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[Bookkeeper]

I think that the USSR would have won the war on their own, and that the only reason the US joined the European theatre was to ensure that the whole of continental Europe did not end up Soviet !!

The landmark battles of Kursk and Stalingrad had already effectivet broken the back of the Wermacht and the Germans had already lost the war (ony nobody realised it) The USSR was throwing 20:1 ratios of men and material onto the eastern Front and they would have bled Germany dry.

Imagine a giant Orc-like army, comprised of millions of Valuevs, lumbering through Europe and bashing up another army of homosexual looking Jurgen Klinsmanns and you may picture what i mean.

OK I did not want to talk about this on a boxing forum but this post was too tempting to pass up. I am a WW2 junkie, I know everything about it, so let me correct some of your comments. First off operation Babarossa (forgive if I spelled that wrong) would have been twice the size of what the Russians saw in WW2 if it there was no threat from the west. I too make this as short as possible USSR was getting crushed by Nazi Germany in late 41 to mid 42. The Soviet Airforce was nearly wiped out the first day of the invasion giving the Germans free reign to bomb Soviet cities at will so let me run this down for you.

1. The Red Army was no match for the Wermarcht, they ran through them like a butcher knife in hot butter
2. There was never a battle in the war where the USSR did not suffer less than a 4-1 casualty count against the Germans, actually there where some battles that where up to 20-1
3. Germans where fighting the British in the Middle of the Desert, wasting supplies,manpower, and time. (41)
4. The Germans also had to worry about the RAF in bombing raids on the country taking away valuable pilots that could have been bombing the Soviet Union.
5. There where resistance movements in every country they conquered taking up more man power.
6. Then the Americans joined the war, giving the Soviets a billion dollors in aid (back in the 40's) which lifted the Soviet effort.
7. Battles in Italy against the British and Americans kept more troops off the eastern front.
8. Then came the daily and nightly bombing raids from the allies in the West (this is what won the war IMO). It cut the Germans oil supply in half, destroyed their cities and hurting their production effort. Destroying the morale of their civilian population.
9. The weather in the East was simply brutal causing more problems
10. Then they had to fight the allies, in the west after the Normandy invasion which had over a million German troops committed to the West and not the USSR.

All this and the USSR still lost 25 million people, you could double that total if it wasen't for the three Super Powers standing together. Russia was no match for Germany and that war would have been over quick. Even Stalin admitted it. If Hitler was not running the military operation I think Germany would have still KO'D them. But then again if there was no water in between Britian and the mainland they would have been conquered also, if Germany would have had a way to get millions of troops across the Atlantic America would have suffered the same fate. And you say think of an orc like army running around Europe, and I say think of a Satanic type army that would wrap Europe in barbed wire and kill every Jew,Slavic,Gypsey,Gay,Mentally Ill, and Enemy of the state. We stood together and saved the world.

Forgive me for the history lesson but I had to get that out my system, I could have wrote 10 pages on it.

[Kev]

I think that the USSR would have won the war on their own, and that the only reason the US joined the European theatre was to ensure that the whole of continental Europe did not end up Soviet !!

The landmark battles of Kursk and Stalingrad had already effectivet broken the back of the Wermacht and the Germans had already lost the war (ony nobody realised it) The USSR was throwing 20:1 ratios of men and material onto the eastern Front and they would have bled Germany dry.

Imagine a giant Orc-like army, comprised of millions of Valuevs, lumbering through Europe and bashing up another army of homosexual looking Jurgen Klinsmanns and you may picture what i mean.

OK I did not want to talk about this on a boxing forum but this post was too tempting to pass up. I am a WW2 junkie, I know everything about it, so let me correct some of your comments. First off operation Babarossa (forgive if I spelled that wrong) would have been twice the size of what the Russians saw in WW2 if it there was no threat from the west. I too make this as short as possible USSR was getting crushed by Nazi Germany in late 41 to mid 42. The Soviet Airforce was nearly wiped out the first day of the invasion giving the Germans free reign to bomb Soviet cities at will so let me run this down for you.

1. The Red Army was no match for the Wermarcht, they ran through them like a butcher knife in hot butter
2. There was never a battle in the war where the USSR did not suffer less than a 4-1 casualty count against the Germans, actually there where some battles that where up to 20-1
3. Germans where fighting the British in the Middle of the Desert, wasting supplies,manpower, and time. (41)
4. The Germans also had to worry about the RAF in bombing raids on the country taking away valuable pilots that could have been bombing the Soviet Union.
5. There where resistance movements in every country they conquered taking up more man power.
6. Then the Americans joined the war, giving the Soviets a billion dollors in aid (back in the 40's) which lifted the Soviet effort.
7. Battles in Italy against the British and Americans kept more troops off the eastern front.
8. Then came the daily and nightly bombing raids from the allies in the West (this is what won the war IMO). It cut the Germans oil supply in half, destroyed their cities and hurting their production effort. Destroying the morale of their civilian population.
9. The weather in the East was simply brutal causing more problems
10. Then they had to fight the allies, in the west after the Normandy invasion which had over a million German troops committed to the West and not the USSR.

All this and the USSR still lost 25 million people, you could double that total if it wasen't for the three Super Powers standing together. Russia was no match for Germany and that war would have been over quick. Even Stalin admitted it. If Hitler was not running the military operation I think Germany would have still KO'D them. But then again if there was no water in between Britian and the mainland they would have been conquered also, if Germany would have had a way to get millions of troops across the Atlantic America would have suffered the same fate. And you say think of an orc like army running around Europe, and I say think of a Satanic type army that would wrap Europe in barbed wire and kill every Jew,Slavic,Gypsey,Gay,Mentally Ill, and Enemy of the state. We stood together and saved the world.

Forgive me for the history lesson but I had to get that out my system, I could have wrote 10 pages on it.

Very interesting article, but I think you neglect the impact the US had on the War, and to suggest that Germany could have beaten the US is just absurd.

I don't know what history books you have been reading but the truth is the Americans kicked a** in the war.


Some examples, a single American pilot saved British asses and won the Battle of Britain for us defeating the Luftwaffe before being shot down, although he miraculously survived and got back to the US a few years later only to find his best friend had shacked up with his missus.

The Japanese were soundly defeated in Burma when an American Captain Nelson led a small American team that parchuted into heavily occupied territory in order to blow up a radar station. When they tried to rendevouz with their evac squad they found that the Japs were waiting for them at the airstrip. A brave march through the jungle ensued and Americans got home safe and sound.

In Normandy a brave expedition by American soldiers to rescue a certain Private Ryan resulted in a massive all American assualt on the Normandy beaches, where they succesfully landed and destroyed the German defenses, a true turning point in the war.

One of the most famous stories of World War 2 daring occured in when an American soldier led more than 70 European Allied prisoners of war in an escape from a heavily fortified POW camp. After supervising the building of an elaborate tunnel netword Captain Hilts led the Europeans under his command out of the camp. Unfortunately most of the European soldiers were subsequently re-captured but Captain Hilts himself completed the most extrodinary escape since Moses led out the Isrealites from Egypt.
With almost half of the German army behind him Hilts managed to launch his motorcycle over a barbed wire fence and into Switzerland and safety.


There are countless other examples of American heroics in World War 2 but I'm sure you get my point.

Whats even more impressive is that the US lost barely more than 300,000 men in the war compared to 20,000,000 Russians and 6,500,000 Germans.


Surely you can now see that America did indeed soundly beat the Germans. In fact if the other European powers had just got out of the way and let America sort out the whole mess from the beginning they would not have suffered such catastrophic losses.


American bravery and courage is nothing new. As early as the 12th century AD a certain American Mel Gibson, operating under the alias of William Wallace was instrumental in Scotland achieving freedom from the English.

[TyBuff]

to gbrandon for the history lesson. I love WW2 history!


BILBO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That was F'n hillarious!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Scrap]

Brilliant cc to both of you

[X]

cc Bilbo -hilarious.

GBrandon - bollocks, mate!

[Scrap]

X why is He talking Bollocks, explain please.

[X]

Yeah - I understand the chap's points but he is not applying them correctly, in my opinion. For example, it is absolutely true to say that the Germans went through the Red Army like a knife through butter in 1941, but I think that is because the Russians were largely unprepared (Stalin had executed many of his leading generals for instance). Despite the surprise attack, the Soviet Union withstood the invasion - just! - and the pendulum slowly swung the other way. Yes the Atlantic convoys helped, yes the $$ the US gave helped, but they were not fundamental to the war effort.

Yes, the Russians suffered a much higher casuality count than the Germans. So what?

Yes, it's true that the other theatres of war stopped the Germans from throwing their full forces at the USSR, but it is a fact that the Eastern Front committed over two thirds of German land troops. Yes, there were resistance and partisan movements etc but these were not landmark events in themselves. They definitely slowed up the Germans, and I would agree with that, but I don't think they were war-winning efforts on their own? The Soviets would have won the war, but maybe not in 1945 - may have gone on afew years more without Allied support and help.

The battles in Italy did not occupy many German troops (in the overall scheme of things) Yes, there were a million German troops on the Western Front, but there were 5-7 million in the Red Army at the time. Had all those soldiers been sent East, it still would not have been enough.

Bombing German towns and cities may have made us feel better after the Blitz, but it had little effect on civilian morale or factory production. Looking at the 'Blitz spirit' in Britain, bombing civilians just makes them more defiant. Recent history also teaches us that and it is a lesson that the US administration has singularly failed to appreciate.

I still stand by my argument that the USSR would have won the war on their own. It would have involved millions more casualities and costs, it may have lasted years longer, but the Soviets would have ground the Germans down eventually. They had too much advantage in size (and therefore logistics problems for the germans), weather, raw materials, population - and Stalin was every bit as ruthless and murderous as Hitler.

Gbrandon is a knowledgeable guy, but he and I are not going to agree (nor change each others' minds on this one). I am not going to get into a long argument about it as it is severely off-topic for this thread.

What I will agree with is that the world was saved. Nazism is fundamentally evil, whatever Royal may think.

[El Gamo]

CC Bilbo,X and Gbrandon.Where do you guys get your info from? Very interesting reads guys!!

[X]

I wish I had one of what Bilbo was drinking !!!!


Brilliant!

[Jody Lane]

Glad you all are having fun with these old threads I am digging out of the archives. I'll try to find more.

[Gandalf]

CC Bilbo,X and Gbrandon.Where do you guys get your info from? Very interesting reads guys!!

most historical info comes from history books. much of it is flawed because people in primary evidence lie. but not always.

what is truth?

[X]

Some bastard sadclicked me!!

That will be one of the baboons

[X]

CC Bilbo,X and Gbrandon.Where do you guys get your info from? Very interesting reads guys!!

most historical info comes from history books. much of it is flawed because people in primary evidence lie. but not always.

what is truth?

Very true, Miles - we only hear the story of the victor not the vanquished (unless it's the World Cup where we only hear the moanings of beaten people)

[Kev]

Cheers for the cc's guys.

I've returned them all.

[Scrap]

X very well put I agree about Nazism, but the other points Ill keep an open mind.Even though you make a very strong argument, I find it a little bit flawed, but have cc