SUGAR RAY LEONARD - HOW GREAT??

[DaxxKahn]

Duran greatest Lightweight
Leonard greatest welterweight
Hagler greatest middleweight
Hearns greatest Light middle, Super middle, light heavy.

Tommy was starched twice at super middle by Barkley...Had a draw with leonard and at LH the only quality fighter he faced was an undefeated Virgil Hill...Nor was/is he the greatest Jr Middle.....

[SEANIE]

Gonna get some flack for this, but I aint a believer that Leonard was a top 10 all time great!!

Yeh the guy was a great and fought in the best era in history for his weight, but on watching his fights I don't think he was quite as good as a lot of people believe

Duran I

He was getting busted up by Duran during that fight and was really bullied (can't believe Duran started career at 119 pounds) love that fight

Hearns I

Was dominated throughout the fight was totally busted up and would've lost a 12 round fight. Great credit for getting Hearns out of there in the 14th though

Hearns II

I thought he was well beaten


I aint slating the guy, I just would put Hagler and Duran ahead of him p4p all time - and if Hearns had a better chin and didn't have legs like Jelly, he would've been better than all of them

At the end of the day he did beat Duran (No Mass) Hagler (Questionable) and Hearns ( A bit fortunate) but I don't think that

he was unlucky that due to eye injuries he lost his best boxing years, but eventhough i thought hagler beat him he was an all time great, but not a top ten maybe top 50 at a push.

[BlackRazor]

if you are calling suger ray good and not great i don't think you know boxing.

Oh I know boxing. Which is why I was able to see through the fraud job that was most of Leonard's career. Some one with limited knowledge wouldn't be able to see through it. Which is why you call him great.

But Ray beat an unbeaten Hearns who later went on to win additional titles proving Ray didn't expose Hearns as a fraud. After he made Duran quit, Duran went up & whipped a young, strong Davey Moore proving Duran had something left @ 154. Ray just making it close with Hagler (a true destroyer) was impressive. Also Ray beating Benitez to win the WBC 147 lb title wasn't bad as was beating an unbeaten Ayub Kalule to take his 154 lb WBA belt before fighting Hearns the 1st time.

Later he beat a much bigger man in Don LaLonde - granted, not a great fighter but a bigger & stronger man than Ray.

If Ray's a fraud after all that, I'd love to be that sort of fraud!

[Sugar_Shaw]

Gonna get some flack for this, but I aint a believer that Leonard was a top 10 all time great!!

Yeh the guy was a great and fought in the best era in history for his weight, but on watching his fights I don't think he was quite as good as a lot of people believe

Duran I

He was getting busted up by Duran during that fight and was really bullied (can't believe Duran started career at 119 pounds) love that fight

Hearns I

Was dominated throughout the fight was totally busted up and would've lost a 12 round fight. Great credit for getting Hearns out of there in the 14th though

Hearns II

I thought he was well beaten


I aint slating the guy, I just would put Hagler and Duran ahead of him p4p all time - and if Hearns had a better chin and didn't have legs like Jelly, he would've been better than all of them

At the end of the day he did beat Duran (No Mass) Hagler (Questionable) and Hearns ( A bit fortunate) but I don't think that

Only reason he lost the Duran fight is because Duran was talking trash that Leonard never fights or brawls ect so Leonard wanted to prove he could stand his ground if Leonard would of fought his normal way the trilogy would be 3-0 to Leonard.
Hearns was a beast at Welterweight 6 foot 1 tell me one person at Welterweight who wouldn't be outboxed by Hearns at some point ??

I think Leonard is great he had 3 year lay off and comeback to beat number 1 man in Middleweight division Hagler.

Beating

Hearns
Hagler
Duran
Benitez makes you a great.

Surely that proves that shows his frail mentality, not exactly something you expect from a great.
The loss to Duran takes him down a lot in my opinion, Duran was great but he was 12 lbs over his best weight. But he redeemed himself making Duran quit. The third fight came so late it has no historical relevance to me. Beating Hearns (Knocking him out aswell) is a great acheivement, specially showing the character forcing teh kayo while down on the cards. The second fight IMO Hearns won but it goes down as a draw in the record books so after two fight with Hearns being able to say you never lost to 'The Hitman' that is a fantastic thing to be able to boast about. To out fox Hagler the way he did but The biggest jewel in his crown. To beat one of the greatest middleweight's of all-time at 160 lbs is SRL's greatest achievement IMO. a win over a much bigger Don Lalonde is another vital part of the great moments in his career. The losses to Norris and Camacho don't mean anything to me. Ali lost to Berbick but everyone forgets that fight and remebers his prime so thats what I am doing with Leonard.

I have him just outside the top te of all-time.

well does it show a frail mentality or massive balls ?

If I was a great "boxer" i wouldn't have the guts to dare slug with a beast like the Hands of stone heh.

Well those massive balls didn't gain him the win, big balls are good but a win is far better

[Trainer Monkey]

Of course he won the next one,and he proved he could survive a slug fest nobody thought he could,making everyone re-think whatever game plan they had for him
1 loss today can be worth 10 wins down the road

[SweetPea]

Leonard is one of the most difficult fighters to rank, because he basically took 5 full years off during what could have been his prime.

I thought he lost to Hagler and lost the rematch with Hearns.
I'd probably put him right about #10 all-time.

One of the great arguments in boxing is trying to rate Leonard/Duran/Whitaker all-time PFP. There's really no right answer.

[ICB]

Interesting stuff fellas - if I was rating teh fab four p4p I would say

Duran
Hagler
Leonard
Hearns

How is Duran rated higher he lost all big fights like.

Wilfredo Benitez
Kirkland Laing
Marvin Hagler
Thomas Hearns in brutal fashion
Robbie Sims


His best wins were Iran Barkley and Pipino Cuevas and Davey Moore and he lost to guys like Laing and Simms who he shouldn't of lost to no way is Duran the best of the 4.

[BlackRazor]

Interesting stuff fellas - if I was rating teh fab four p4p I would say

Duran
Hagler
Leonard
Hearns

How is Duran rated higher he lost all big fights like.

Wilfredo Benitez
Kirkland Laing
Marvin Hagler
Thomas Hearns in brutal fashion
Robbie Sims


His best wins were Iran Barkley and Pipino Cuevas and Davey Moore and he lost to guys like Laing and Simms who he shouldn't of lost to no way is Duran the best of the 4.

Great question Ice Cold. Hearns didn't just beat Duran, he iced him like Duran was some sort of club fighter & Hearns was using the fight as a tune up bout.

[Manju]

Definitely among the all-time greats. Tremendous natural talent, especially his hand and foot speed and boxing ability. Despite being able to out-box most opponents, he often went in for kill. Didn't hurt that he had excellent power and a tremendous chin.

But its that heart that distinguishes him from many other extremely talented fighters (like say, roy jones). He went toe to toe with duran when he didn't have to. his KO of hearns was one of the most dramatic comebacks in boxing history. He almost repeated that in Hearns II. Often great atletes are defined by great moments, and Leonard had more than most: like making duran quit, or coming off the ropes in rd 9 vs. hagler. What heart, what drama.

But the real characteristic that puts him among the all-time was his ability to win while his skills declined. The hagler fight was one of the best thought out strategies in boxing history (probably ali-foremen being the greatest). The greatest athletes in history (ali, Jordan) were able to win with brains and change their style as their skills eroded, something tyson, for example, could not do.

[Scrap]

Thats a good post cc

[BIG H]

Interesting stuff fellas - if I was rating teh fab four p4p I would say

Duran
Hagler
Leonard
Hearns

How is Duran rated higher he lost all big fights like.

Wilfredo Benitez
Kirkland Laing
Marvin Hagler
Thomas Hearns in brutal fashion
Robbie Sims


His best wins were Iran Barkley and Pipino Cuevas and Davey Moore and he lost to guys like Laing and Simms who he shouldn't of lost to no way is Duran the best of the 4.

You obviously know more than almost all the respected boxing writers in the world that almost unanimously have Duran in the top 5 fighters of all time.

Problem is that you have not seen his career as a lightweight which is where he is a should be rated. He had already had 75 fights before any of the fights you mentioned and the loses were after he moved up atleast 2 weights - he was 71-1 at Lightweight FFS. Beat Sugar Ray Leonard at Welter, was level after 12 against Hagler at Middle all of this after over 70 fights!!

He started his career at 119 pounds, was 5'7 and had a 26" reach, is it really a surprisde that he lost to 6'1 Thomas Hearns at 154 pounds??

When you make comments like this about Duran you come across as a 'Johnnycomelately" whose only knowledge of Duran's career is what you have seen on Boxrec

[El Gamo]

Definitely among the all-time greats. Tremendous natural talent, especially his hand and foot speed and boxing ability. Despite being able to out-box most opponents, he often went in for kill. Didn't hurt that he had excellent power and a tremendous chin.

But its that heart that distinguishes him from many other extremely talented fighters (like say, roy jones). He went toe to toe with duran when he didn't have to. his KO of hearns was one of the most dramatic comebacks in boxing history. He almost repeated that in Hearns II. Often great atletes are defined by great moments, and Leonard had more than most: like making duran quit, or coming off the ropes in rd 9 vs. hagler. What heart, what drama.

But the real characteristic that puts him among the all-time was his ability to win while his skills declined. The hagler fight was one of the best thought out strategies in boxing history (probably ali-foremen being the greatest). The greatest athletes in history (ali, Jordan) were able to win with brains and change their style as their skills eroded, something tyson, for example, could not do.

Superb post friend,have a cool click on me.

Interesting stuff fellas - if I was rating teh fab four p4p I would say

Duran
Hagler
Leonard
Hearns

How is Duran rated higher he lost all big fights like.

Wilfredo Benitez
Kirkland Laing
Marvin Hagler
Thomas Hearns in brutal fashion
Robbie Sims


His best wins were Iran Barkley and Pipino Cuevas and Davey Moore and he lost to guys like Laing and Simms who he shouldn't of lost to no way is Duran the best of the 4.

You obviously know more than almost all the respected boxing writers in the world that almost unanimously have Duran in the top 5 fighters of all time.

Problem is that you have not seen his career as a lightweight which is where he is a should be rated. He had already had 75 fights before any of the fights you mentioned and the loses were after he moved up atleast 2 weights - he was 71-1 at Lightweight FFS. Beat Sugar Ray Leonard at Welter, was level after 12 against Hagler at Middle all of this after over 70 fights!!

He started his career at 119 pounds, was 5'7 and had a 26" reach, is it really a surprisde that he lost to 6'1 Thomas Hearns at 154 pounds??

When you make comments like this about Duran you come across as a 'Johnnycomelately" whose only knowledge of Duran's career is what you have seen on Boxrec

CC Big H,totally agree. Duran was first and foremost a lightweight and is as complete a legend there as you'll find in any weight class although I didn't actually know he started at 119?!?!?!?! Anything he did after lightweight was the icing on the cake and for him to go as high as he did and still win is simply sensational.Good posting. I've never seen Duran not in a top 10 list and usually top 5.

[VictorCharlie]

Not to go on a tangent, but I would have loved to see ODH vs Duran at 135

[ICB]

Interesting stuff fellas - if I was rating teh fab four p4p I would say

Duran
Hagler
Leonard
Hearns

How is Duran rated higher he lost all big fights like.

Wilfredo Benitez
Kirkland Laing
Marvin Hagler
Thomas Hearns in brutal fashion
Robbie Sims


His best wins were Iran Barkley and Pipino Cuevas and Davey Moore and he lost to guys like Laing and Simms who he shouldn't of lost to no way is Duran the best of the 4.

You obviously know more than almost all the respected boxing writers in the world that almost unanimously have Duran in the top 5 fighters of all time.

Problem is that you have not seen his career as a lightweight which is where he is a should be rated. He had already had 75 fights before any of the fights you mentioned and the loses were after he moved up atleast 2 weights - he was 71-1 at Lightweight FFS. Beat Sugar Ray Leonard at Welter, was level after 12 against Hagler at Middle all of this after over 70 fights!!

He started his career at 119 pounds, was 5'7 and had a 26" reach, is it really a surprisde that he lost to 6'1 Thomas Hearns at 154 pounds??

When you make comments like this about Duran you come across as a 'Johnnycomelately" whose only knowledge of Duran's career is what you have seen on Boxrec

And Chavez was 89-0 before he lost he should be top 5 aswell then ?? im making comments on what i think about Duran and 5 is way too high imo he only beat 2 good names at Lightweight Ken and Esteban and them 2 names shouldn't make you top 5 yes he had amazing record but top 5 of all time ?? surley not.


He started his career at 119 pounds, was 5'7 and had a 26" reach, is it really a surprisde that he lost to 6'1 Thomas Hearns at 154 pounds??

It doesn't matter he still lost in brutal fashion Duran lost most of the big fights like losing the trilogy against Leonard losing to Hagler yes he gave good account of himself but still lost he lost to Hearns in 2 rounds and he lost to Wilfredo Benitez and just because i disagree i have to look up on boxrec ?? i have watched many Duran fights and have studied up on him not on boxrec either.

[DaxxKahn]

Interesting stuff fellas - if I was rating teh fab four p4p I would say

Duran
Hagler
Leonard
Hearns

How is Duran rated higher he lost all big fights like.

Wilfredo Benitez
Kirkland Laing
Marvin Hagler
Thomas Hearns in brutal fashion
Robbie Sims


His best wins were Iran Barkley and Pipino Cuevas and Davey Moore and he lost to guys like Laing and Simms who he shouldn't of lost to no way is Duran the best of the 4.

You obviously know more than almost all the respected boxing writers in the world that almost unanimously have Duran in the top 5 fighters of all time.

Problem is that you have not seen his career as a lightweight which is where he is a should be rated. He had already had 75 fights before any of the fights you mentioned and the loses were after he moved up atleast 2 weights - he was 71-1 at Lightweight FFS. Beat Sugar Ray Leonard at Welter, was level after 12 against Hagler at Middle all of this after over 70 fights!!

He started his career at 119 pounds, was 5'7 and had a 26" reach, is it really a surprisde that he lost to 6'1 Thomas Hearns at 154 pounds??

When you make comments like this about Duran you come across as a 'Johnnycomelately" whose only knowledge of Duran's career is what you have seen on Boxrec

And Chavez was 89-0 before he lost he should be top 5 aswell then ?? im making comments on what i think about Duran and 5 is way too high imo he only beat 2 good names at Lightweight Ken and Esteban and them 2 names shouldn't make you top 5 yes he had amazing record but top 5 of all time ?? surley not.


He started his career at 119 pounds, was 5'7 and had a 26" reach, is it really a surprisde that he lost to 6'1 Thomas Hearns at 154 pounds??

It doesn't matter he still lost in brutal fashion Duran lost most of the big fights like losing the trilogy against Leonard losing to Hagler yes he gave good account of himself but still lost he lost to Hearns in 2 rounds and he lost to Wilfredo Benitez and just because i disagree i have to look up on boxrec ?? i have watched many Duran fights and have studied up on him not on boxrec either.

I agree with you ICB that Duran is not an all time top 5 P4P but is an all time top 5 LW........

You have to cut him some slack on the Hearns starching though.........I don't care who you are from 140-160 if you were caught with that shot flush you were laying down........Almost without question...With the exception of Marvin Hagler who seemed to have the chin of freaking GRANITE!!!!!....

Also these guys were the elite of all time....The speed the heart the power every single one of them from the 80's Duran, Hagler, Leonard, Hearns....Just in a whole different league then everyone else



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