Are people giving Taylor too much flack?

[sexydarin]

He's not getting flak for the fights he's taking, it's his lack of a killer instinct. He almost lost the fight to winky wright because he backed off in the last round.

[Gutbuster]

I hear that, it just seems to me like you can't blame the guy for being a bit more cautious when he's fighting top tier guys who have awkward styles and specialize in defense and countering. These were more experienced fighters who have racked up wins by making people pay for every mistake.

I'm not saying that your question isn't valid, but I think he definitely gets more flak and less credit than he should.

[Mar]

Funny to see how MUCH flack he is taking........the guy is currently and undeafeated champion, for the poor guy always winning isn't enough.

[jman]

You know, JT has gotten alot of heat that is really undeserved becuause he did win those fights, but he did not do it by KO so no one wants to accept it. If you think JT didnt win all those fights, dont blame him, blame the judges, as for JT, he did his job, he went into the ring and fought and faced whoever got put in front of him like a champ should do. He gladly wanted the rematch with hopkins, he gladly wanted the fight with Winky, he even told winky he'd fight him again but winky declined. Now say what you want, but taylor beat pretty hard on wink in that fight, winks says he dont want to fight JT because he'll just get ripped off again, but I think he felt JT's power and knew that he might get knocked out if he were to get back in for 12 more rounds.

Now onto the so called softer spoken pavlik. I like pavlik, he seems like a nice guy who respects his opponents, well so was JT and for the most part he still is. I'd get riled up in his situation way more than he does, I mean its got to be disheartening with all his hard work that no one seems to respect him or what hes accomplished, and most would agree that taylor is one of the nicest kindest guys to come along in boxing in a long time, so is pavlik but maybe kelly should take a closer look at the way JT's been treated and get a little meaner with everyone, afterall, taylor went the nice guy route and has received nothing but troubles and turmoil from the media and the fans because of it, I feel sorry for the guy, hes in a no win situation. Just remember, JT has always been respectful and soft spoken just like pavlik, I personally dont see how JT keeps his cool so much with everyone badgering him all the time, probabaly becasue he is a nice guy and they take advantage because they know his nature allows them to push and prod at him beyond the norm. Its a shame our society finally gets a champ who isnt or hasnt been in jail, doesnt do drugs or neglect his family, respects the hard working people who buy the tickets because he knows what it feels like to have nothing............yet the fans the media and society in general want to crucify the guy for being a standup hard working honest man. You guys want the truth, HBO promotes JT becasue of the way he is, becasue of the good things I mentioned, Since lennox Lewis, they've not had much to hang their hats on, most of them have been thugs that cant stay out of trouble, so there you have it, he is champ, he worked for it, he did not dodge anyone and even took the winky fight instead of an easier fight, hes respectful to everyone and all folks want to do is discredit his rep and stomp him in the ground, I tell ya, when you stop and think about the way JT gets treated by most its really shamefull. If they ever treat kelly pavlik that way it will be shamefull once more, neither one of them deserve to go thru that kind of crap

[ICB]

You know, JT has gotten alot of heat that is really undeserved becuause he did win those fights, but he did not do it by KO so no one wants to accept it. If you think JT didnt win all those fights, dont blame him, blame the judges, as for JT, he did his job, he went into the ring and fought and faced whoever got put in front of him like a champ should do. He gladly wanted the rematch with hopkins, he gladly wanted the fight with Winky, he even told winky he'd fight him again but winky declined. Now say what you want, but taylor beat pretty hard on wink in that fight, winks says he dont want to fight JT because he'll just get ripped off again, but I think he felt JT's power and knew that he might get knocked out if he were to get back in for 12 more rounds.

Now onto the so called softer spoken pavlik. I like pavlik, he seems like a nice guy who respects his opponents, well so was JT and for the most part he still is. I'd get riled up in his situation way more than he does, I mean its got to be disheartening with all his hard work that no one seems to respect him or what hes accomplished, and most would agree that taylor is one of the nicest kindest guys to come along in boxing in a long time, so is pavlik but maybe kelly should take a closer look at the way JT's been treated and get a little meaner with everyone, afterall, taylor went the nice guy route and has received nothing but troubles and turmoil from the media and the fans because of it, I feel sorry for the guy, hes in a no win situation. Just remember, JT has always been respectful and soft spoken just like pavlik, I personally dont see how JT keeps his cool so much with everyone badgering him all the time, probabaly becasue he is a nice guy and they take advantage because they know his nature allows them to push and prod at him beyond the norm. Its a shame our society finally gets a champ who isnt or hasnt been in jail, doesnt do drugs or neglect his family, respects the hard working people who buy the tickets because he knows what it feels like to have nothing............yet the fans the media and society in general want to crucify the guy for being a standup hard working honest man. You guys want the truth, HBO promotes JT becasue of the way he is, becasue of the good things I mentioned, Since lennox Lewis, they've not had much to hang their hats on, most of them have been thugs that cant stay out of trouble, so there you have it, he is champ, he worked for it, he did not dodge anyone and even took the winky fight instead of an easier fight, hes respectful to everyone and all folks want to do is discredit his rep and stomp him in the ground, I tell ya, when you stop and think about the way JT gets treated by most its really shamefull. If they ever treat kelly pavlik that way it will be shamefull once more, neither one of them deserve to go thru that kind of crap

You know, JT has gotten alot of heat that is really undeserved becuause he did win those fights, but he did not do it by KO so no one wants to accept it. If you think JT didnt win all those fights, dont blame him, blame the judges, as for JT, he did his job, he went into the ring and fought and faced whoever got put in front of him like a champ should do. He gladly wanted the rematch with hopkins, he gladly wanted the fight with Winky, he even told winky he'd fight him again but winky declined. Now say what you want, but taylor beat pretty hard on wink in that fight, winks says he dont want to fight JT because he'll just get ripped off again, but I think he felt JT's power and knew that he might get knocked out if he were to get back in for 12 more rounds.

No your totally wrong no one goes off that he didn't ko fighters like Hopkins and Wright its nothing to do with that its based on Taylor and his gift decisions against natural Welterweight Spinks Winky, Hopkins, im tired of him relying on the judges all the time and his lacklusture performances i think he should have atleast 2 losses on his record and as for Winky vs Taylor what fight were you watching Taylor beat on Winky pretty hard huh ?? i seem to remember Taylor's eye almost closed and Winky landing more power shots and also more than 60 punches overall and was catching alot of Taylor's punches on the arms and gloves so i don't know what fight you was watching but Taylor certainly did not look like a winner in my eyes i had Taylor losing the fight.


Now onto the so called softer spoken pavlik. I like pavlik, he seems like a nice guy who respects his opponents, well so was JT and for the most part he still is. I'd get riled up in his situation way more than he does, I mean its got to be disheartening with all his hard work that no one seems to respect him or what hes accomplished, and most would agree that taylor is one of the nicest kindest guys to come along in boxing in a long time, so is pavlik but maybe kelly should take a closer look at the way JT's been treated and get a little meaner with everyone, afterall, taylor went the nice guy route and has received nothing but troubles and turmoil from the media and the fans because of it, I feel sorry for the guy, hes in a no win situation. Just remember, JT has always been respectful and soft spoken just like pavlik, I personally dont see how JT keeps his cool so much with everyone badgering him all the time, probabaly becasue he is a nice guy and they take advantage because they know his nature allows them to push and prod at him beyond the norm. Its a shame our society finally gets a champ who isnt or hasnt been in jail, doesnt do drugs or neglect his family, respects the hard working people who buy the tickets because he knows what it feels like to have nothing............yet the fans the media and society in general want to crucify the guy for being a standup hard working honest man. You guys want the truth, HBO promotes JT becasue of the way he is, becasue of the good things I mentioned, Since lennox Lewis, they've not had much to hang their hats on, most of them have been thugs that cant stay out of trouble, so there you have it, he is champ, he worked for it, he did not dodge anyone and even took the winky fight instead of an easier fight, hes respectful to everyone and all folks want to do is discredit his rep and stomp him in the ground, I tell ya, when you stop and think about the way JT gets treated by most its really shamefull. If they ever treat kelly pavlik that way it will be shamefull once more, neither one of them deserve to go thru that kind of crap

I couldn't careless if he is a nice guy or not this isn't popularity contest this is boxing and i don't like his lackluster performances or his boring fights or his gift decisions Middleweight division has been boring for ages with Hopkins as champion and now Taylor i hope Pavlik wins so we can see some exciting fights again in Middleweight division.

[zhubin]

I'm a little torn when it comes to Taylor. There is no question he is extremely talented and has a lot of potential. He started off his career on a near perfect note...utilizing his outstanding jab and athleticism. He then fought against two of the toughest and craftiest boxers in Hopkins and Wright. Those fights...whether you think he won/lost/drew...where very close. I cannot overstate the fact that it is damn near impossible to "look good" against fighters like Hopkins and Wright...not to mention Spinks. In these fights Taylor has lost his original style and comfort level. He now seems like a fighter trying figure himself out in the ring. This is particularly frustrating considering he has all the tools...athleticism, smarts, and great skill (especially his jab). He needs this fight against Pavlik...against a fighter who will pressure him and force him to respond. He needs to show some fire and just let go. So right now i'm reserving judgment on Taylor. I can understand him not looking spectacular against his recent opponents. But he should have no excuses in his upcoming fight. He needs to step up...win, lose or draw...and show a spark.

[Violent Demise]

Outstanding observation by William Dettloff (Ring Magazine). I see the same outcome

It is accepted as truth that Taylor has been unraveling at a steady clip since his consecutive wins over Bernard Hopkins, the first of which initiated this difficult and unhappy tenure as the world’s top 160-pound fighter. Indeed, his stock has dropped with every appearance since, despite the existence of an unpopular truth: He has yet to lose in the ring. But even his most loyal supporters concede that the “easier” the opponent is supposed to be—and make no mistake, Kassim Ouma and Cory Spinks were intended to be easy fights—the worse Taylor has looked.

Kelly Pavlik, by contrast, looked superb in beating down and stopping Edison Miranda last time out, and looked about as good mugging the tough but coarse Jose Luis Zertuche before that. So far as any of us can tell, he’s never looked as bad against anyone as Taylor did stumbling after Spinks or while getting backed up by the smaller, apparently under-powered Ouma. It is for this reason that although the wise guys see this as a pick-’em fight, many fans see Pavlik as a clear favorite.

It’s easy to see why people are picking Pavlik: Taylor has under-performed in his most recent fights, against 154-pounders no less, while Pavlik has emerged as a big, strong, power-hitting middleweight. But it’s not that simple. Ouma is an easy fight for no one (ask Verno Phillips) and Taylor whipped him clearly, if unspectacularly. And Spinks will make a lot more guys look awful before he’s done. It’s what he does. Zertuche and Miranda, on the other hand, were sitting ducks for Pavlik’s ballsy, heavy-handed attack. Tough as they were, he couldn’t have asked for more willing targets.

The best thing to do for a fighter who’s having an identity crisis is to put him in with a well-regarded opponent whom he can hit hard and hit often. That tends to clean things up nicely. Taylor will hit Pavlik hard and he will hit him often. He’ll take some in return too, and that’s all right. At the end he’ll know, either way, who he is, and we will too. My pick: Taylor by decision or late stoppage.

[ICB]

Outstanding observation by William Dettloff (Ring Magazine). I see the same outcome

It is accepted as truth that Taylor has been unraveling at a steady clip since his consecutive wins over Bernard Hopkins, the first of which initiated this difficult and unhappy tenure as the world’s top 160-pound fighter. Indeed, his stock has dropped with every appearance since, despite the existence of an unpopular truth: He has yet to lose in the ring. But even his most loyal supporters concede that the “easier” the opponent is supposed to be—and make no mistake, Kassim Ouma and Cory Spinks were intended to be easy fights—the worse Taylor has looked.

Kelly Pavlik, by contrast, looked superb in beating down and stopping Edison Miranda last time out, and looked about as good mugging the tough but coarse Jose Luis Zertuche before that. So far as any of us can tell, he’s never looked as bad against anyone as Taylor did stumbling after Spinks or while getting backed up by the smaller, apparently under-powered Ouma. It is for this reason that although the wise guys see this as a pick-’em fight, many fans see Pavlik as a clear favorite.

It’s easy to see why people are picking Pavlik: Taylor has under-performed in his most recent fights, against 154-pounders no less, while Pavlik has emerged as a big, strong, power-hitting middleweight. But it’s not that simple. Ouma is an easy fight for no one (ask Verno Phillips) and Taylor whipped him clearly, if unspectacularly. And Spinks will make a lot more guys look awful before he’s done. It’s what he does. Zertuche and Miranda, on the other hand, were sitting ducks for Pavlik’s ballsy, heavy-handed attack. Tough as they were, he couldn’t have asked for more willing targets.

The best thing to do for a fighter who’s having an identity crisis is to put him in with a well-regarded opponent whom he can hit hard and hit often. That tends to clean things up nicely. Taylor will hit Pavlik hard and he will hit him often. He’ll take some in return too, and that’s all right. At the end he’ll know, either way, who he is, and we will too. My pick: Taylor by decision or late stoppage.

Ouma is an easy fight for no one (ask Verno Phillips)


Lets ask Agustin Silva aswelli seem to remember Silva dropped Ouma 3 times in the first round and winning in the first round aswell.

Or lets ask Roman Karmazin who decked Ouma twice and won a decision alot easier than what Taylor managed to do.

[Violent Demise]

Outstanding observation by William Dettloff (Ring Magazine). I see the same outcome

It is accepted as truth that Taylor has been unraveling at a steady clip since his consecutive wins over Bernard Hopkins, the first of which initiated this difficult and unhappy tenure as the world’s top 160-pound fighter. Indeed, his stock has dropped with every appearance since, despite the existence of an unpopular truth: He has yet to lose in the ring. But even his most loyal supporters concede that the “easier” the opponent is supposed to be—and make no mistake, Kassim Ouma and Cory Spinks were intended to be easy fights—the worse Taylor has looked.

Kelly Pavlik, by contrast, looked superb in beating down and stopping Edison Miranda last time out, and looked about as good mugging the tough but coarse Jose Luis Zertuche before that. So far as any of us can tell, he’s never looked as bad against anyone as Taylor did stumbling after Spinks or while getting backed up by the smaller, apparently under-powered Ouma. It is for this reason that although the wise guys see this as a pick-’em fight, many fans see Pavlik as a clear favorite.

It’s easy to see why people are picking Pavlik: Taylor has under-performed in his most recent fights, against 154-pounders no less, while Pavlik has emerged as a big, strong, power-hitting middleweight. But it’s not that simple. Ouma is an easy fight for no one (ask Verno Phillips) and Taylor whipped him clearly, if unspectacularly. And Spinks will make a lot more guys look awful before he’s done. It’s what he does. Zertuche and Miranda, on the other hand, were sitting ducks for Pavlik’s ballsy, heavy-handed attack. Tough as they were, he couldn’t have asked for more willing targets.

The best thing to do for a fighter who’s having an identity crisis is to put him in with a well-regarded opponent whom he can hit hard and hit often. That tends to clean things up nicely. Taylor will hit Pavlik hard and he will hit him often. He’ll take some in return too, and that’s all right. At the end he’ll know, either way, who he is, and we will too. My pick: Taylor by decision or late stoppage.

Ouma is an easy fight for no one (ask Verno Phillips)


Lets ask Agustin Silva aswell i seem to remember Silva dropped Ouma 3 times in the first round and winning in the first round aswell.

Or lets ask Roman Karmazin who decked Ouma and won a decision alot easier than what Taylor managed to do.

The Silva fight was in 1999. Ouma's 10th pro fight. Ouma has clearly improved since than. You know better than to hold that against him. As for Karmazin? I don't buy Ouma's excuse that he was sick. That's pretty lame. But Karmazin is a good fighter. And Ouma showed some heart in getting up from the 2 knock downs and finishing the fight. Ouma is a good fighter

[ICB]

Outstanding observation by William Dettloff (Ring Magazine). I see the same outcome

It is accepted as truth that Taylor has been unraveling at a steady clip since his consecutive wins over Bernard Hopkins, the first of which initiated this difficult and unhappy tenure as the world’s top 160-pound fighter. Indeed, his stock has dropped with every appearance since, despite the existence of an unpopular truth: He has yet to lose in the ring. But even his most loyal supporters concede that the “easier” the opponent is supposed to be—and make no mistake, Kassim Ouma and Cory Spinks were intended to be easy fights—the worse Taylor has looked.

Kelly Pavlik, by contrast, looked superb in beating down and stopping Edison Miranda last time out, and looked about as good mugging the tough but coarse Jose Luis Zertuche before that. So far as any of us can tell, he’s never looked as bad against anyone as Taylor did stumbling after Spinks or while getting backed up by the smaller, apparently under-powered Ouma. It is for this reason that although the wise guys see this as a pick-’em fight, many fans see Pavlik as a clear favorite.

It’s easy to see why people are picking Pavlik: Taylor has under-performed in his most recent fights, against 154-pounders no less, while Pavlik has emerged as a big, strong, power-hitting middleweight. But it’s not that simple. Ouma is an easy fight for no one (ask Verno Phillips) and Taylor whipped him clearly, if unspectacularly. And Spinks will make a lot more guys look awful before he’s done. It’s what he does. Zertuche and Miranda, on the other hand, were sitting ducks for Pavlik’s ballsy, heavy-handed attack. Tough as they were, he couldn’t have asked for more willing targets.

The best thing to do for a fighter who’s having an identity crisis is to put him in with a well-regarded opponent whom he can hit hard and hit often. That tends to clean things up nicely. Taylor will hit Pavlik hard and he will hit him often. He’ll take some in return too, and that’s all right. At the end he’ll know, either way, who he is, and we will too. My pick: Taylor by decision or late stoppage.

Ouma is an easy fight for no one (ask Verno Phillips)


Lets ask Agustin Silva aswell i seem to remember Silva dropped Ouma 3 times in the first round and winning in the first round aswell.

Or lets ask Roman Karmazin who decked Ouma and won a decision alot easier than what Taylor managed to do.

The Silva fight was in 1999. Ouma's 10th pro fight. Ouma has clearly improved since than. You know better than to hold that against him. As for Karmazin? I don't buy Ouma's excuse that he was sick. That's pretty lame. But Karmazin is a good fighter. And Ouma showed some heart in getting up from the 2 knock downs and finishing the fight. Ouma is a good fighter

Im not holding it against him i just loved how that article said Ouma is not an easy fight for anyone and compared a fight with a goodish fighter like Phillips i was just pointing out how Silva finished him off in the first round and how Roman Karmazin outpointed Ouma alot easier than what Taylor managed to do and plus Ouma had never fought at Middleweight and managed to bully Taylor and plus he was outpointed by Roman Karmazin at his more comfortable fighting weight if Ouma managed to bully Taylor and give him a run for his money can you imagine what Pavlik will do ??

[LeftHookToTheBody]

No your totally wrong no one goes off that he didn't ko fighters like Hopkins and Wright its nothing to do with that its based on Taylor and his gift decisions against natural Welterweight Spinks Winky, Hopkins,

Gift decisions? OK, against Wright and Hopkins, all three of those bouts were debatable, but none were out right robberies. They were all very close fights by any standard. Personally, I had him 1-2 in those three fights, losing Hopkins I and against Wright and winning Hopkins II. But all three fights were razor close. He more or less fought them to a stand still. If you fight two of the top five p4p fighters in the world to a stand still in three bouts, you are a damned good fighter, period.

Now, on to Spinks. To say that was a "gift decision" is just about the most absurd thing I have ever heard of. Spinks was in survival mode from the opening bell and did nothing, NOTHING, to come close to earning a decision to lift the middleweight championship. It was a lackluster, dull performance from Taylor, sure, but Spinks did even less. The judge who scored it 117-111 Spinks should never be allowed to judge another fight, as Lamphley rightly noted. I am stunned that anyone would call that a "gift decision." That is just crazy.

[ICB]

No your totally wrong no one goes off that he didn't ko fighters like Hopkins and Wright its nothing to do with that its based on Taylor and his gift decisions against natural Welterweight Spinks Winky, Hopkins,

Gift decisions? OK, against Wright and Hopkins, all three of those bouts were debatable, but none were out right robberies. They were all very close fights by any standard. Personally, I had him 1-2 in those three fights, losing Hopkins I and against Wright and winning Hopkins II. But all three fights were razor close. He more or less fought them to a stand still. If you fight two of the top five p4p fighters in the world to a stand still in three bouts, you are a damned good fighter, period.

Now, on to Spinks. To say that was a "gift decision" is just about the most absurd thing I have ever heard of. Spinks was in survival mode from the opening bell and did nothing, NOTHING, to come close to earning a decision to lift the middleweight championship. It was a lackluster, dull performance from Taylor, sure, but Spinks did even less. The judge who scored it 117-111 Spinks should never be allowed to judge another fight, as Lamphley rightly noted. I am stunned that anyone would call that a "gift decision." That is just crazy.

Now, on to Spinks. To say that was a "gift decision" is just about the most absurd thing I have ever heard of. Spinks was in survival mode from the opening bell and did nothing, NOTHING, to come close to earning a decision to lift the middleweight championship. It was a lackluster, dull performance from Taylor, sure, but Spinks did even less. The judge who scored it 117-111 Spinks should never be allowed to judge another fight, as Lamphley rightly noted. I am stunned that anyone would call that a "gift decision." That is just crazy.


Yes thats why we had a poll here and i believe 25 voted Spinks and 25 voted Taylor and most people had the fight razor thin close on this forum so i guess all are scorecards are absurd then and you are almighty god and know all

And you think i care what Lampley says ?? is he an expert ?? no does he shout about punches not landing ?? yes

[LeftHookToTheBody]

Well, maybe you can explain to me what you saw that earned Spinks the middleweight championship of the world? I saw a guy who was in survival mode, who knew he was physically overmatched but took the fight to get a paycheck and survive, who landed a pot shot here and there (but never anything of substance) and immediately retreated. Even if you thought he won, surely he did not do enough to where you could call it a robbery? I really would like to know what you saw and under what criteria you scored the thing.

[ICB]

Well, maybe you can explain to me what you saw that earned Spinks the middleweight championship of the world? I saw a guy who was in survival mode, who knew he was physically overmatched but took the fight to get a paycheck and survive, who landed a pot shot here and there (but never anything of substance) and immediately retreated. Even if you thought he won, surely he did not do enough to where you could call it a robbery? I really would like to know what you saw and under what criteria you scored the thing.

I didn't call it a robbery i said most people think it was a gift decision i had the fight very close fact of the matter is Taylor was lacklusture against natural Welterweight and didn't even really try Spinks was the one throwing alot more punches than Taylor.

[Kev]

Well, maybe you can explain to me what you saw that earned Spinks the middleweight championship of the world? I saw a guy who was in survival mode, who knew he was physically overmatched but took the fight to get a paycheck and survive, who landed a pot shot here and there (but never anything of substance) and immediately retreated. Even if you thought he won, surely he did not do enough to where you could call it a robbery? I really would like to know what you saw and under what criteria you scored the thing.

I didn't call it a robbery i said most people think it was a gift decision i had the fight very close fact of the matter is Taylor was lacklusture against natural Welterweight and didn't even really try Spinks was the one throwing alot more punches than Taylor.

Hey Ice buddy it seems like every thread I open now you're right there in the trenches going to war with other posters. You must be up there as one of the most relentlessly argumentative guys on Saddos now.

Keep up the good work