Was Muhammad Ali really the best

[match]

Ali reigned in the greatest HW era of all time, When he started in the early 1960's the level of competition was about the same as it was during the reign of Marciano with the exception of Charles and Joe Walcott,

Ali beat Liston...A man still considered one of the mos feared fighters of all time....(Lets avoid the whole fix in the second and mob ties bullshit that usually follows shall we)...He beat Frazier....(Lets not start saying well Joe was smaller then todays guys and would have lost in the 90's)....He beat a vicious George Foreman.....

Ali beat every contender and then some there was to fight...Something I don't think anyone else can say with the exception of Louis...and Lewis...

The contenders back then were more skilled then most champions are today....

Ali reinvented himself no less then 3 times...

He went from lighting quick kid who had the reflexes of a lightweight in the early parts.....

He became a fighter that used the mental game to get into fighters heads...Used flash and was the master of dirty fighting...yes ALI was dirty (and I am a fan)...On his best day Bernard Hopkins who prides himself on such things is not a tenth as ring savvy as Ali was...Ali hit and held, hit behind the head, hit after the bell....but it worked for him

He became a fighter that used his tremendous chin to actually let guys punch themselves out.....

Two of his 5 losses were waayyy past his best..Berbick and Spinks)...Rumor still circulates to the fact he lost the Spinks bout on purpose so he could regain the title one last time and be the first man to hold the title 3 times...knowing he was winding down and it was possibly his Last chance to really accomplish anything....Even his loss to Homes was past his best....

(Though that is in no way a dig at Holmes Larry was a great champion in his own right)....

There is no shame in losing a bout to Ken Norton...Ken was a hard guy to fight and he had an odd style that was hard to adjust to...His other loss during his prime years was to Frazier a widely recognized top 10 all time HW....A loss that had to do with as much to atrition as Fraziers skill

He was never beaten in his prime handily....Also Ali lost 3 of his best years so in is return to the ring after exile was an Ali who had lost some of his youth...and just because a fighter gets knocked down does not take away from his skill......Sorry to break the news to some of the guys out there who seem to use that against many fighters throughout these boards....

Ali may have or may have not been the best HW of all time thus far...He is No less then second...He certainly fought better men in their prime then Louis or Marciano....Louis was KO'd flat in his prime years and Marciano had a great chin, stamina and will power but could not box for shit!...Fact not opinion...

It was Ali being able to reinvent himself so often, the fact Ali turned this sport into the mass publics eye, the fact Ali invented the mind game, the mega fights, the way he brought it all together at once when need be that made him the Greatest....There was more to it then skill alone.....

Anyone who questions Ali in even the slightest or feels he was not as good as made out to be...knows nothing about the sport of boxing

Excellent post! The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth!

[jmbtandy]

Oh and never beaten in his Prime, what about Frazier Ali was 29 years old, when was his prime then?

[DaxxKahn]

Ali's era was the most exiting in Heavyweight history, Foreman knocked out Frazier and Norton, Ali knocked out Foreman, Frazier beat Ali, Norton beat Ali, Young beat Foreman, Holmes beat Norton and Ali. Liston beat Patterson and Ali beat Liston. Ali was the most outspoken and loudest, and drew more media attention than anyone else but again the best I question it. Foreman fought over 28 years and lost the same amount of fights as Ali, Holmes went 48-0, I think a list of the top 5 can be made but no one can argue that a certain fighter can be labeled as the best. Johnson was the greatest of his era, Marciano of his, Louis of his, Ali of his, Holmes of his and Tyson of his. The argument can go on forever.... In Ali's era you could say it was the best batch of talent, or you could say there was a lot of well matched great fighters, depending on their styles they beat each other and created the most memorable entertainment. Regarding the comment of anyone doubting Ali being the best doesn't know anything about boxing, is just ignorant.

Ali also beat Frazier...You mention Frazier beating him but leave that part out.....Ali also beat Norton twice to Ken beating him once...

With wins over Patterson, Liston, Frazier and Foreman that make 4 of the best heavyweights of all time...When going by the list of most top analyst...

Also I said in my post

"Ali may or may not be the best heavyweight of all time thus far"...

I even stated he could possibly be ranked second....

Another thing you just seemed to over look...

I also made more emphasis on the fact he was the "Greatest HW" and stressed the whole picture surrounding Ali that made him so....

Before you try to get cute with me and post crap like..."Is Just Ignorant"...make sure you have all your facts together and have read everything the right way.....Or else you just make an idiot out of yourself

[DaxxKahn]

Oh and never beaten in his Prime, what about Frazier Ali was 29 years old, when was his prime then?

OHHH...as you try to get sarcastic again....I think I went back and edited my post to "Never beaten in his prime handily"....meaning he was never flat outclassed and beaten one sided...and the fact the elemts had something to do with the loss on top of the fgact he was just two fights back from a 3 year absence...3 of his best years age wise....

So do you want to keep trying to pick apart my post.....please do because each time I just make you look more and more like an amateur...

To be honest you are making it too easy not too

[jmbtandy]

Oh we are playing that game, yes you insulting me makes me look like an idiot, mmm really ok,

Ali was beaten convincingly by Frazier the 1st time (In his Prime), the other two fights he certainly made up for that and switched the results, Norton was unlucky not to get all the decisions against Ali where as Foreman destroyed Norton twice.

Feel free to pick apart anything that I have written, that's what makes this interesting, not everyone is going to have the same views. Just because my view doesn't match yours how does that make me an amateur? In website chats yes I am am amateur, I have never really bothered with them before, which is a shame as I am quite enjoying this one, but in regards to boxing I assure you I know what I am talking about.

Keep em coming

[El Kabong]

Louis lost 3 times. Why don't you rank Marciano over him?

Louis defended his title successfully 25 times, he gave Rocky a hard fight in the twilight of his career, he lost once before his prime and then 2 other times much later in his career.

Joe Louis lost 2 years of his prime due to the war and he went a stretch of 14 years without being beaten.

Patterson and Liston don't belong on ANY "greatest heavyweights of all time" list...they might be top 20 but they aren't top 10 like Ezzard Charles and Joe Walcott.


Daxx you can love on Ali all you want to but not me...I'm not a sheep and I don't buy into this myth that has become Ali. Don't try and call me a bad boxing fan for not blindly putting Ali at #1...I've thought out my opinion and the more you want to call me ignorant and stupid the more stubborn I will be so it's probably best you drop it.

"Anyone who questions Ali in even the slightest or feels he was not as good as made out to be...knows nothing about the sport of boxing"

So do I know nothing about boxing? When did it become wrong to question a fighter? People question Rocky to hell and back and as I said before #1 He never lost #2 he was the underdog for the most part and #3 he fought better competition than people give him credit for.


But nooooo I get called every name in the book AND I get accused of being a racist to boot. What a great legacy Ali's fans are putting into place.....as giant assholes

[DaxxKahn]

Louis lost 3 times. Why don't you rank Marciano over him?

Louis defended his title successfully 25 times, he gave Rocky a hard fight in the twilight of his career, he lost once before his prime and then 2 other times much later in his career.

Joe Louis lost 2 years of his prime due to the war and he went a stretch of 14 years without being beaten.

Patterson and Liston don't belong on ANY "greatest heavyweights of all time" list...they might be top 20 but they aren't top 10 like Ezzard Charles and Joe Walcott.


Daxx you can love on Ali all you want to but not me...I'm not a sheep and I don't buy into this myth that has become Ali. Don't try and call me a bad boxing fan for not blindly putting Ali at #1...I've thought out my opinion and the more you want to call me ignorant and stupid the more stubborn I will be so it's probably best you drop it.

"Anyone who questions Ali in even the slightest or feels he was not as good as made out to be...knows nothing about the sport of boxing"

So do I know nothing about boxing? When did it become wrong to question a fighter? People question Rocky to hell and back and as I said before #1 He never lost #2 he was the underdog for the most part and #3 he fought better competition than people give him credit for.


But nooooo I get called every name in the book AND I get accused of being a racist to boot. What a great legacy Ali's fans are putting into place.....as giant assholes

Yeah Lyle ANYONE who questions if Ali was a great fighter knows nothing about boxing...I will say it again ANYONE!!!!....You may not think he is the best of all time but many people don't...Just as many people put Louis as #1 as Ali...Personally it is a toss up...But as a whole no one was as influential to the sport as Ali...

As for the Racist shit get the fuck off of it seems almost every fucking thread your involved in over the last few days you mention the words...I am not a racist>....


Who the fuck said anything about yopu being a racist?....Did you see one fucking thing where I mentioned you name at all?...NO YOU FUCKING DIDN"T....So maybe you are a racist fuck and I can give two shits...but don't fucking start bringing shit in that was nnever mentioned and who the fuck are you to tell me to drop anything?

[amat]

Lyle it's simple, if you look at what they did in the ring and in the ring only, there is no comparision. I know it's the extracurricular stuff that sours you to Ali but if you look at what he did between the ropes from the moment the bell rang then it's pretty clear who had the greater career. I mean Ali probably tripled Marciano's number of quality opponents if not more then that and he has by far the greater caliber of wins. I'm not trying to attack but that's just pretty obvious to see.

[DaxxKahn]

Oh we are playing that game, yes you insulting me makes me look like an idiot, mmm really ok,

Ali was beaten convincingly by Frazier the 1st time (In his Prime), the other two fights he certainly made up for that and switched the results, Norton was unlucky not to get all the decisions against Ali where as Foreman destroyed Norton twice.

Feel free to pick apart anything that I have written, that's what makes this interesting, not everyone is going to have the same views. Just because my view doesn't match yours how does that make me an amateur? In website chats yes I am am amateur, I have never really bothered with them before, which is a shame as I am quite enjoying this one, but in regards to boxing I assure you I know what I am talking about.

Keep em coming

You are the one who started trying to make my post look bad by leaving things out and mis-quoting me...you got called out on it...thats an insult?...you started trying to make my post look bad by using improper information and changing things around for your convienience...I called you out on it and I insulted you?....You tried to make yourself look like you were a know it all and were put in your place simple....

[El Kabong]

Well Daxx are you going to cry about it

Maybe you should just stop and think if it's ok for people to have different views. I have stated my views, I have supported my views, and yet I am the one berated...I didn't say ANYTHING bad about Ali and yet I just get attacked relentlessly.

Someone else brought up race Daxx, the whole arguement wasn't all about you...I wasn't even the one that started it but I HAD to respond to it because it's not the case and I wanted to make that clear...if it was the case the wouldn't Rocky have been #1 on my list?


As for the opponents, you can't choose who is fighting in your era, all you can do is beat them and all three of the fighters did that but Louis and Marciano were more successful in beating their opponents.


And can you settle the fuck down Daxx, I like you, you're a poster who has been around a long time and posts good well thought out stuff but right now you're trying to tell me my own opinion and that's what this is it's an opinion thread and I see things differently than you in this case and the reason I told you to drop it is because you're in full tantrum....I'm not trying to piss anyone off I'm just stating my own opinion and I am allowed to have one aren't I

[jmbtandy]

Oh we are playing that game, yes you insulting me makes me look like an idiot, mmm really ok,

Ali was beaten convincingly by Frazier the 1st time (In his Prime), the other two fights he certainly made up for that and switched the results, Norton was unlucky not to get all the decisions against Ali where as Foreman destroyed Norton twice.

Feel free to pick apart anything that I have written, that's what makes this interesting, not everyone is going to have the same views. Just because my view doesn't match yours how does that make me an amateur? In website chats yes I am am amateur, I have never really bothered with them before, which is a shame as I am quite enjoying this one, but in regards to boxing I assure you I know what I am talking about.

Keep em coming

You are the one who started trying to make my post look bad by leaving things out and mis-quoting me...you got called out on it...thats an insult?...you started trying to make my post look bad by using improper information and changing things around for your convienience...I called you out on it and I insulted you?....You tried to make yourself look like you were a know it all and were put in your place simple....

Am interested at which point did I try to make your post look bad?, you make all valid points, nothing was changed for my convenience, and i think you mentioned yourself you went back and altered it yourself. Read what you wrote you were the one throwing accusations of people not knowing what they were talking about or being amateurs because they don't agree with you.

[Spicoli]

Is it me or do most Ali themed threads always seem to generate this much .....Passion and Intensity?

[DaxxKahn]

Well Daxx are you going to cry about it

Maybe you should just stop and think if it's ok for people to have different views. I have stated my views, I have supported my views, and yet I am the one berated...I didn't say ANYTHING bad about Ali and yet I just get attacked relentlessly.

Someone else brought up race Daxx, the whole arguement wasn't all about you...I wasn't even the one that started it but I HAD to respond to it because it's not the case and I wanted to make that clear...if it was the case the wouldn't Rocky have been #1 on my list?


As for the opponents, you can't choose who is fighting in your era, all you can do is beat them and all three of the fighters did that but Louis and Marciano were more successful in beating their opponents.


And can you settle the fuck down Daxx, I like you, you're a poster who has been around a long time and posts good well thought out stuff but right now you're trying to tell me my own opinion and that's what this is it's an opinion thread and I see things differently than you in this case and the reason I told you to drop it is because you're in full tantrum....I'm not trying to piss anyone off I'm just stating my own opinion and I am allowed to have one aren't I

I understand you point Lyle and I apologize...Just when I read the whole part that told me I better drop it and the the whole racist thing being mentioned and I had never brought in race...and if you know anything about me over the years L:yle on here one thing I do not do is mention race....Insinuate anything about race or call people racist....I am always the guy that gets ticked when others mention it so I got more pissed...so between the two I blew up...

Me an you have always gotten along on here and more often or not I agree with you...I now I have repped you enough over time to show I usually agree...So that ticked me off a bit too because I could not understand how you just got so pissed and I never directed a thing towards you personally....


No harm no foul in my book mate....Hope all is a truce in your as well

[DaxxKahn]

Oh we are playing that game, yes you insulting me makes me look like an idiot, mmm really ok,

Ali was beaten convincingly by Frazier the 1st time (In his Prime), the other two fights he certainly made up for that and switched the results, Norton was unlucky not to get all the decisions against Ali where as Foreman destroyed Norton twice.

Feel free to pick apart anything that I have written, that's what makes this interesting, not everyone is going to have the same views. Just because my view doesn't match yours how does that make me an amateur? In website chats yes I am am amateur, I have never really bothered with them before, which is a shame as I am quite enjoying this one, but in regards to boxing I assure you I know what I am talking about.

Keep em coming

You are the one who started trying to make my post look bad by leaving things out and mis-quoting me...you got called out on it...thats an insult?...you started trying to make my post look bad by using improper information and changing things around for your convienience...I called you out on it and I insulted you?....You tried to make yourself look like you were a know it all and were put in your place simple....

Am interested at which point did I try to make your post look bad?, you make all valid points, nothing was changed for my convenience, and i think you mentioned yourself you went back and altered it yourself. Read what you wrote you were the one throwing accusations of people not knowing what they were talking about or being amateurs because they don't agree with you.

Don't ry to back peddal...and I edited the part about.... Ali never losing in his prime to...Ali never lost handily in his prime....Compare it yourself...My first post is Quoted in the post Match made and the edited version is up there now...you tell me the differences

[El Kabong]

We're cool man...no problem. I can understand your view as well, I just don't like people thinking I just committed the greatest sin in all of boxing when I put Ali at #3.


Ali in a fight vs either of those guys Ali would probably win but success during their careers Louis and Rocky did better IMO and that's what I was trying to get across