.

I am neither. I think of myself as completely objective on the matter. Not a Klitschko hater..... but realistic enough to not be blinded by their dominance and recognize some hardcore facts. Facts such as:

1. Obviously arguing about the quality of Wlad's opponents is fruitless. Wlad fans will contend they are as good as any other era (cough)...... whereas Wlad haters will say the opponents are garbage. I'm not a Wlad hater, but I side with the haters on this particular point. However........

2. One thing that CANNOT be argued is that the quality of fights themselves has totally dropped in the Klitschko era. Again Wlad fans will differ, but they are kidding themselves. What brings fans to heavyweight fights? Quality of fights. Give and take. Punching and counter-punching. Epic battles. How many of these battles has Wlad been in? Answer: ZILCH. End of discussion. Is this Wlad's fault? Hell no. If he can take the "W" and go home unscathed, by pawing at an opponent cowering in fear (see: David Haye)..... then why should he risk bodily injury? Fair enough. Is it exciting for boxing fans? Not this boxing fan.

3. Put down the opponents in Holmes' era. I don't care. Like I said, I am a Larry Holmes hater. Can't stand the guy. But he was in some epic battles which brought people to boxing. But will any blind Klitschko fan concede this point? Of course not!! They'll point to some far-fetched reason as to why this is untrue. But you know what? I'm gonna make a poll out of it. Yeah... that's what I'll do.

4. Is talking down the quality of Wlad's opponents or his fights, denying Wlad's greatness or place in boxing history? Of course the hell not!! Again, I'm capable of separating one thing from the other. Are you? Wlad fans? Probably not. Yes, Wlad is great. Yes, Wlad will be in the HOF. Etc, etc, etc. Has this era been good for boxing or has it brought new U.S. fans to the HW division? NO.

1. Wlad can only fight who is in his era and a 58 (51 KO)-3 record is nothing to sneeze at. Wlad wins, he wins by KO...what more do you want? He doesn't fight like Tyson because he's not Mike Tyson and people need to let that shit go and appreciate what we have now, they didn't appreciate Lennox Lewis either and now they're looking past the Klitschko's waiting for another Tyson.

2. "What brings fans to heavyweight fights?" 30,000 fans in Switzerland saw Wlad live and in person whup Tony Thompson again and 50,000+ watched him vs Eddie Chambers and Ruslan Chagaev....are you fucking serious "What brings fans to heavyweight fights?"...when was the last time 50,000 Americans went to a heavyweight boxing match? I don't know I have no idea, but just because heavyweight boxing IN AMERICA is hurting doesn't mean that worldwide it's hurting, because it obviously isn't. It's not like people are forced to buy tickets to see Wlad and Vitali fight.

3. Epic battles are fine but you don't have to have epic battles to be a great fighter. Mickey Ward had epic battles, he's not a great fighter. Willie Pep hardly ever had a "battle" and he's a great fighter. Question, how many "Epic battles" was Tyson in? Liston? Lennox Lewis?

4. Wlad made me follow boxing closer, in fact I probably never would have started boxing at all had I not seen Wlad fight. I like many others had gone my entire life and rarely if ever seen an "educated boxer" and even rarer still, seen one that fought like Wlad did. alas, I'm one of the very few, but hey I'm one.

I'm not belittling Wlad or his accomplishments, Lyle. And in another thread, you've seen that I recommend a more active Wlad, to clear a path through all the top contenders and leave no doubt as to "Wlad vs. X, or Wlad vs. Y". I mean, it's not like he's taking a pounding from his opponents, who basically enter the ring defeated already. He could fight 3-4 times a year, easy. So this way, he could take out all the names that are sounding out there. "Yes, Wlad beat Ibragimov, but how about Arreola?" "Yes, Wlad beat Peter, but how about Povetkin?" Etc, etc, etc.

And while Wlad is adored in Europe and is quite the draw... you and I both know that hasn't translated well to the U.S. First of all, the guy hasn't fought in the U.S. since the borefest with Ibragimov in 2008. The U.S., specifically Las Vegas, is the mecca of boxing. It's where all boxers strive to fight and make a name for themselves on a global level. American boxing fans were more interested in the HW division when Tyson was fighting... when Holmes was fighting. Hell, even when Lennox was fighting. The fights themselves were more interesting, more gripping.

My point about epic fights is that they serve to quickly pick up interest in boxing. Holmes-Norton was one example. Norton is no HOF'er, to be honest. But his fight against Holmes was the stuff of legends. And again... I'm a Larry Holmes hater. But people reacted to that fight. All of a sudden, they couldn't wait for the next HW fight.

Wlad's opponents enter the ring with their underwear soiled already. They're looking for the way out. And Wlad usually doesn't risk unnecessary injury or the "lucky punch" on his way to the "W". I would probably do the same. But it makes for "fan-unfriendly" fights.

So maybe if Wlad got busier, and.... had a couple of good, exciting fights in the U.S. (Vegas or MSG) against (and I stress) WILLING opponents.... his stock would dramatically rise, and people would come to appreciate more his excellent fighting skills. You can speak for yourself, because you're a longtime boxing fan, and happen to appreciate someone of Wlad's skills and dominance. But if look at the big picture, you'll see my point.

[THE PHILOSOPHER]

This is a "no-win" argument. One side loves the Klitschkos, and will go to great lengths to talk up the division. All of a sudden, fighters like Byrd, Austin, Solis, Thompson.... are world-beaters. And there's little anyone can do but either agree or disagree with the argument. Too subjective.

Byrd, solis and thompson clearly are world beaters though are'nt they?? Byrd and thompson are both southpaws which is a rarity in the division anyway! (ali stated his trickiest ever fight (style wise) was mildenberger a southpaw! Holyfield lost to the 3 southpaws he fought! And tyson and lennox never fought any southpaws! Combine that with tony's physicality as a fighter and byrd's defensive prowess and how would they not do well in any era? 39-3 and 47-5 are records not to be sniffed at! So how are they not as good as i.e tony tucker or james smith from tysons era? Tucker was outboxed by orlin norris twice! Who's outboxing tony thompson lately? No one except wlad! And as i said solis a 6x gold medallist is clearly and exceptional talent, he just has training isues..id like to see manny steward or roach get hold of him!

In 2008 Thompson took out Luan Krasniqi in germany in 5 rounds!!!! Thompson earns his shot with his fists not words unlike the gaymaker! Thompson got too less credit for the fight against Krasniqi and 1st Wlad fight. Guinn, beck, harris, witherspoon, ibragimov, diaz...all theses men were/are prospects and legitimate contenders, thompson is just better than them!

They clearly are world beaters......

1. Obviously arguing about the quality of Wlad's opponents is fruitless. Wlad fans will contend they are as good as any other era (cough)...... whereas Wlad haters will say the opponents are garbage. I'm not a Wlad hater, but I side with the haters on this particular point. However........

Nadal/federer, bolt/powell, ronaldo/messi vitali/wlad! Is it sinking in yet? ppl act like there are 10 great fighters in any era lol truth is has always been only 2/3. Take the 10 best of this era and put them against the 10 best of any era and it would be laughably one sided in most cases considering the advances in training and human beings as a whole i.e not fighting in mafia era's in societies gripped by depression and bad nutrition etc and for many other reasons...most heavyweight from yesteryear are CW's and LHW's by todays standards anyhow!

2. One thing that CANNOT be argued is that the quality of fights themselves has totally dropped in the Klitschko era. Again Wlad fans will differ, but they are kidding themselves. What brings fans to heavyweight fights? Quality of fights. Give and take. Punching and counter-punching. Epic battles. How many of these battles has Wlad been in? Answer: ZILCH. End of discussion. Is this Wlad's fault? Hell no. If he can take the "W" and go home unscathed, by pawing at an opponent cowering in fear (see: David Haye)..... then why should he risk bodily injury? Fair enough. Is it exciting for boxing fans? Not this boxing fan.

How is wlad going to be in an epic battle? Do u have no appreciation for a man who has perfected a style that is nearly flawless! He is a cautious, intelligent fighter, he does not fight to please u or to damage his future helath, he gets the job done, both of them do, andre ward is boring as hell! Wlad is not a caveman.

3. Put down the opponents in Holmes' era. I don't care. Like I said, I am a Larry Holmes hater. Can't stand the guy. But he was in some epic battles which brought people to boxing. But will any blind Klitschko fan concede this point? Of course not!! They'll point to some far-fetched reason as to why this is untrue. But you know what? I'm gonna make a poll out of it. Yeah... that's what I'll do.

He was in some epic battles but it doesn't make wlad a lesser boxer because he choses to fight safe! It's not wlads fault that holmes couldn't keep carl williams or renaldo snipes off of him is it? Don't watch then, but at the same time don't criticise just because it doesn't fit your M.O.

4. Is talking down the quality of Wlad's opponents or his fights, denying Wlad's greatness or place in boxing history? Of course the hell not!! Again, I'm capable of separating one thing from the other. Are you? Wlad fans? Probably not. Yes, Wlad is great. Yes, Wlad will be in the HOF. Etc, etc, etc. Has this era been good for boxing or has it brought new U.S. fans to the HW division? NO.

Ironic thing is this discussion is taking place on a prospects thread which has nothing to do with the klitschkos and pretty much owns the 'HW boxing is dead' brigade! Some pppl seem to make any excuse and take any chance they can to deride the era even on a thread that doesn't concern the klitschkos! HW boxing is not dead in america just because the klitschko's rule! It's like like saying american sprinting is dead just because the jamaicans now dominate! Believe it or not roger federer is every bit as good as pete sampras was and wlad is every bit as good as the american greats were! Who cares if american fans are not flocking for them? Why would they want pay to see there fighters get beat up by the old enemy? By men who don't look like them, don't speak there language and will not conform to don king or to acting like imbeciles (as many american heavyweights have in the past!)

A lack of americanisation does not mean a lack of quality!

The klitschkos are dominant like no other champions ever, they give millions to charity, hold PHD's and are multi lingual, they also act like men and show interest in current world affairs rather than letting the sport consume them and ending up drooling and bankrupt whining about some dude that beat them years ago! Haters gunna hate though...

[THE PHILOSOPHER]

Malik Scott (33-0):




David Rodriguez (36-0):




JD Chapman (29-0):



3 more prospects for yuz all!

[El Kabong]

THE PHILOSOPHER, that is an exceptional post, well done!


OK, let's take some arguments that people have against the Klitschko's and make sure we're being fair in our judgments:

They haven't been in an epic battle: Well #1 nobody in the current division is on their level for one. Holyfield had Bowe, Ali had Frazier, who do the Klitschko's have? Vitali vs Lennox was an epic battle IMO, I've never seen 2 big guys swing for the fences like that before so give some credit there. #2 There are any number of heavyweights that never had "epic battles", Mike Tyson for example...was he ever in a "battle"? No, he either kicked ass or got his ass kicked. Lennox Lewis? vs Vitali maybe, but not vs anyone else. Larry Holmes?

The division is weak: Heavyweight divisions throughout the ages have been plagued by inconsistent fighters, weight/shape issues, injuries, legal troubles, promoter troubles, etc. It has been the case from the dawn of the sport. Fighters have streaks of good & bad luck, look how poor Foreman was when he retired and how he came back to dominate after getting his head together...these things happen. Remember Ike Ibeabuchi? Think about what could have been, there are plenty of guys like that. David Tua's career was halted by legal issues. Wlad vs Lennox Lewis never happened because Wlad hit an inconsistent streak....shit happens and it happens in every division not just the heavyweights but the reason the heavyweights are so affected is because they don't have multiple divisions that are close in weight where fighters can just say "I'm going to be a heavyweight". Also the idea that you can pick and choose guys out of whichever era and say "Wlad would never beat X", "Vitali would never beat Y" is silly because usually the person saying it has a skewed opinion to begin with & it's a hypothetical situation so we'll never know.

The Klitschko's fight safety first/they are boring: Do Roy Jones Jr. & Floyd Mayweather Jr. attempt to fight like Vinnie Pazienza or Arturo Gatti? Why not? Perhaps it is because their skill provides them with the ability to fight in a different manner where they can be dominant without risking as much. They've never been in "epic battles" either....Why didn't Willie Pep fight like Carmen Basilio? Guys fight differently, they fight to their own individual advantages and the Klitschko brothers are no different. Lennox Lewis caught the same shit from the fans when he was champion, but now he is remembered in a better light because people to an objective look at him when he retired, hopefully when the Klitschko's retire people will take a long hard look and see that they were great champions.

The Klitschko's are the best of this era (say what you will about it) and they have been just as dominant as any other champion has before them. They have unified the belts, they win & win by KO (for the most part) and they defend their titles often.

[TitoFan]

You chose to ignore post # 31, Lyle... and that's fine. You see... that's where posters here lose a little credibility. When have I dissed Wlad and his skills? I did that in his glass jaw years... but lately, no. All I do is talk him up. But I go into some constructive criticism about the division itself....... AND...... come up with some suggestions as to what Wlad can do to improve his image in the U.S...... and you become all defensive and shut yourself off. Only those who share your exact views point by point have valid arguments. In that way, you're no better than those we all criticize. I get slammed for being a Cotto "fanboy". Yet I criticize him for things even the haters don't think about criticizing him for. What I DO take exception to are the haters that criticize everything the guy does. That, Lyle, is what denotes real "hate". When you're incapable of saying something positive about a fighter you don't like. Anyone who's been on the forum over 2 minutes knows you're the biggest Wlad fan here. There's nothing wrong with that. But when you dismiss everything that is said, except praise that mirrors your own, it eats away at your credibility. I know you'll dismiss this comment with the arrogance you sometimes display. That's fine.

I'm not gonna repeat what I posted in post # 31. I think it's there for you to read, if you choose. It has nothing but praise for Wlad, but it does mention some ways for Wlad to improve his image even more. It's OK to feel that the U.S. market is not the "cure-all, end-all" for boxing. To think that would be foolish. But to go the other way and ignore the importance of the U.S. market is even more foolish. Simply put: a fighter who is cherished in Europe but ignored in the U.S. can improve his image. A fighter that unknown outside the U.S. can also improve his image. If you can capture both markets, the way Ali used to..... then you're talking.

What opponents do when they enter the ring against Wlad is totally outside his control. They want to go in there like whimpering little puppies waiting for the axe to fall? Fine. Why not cut a swath through the division until there's no one left? Someone's bound to give Wlad a fight sooner or later.

[El Kabong]

Wlad knows the US is a key market which is why he wants to fight in the US again. Once he does (likely vs Mitchell or Arreola) he will want to win over fans. Wlad is not satisfied having fought Sultan Ibragimov in New York be a lasting image of who he is, what he has accomplished. It took Lennox Lewis time to become accepted by the fans in the United States, Wlad will get there, he knows he has to.

[TitoFan]

Wlad knows the US is a key market which is why he wants to fight in the US again. Once he does (likely vs Mitchell or Arreola) he will want to win over fans. Wlad is not satisfied having fought Sultan Ibragimov in New York be a lasting image of who he is, what he has accomplished. It took Lennox Lewis time to become accepted by the fans in the United States, Wlad will get there, he knows he has to.

For the sake of heavyweight boxing's image in the United States, and maybe the immediate future of the state of the division in the States....... I hope you're right.

[El Kabong]

For the sake of heavyweight boxing's image in the United States, and maybe the immediate future of the state of the division in the States....... I hope you're right.

Well there are always fights that COULD cure that....Arreola-Stiverne for one, but I think that's not going to happen now. I do believe Arreola will put in a solid effort vs Wladimir if/when that fight happens. Seth Mitchell also seems to me like a guy who will put forth some effort and try to win the belts rather than just sit back and take an ass whupping.

The division is more than just the Klitschko's, and by alienating the entire division HBO has really shot itself in the foot. If you're not going to show Klitschko fights due to where they happen & what time they happen, fine, but if the next Evander Holyfield or Mike Tyson is currently fighting in the US and is not getting covered....well that's just fucking stupid.

There are 2 ways a division can go in boxing....you can have complete and utter dominance or you can have constant turnover and rivalries. people can get bored of both.

[TitoFan]

For the sake of heavyweight boxing's image in the United States, and maybe the immediate future of the state of the division in the States....... I hope you're right.

Well there are always fights that COULD cure that....Arreola-Stiverne for one, but I think that's not going to happen now. I do believe Arreola will put in a solid effort vs Wladimir if/when that fight happens. Seth Mitchell also seems to me like a guy who will put forth some effort and try to win the belts rather than just sit back and take an ass whupping.

The division is more than just the Klitschko's, and by alienating the entire division HBO has really shot itself in the foot. If you're not going to show Klitschko fights due to where they happen & what time they happen, fine, but if the next Evander Holyfield or Mike Tyson is currently fighting in the US and is not getting covered....well that's just fucking stupid.

There are 2 ways a division can go in boxing....you can have complete and utter dominance or you can have constant turnover and rivalries. people can get bored of both.

Funny thing about today's crop of HW's is: they can look great fighting each other..... and then turn around and look like deer caught in headlights against Wlad. This frustrates the living shit out of me. But yeah.... HBO/Showtime could try and feature some of these other heavyweights against each other, and maybe some good, competitive fights would pop out. Viewers would eventually come around. (It would help if they're not fat-asses like James Toney or Solis).

Still, the division will really benefit when someone finally steps up to the plate and takes a few good swings at Wlad, instead of performing "David Haye impressions."

[TitoFan]

No denying Wladimir Klitschko is already heavyweight royalty - ESPN



Here you go, Lyle. I know you'll like this article by Dan Rafael. He and I agree on one thing.... Wlad could be busier. Let's hope he picks up the pace and, in doing so, finds someone who will push him and make for an entertaining and competitive fight. Tony "Where's the Nearest Exit" Thompson certainly didn't fit that description.

[THE PHILOSOPHER]

Thankyou el kabong, very kind. Good post also.

[THE PHILOSOPHER]

No denying Wladimir Klitschko is already heavyweight royalty - ESPN



Here you go, Lyle. I know you'll like this article by Dan Rafael. He and I agree on one thing.... Wlad could be busier. Let's hope he picks up the pace and, in doing so, finds someone who will push him and make for an entertaining and competitive fight. Tony "Where's the Nearest Exit" Thompson certainly didn't fit that description.

Dan rafael is a terrible boxing scribe, ridiculed worldwide.

[El Kabong]

I agree with Rafael on things here and there and he does have a favorable view of Wladimir, but Wlad already fights pretty often usually 2 times a year and he's running out of opponents. Wlad has 13 successful title defenses (or there abouts) so far and to get 25 would only be difficult in terms of finding guys ready & willing to fight him. Rafael writes like if Wlad wanted to he could break that record tomorrow.

[rjj tszyu]

I see Mitchell getting KO'd if he moves up a level now. I just don't see him living with guys like Arreola, Chambers and Adamek. Klitschko would kill him!

[THE PHILOSOPHER]

I agree with Rafael on things here and there and he does have a favorable view of Wladimir, but Wlad already fights pretty often usually 2 times a year and he's running out of opponents. Wlad has 13 successful title defenses (or there abouts) so far and to get 25 would only be difficult in terms of finding guys ready & willing to fight him. Rafael writes like if Wlad wanted to he could break that record tomorrow.

I don't rate him as a writer. He does have his good points though, being a wlad fan is one of them.

Povertkin needs to man up. It would seal a great resume and would probably be at least a top 3 win for wlad. Povetkin doesn't want to know though! Shame because its a natural fight to make just like lewis v byrd was in the early 00's.